Faulty Logic, Faulty Theology

[MB]

Is the spirit of Adam haunting the doors of your church? [emoji317]

No is he yours because the Bible clearly teaches that the children are not responsible for the sins of there father neither is the father responsible for the sins of the children. Adam is a father to all of us including you.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

No God is not a liar Adam did die but his death was of the body. God did not say he would die spiritually, or when. This is the Calvinist Idea and it isn't true or God would have said he would die spiritually. I'm sorry but you seem to be full of assumptions. Take God's word for what it says and stop adding to it.
MB.

How is he adding to it? Does it or does it not say in the day you eat you will surely die?

 

[church mouse guy]

The death Paul speaks of as spiritual is not death as in not being mobile, but death means separated from God we become separated because of sin. This is the death Paul is speaking about. We are not born dead spiritually but we are once we sin. We are not responsible for Adam's sin Adam is.
MB

How come one has to be born again then?

 

[AustinC]

God does not create men dead in there sins. Men are born in to sin not born sinners. You need to read it again. With out your presumed ideas
MB.

Again with the Pelagian theology...

 

[JonC]

Ah I see what you are saying. What I still don't understand from @JonC is what does being dead in sin mean exactly? How does that relate to us? How does it relate to Adam pre-fall and post-fall?

I believe that "being dead in sin" is being "of the flesh". When I read Scripture the dichotomy I see is between the flesh and the spirit, so that may explain much of where we may disagree. Being "dead in sin" is being mastered by sin (being enslaved or in bondage to sin and death, or "the law of sin and death"). We still struggle between the flesh and spirit, but the flesh will perish (this is what I believe is referenced in Genesis - the death of the flesh and the necessity of being born again, made alive in the Spirit and by the Spirit).

 

[Dave G]

Men are born in to sin not born sinners. You need to read it again.

" Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." ( Psalms 58:2-3 ).

" But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:" ( Matthew 15:18-19 ).

 

[JonC]

There's a great pile of stuff not being addressed.
If God is not the author of evil, how come He creates a man dead in trespasses and sins?
How come the Scripture says that man was created upright if Adam was just a regular sinner from birth (Psalms 51:5)?
How come the 'good' creation became 'very good' after the creation of man if the man created was a sinner?
How come death entered the world through sin (Romans 5:12) if Adam was going to die whether he sinned or not?

That's it, Martin. God is not the author of evil (which is why we know that Adam was not "alive in the Spirit" as this type of life is described in Scripture). '

God created Adam natural man, NOT spiritual man (as evidenced by Scripture which states that God created Adam a natural being and not a spiritual being). But God created Adam natural, flesh AND upright. And Adam sinned.

I think if you try to read Scripture for what is actually stated you may find that there are no additions needed.

 

[HankD]

No is he yours because the Bible clearly teaches that the children are not responsible for the sins of there father neither is the father responsible for the sins of the children. Adam is a father to all of us including you.
MB

The Hebrew says "Dying you shall die the death"

Young's Literal Genesis 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Romans 5:12
YLT Romans 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

All the main verbs are aorist - when Adam sinned:

sin entered the world
death passed on all
all sinned

we are not responsible for Adam's sin because we were there WITH HIM - WE OURSELVES SINNED WITH HIM.

The meaning of Romans 5:12 - When Adam sinned we were there and sinned with Him.
There is NOTHING to commend us to God not even the so called "innocence" of infancy - NOTHING.

We are born dead in Adam.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[JonC]

Adam dying on the day he sinned is not in scripture therefore is not an interpretation but speculation.
MB

EXACTLY. Not only is it not in Scripture but other passages directly refute the idea. I really do not know why this conversation can continue except people are indoctrinated to a theology and will simply not rely on Scripture itself (what is actually written).

 

[Reformed1689]

I believe that "being dead in sin" is being "of the flesh". When I read Scripture the dichotomy I see is between the flesh and the spirit, so that may explain much of where we may disagree. Being "dead in sin" is being mastered by sin (being enslaved or in bondage to sin and death, or "the law of sin and death"). We still struggle between the flesh and spirit, but the flesh will perish (this is what I believe is referenced in Genesis - the death of the flesh and the necessity of being born again, made alive in the Spirit and by the Spirit).

If that is the case, then what was Adam before sin? You can't be dead in sin if you have not sinned.

 

[MartyF]

However, whichever translation one uses, the fact is that according to Ephesians 2:1, the Ephesians were dead, but they were still alive. There is a sense in which they were dead, but their hearts were still beating. So in what sense do you think they were dead?

First for contrast I'll link a picture of what I believe is wrong.

https://allinjoy.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/spirit-soul-body-demo.jpg

This greek philosophical model of the "human" is not Biblical especially when one looks at it from Old Testament point of view. A common memorized verse is

Mark 12:30 NLT
And you must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’

But Jesus was quoting

Deuteronomy 6:5 NLT
And you must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength.

Notice that mind is added. But it is more than that. Where the Greeks regularly separated these entities, in the Old Testament they were meant to mean all of you. You must love the Lord your God with everything - not you must love the Lord your God with your heart first, then your soul, then your mind, and finally with your strength.

Notice the difference?

This caused problems early on with the Greek society because they were constantly wanting to separate the body and the spirit. The Greek ideal being that the body was just a container for the spirit - like a ghost in a shell. This led to all sorts of bad interpretations like you can sin with your body however you want because your soul/spirit is separate and also Jesus was only spirit because if he had a physical body it would be sinful, etc.

So I'll point out some other passages.

Ezekiel 33:15 NLT
For instance, they might give back a debtor’s security, return what they have stolen, and obey my life-giving laws, no longer doing what is evil. If they do this, then they will surely live and not die.

Proverbs 14:27 NLT
Fear of the LORD is a life-giving fountain; it offers escape from the snares of death.

Deuteronomy 30:15 NLT
“Now listen! Today I am giving you a choice between life and death, between prosperity and disaster.

In these cases following God leads to life - not just spiritually, but physically, emotionally, mentally, and throughout your entire being is life. Those who chase after other things and not God's love and are literally dead. Physically, mentally, spiritually, completely dead. Their heart isn't beating. Their blood isn't flowing. They have no thoughts and their body is cold.

Sit down and take a look at those who aren't saved. Is any part of them alive? You say their hearts are beating, but after choosing death and destruction, are their hearts really beating. Or like a suicide bomber, is their heart just waiting for time up? They have given themselves over to death and destruction.

Ephesians 2:2 NLT
You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.

Can you understand how sad their existence is and why Jesus pitied them when he was on the cross?

So when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they were not just "spiritually dead"

Mentally, they were dead.

Genesis 3:7 NLT
At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves.

Their relationship with God was dead.

Genesis 3:10 NLT
He replied, “I heard you walking in the garden, so I hid. I was afraid because I was naked.”

Their relationship with each other was dead.

Genesis 3:12 NLT
The man replied, “It was the woman you gave me who gave me the fruit, and I ate it.”

Their power over Satan was dead.

Genesis 3:13 NLT
Then the LORD God asked the woman, “What have you done?” “The serpent deceived me,” she replied. “That’s why I ate it.”

They had chosen the path of death and to physically keep them alive forever was considered a very bad idea, so the tree of life was forbidden. In this way, death entered the world. However, from very early on, God provided ways for people to choose life.

 

[JonC]

If that is the case, then what was Adam before sin? You can't be dead in sin if you have not sinned.

Now you are being silly. I never said Adam was dead in sin prior to Adam sinning.

What does the Bible say?

Before sin Adam was as God had created him. Adam's eyes were not yet opened to be like God in knowing good and evil. Adam was "upright", "a living soul", "flesh,", "natural man", "not spiritual man".

The Bible tells us Adam was natural and not spiritual. In fact, the Bible gives no spiritual standing for Adam prior to the Fall.

Prior to the Fall Adam was "upright" and "natural". He was a living soul with a human nature (he was flesh".

David, please consider the following:

1. Why do you find it necessary to add to the Bible here?

2. Without your addition does the Bible seem inadequate towards your theology?

3. Does your theology stand without adding the concept of Adam being "spiritual" and "dying spiritually" to the Bible or does your theology depend on that addition?

A side note:

Have you ever considered the fact that Adam was not created in the Garden, but Adam was created "upright", "natural", "not spiritual", "flesh", "a living soul" and then placed in the Garden where Adam missed the mark of divine righteousness? Do you think it just happenstance or that there is a reason for this?

 

[Reformed1689]

Now you are being silly. I never said Adam was dead in sin prior to Adam sinning.

What does the Bible say?

Before sin Adam was as God had created him. Adam's eyes were not yet opened to be like God in knowing good and evil. Adam was "upright", "a living soul", "flesh,", "natural man", "not spiritual man".

The Bible tells us Adam was natural and not spiritual. In fact, the Bible gives no spiritual standing for Adam prior to the Fall.

Prior to the Fall Adam was "upright" and "natural". He was a living soul with a human nature (he was flesh".

David, please consider the following:

1. Why do you find it necessary to add to the Bible here?

2. Without your addition does the Bible seem inadequate towards your theology?

3. Does your theology stand without adding the concept of Adam being "spiritual" and "dying spiritually" to the Bible or does your theology depend on that addition?

A side note:

Have you ever considered the fact that Adam was not created in the Garden, but Adam was created "upright", "natural", "not spiritual", "flesh", "a living soul" and then placed in the Garden where Adam missed the mark of divine righteousness? Do you think it just happenstance or that there is a reason for this?

I have told you what the Bible says. You have told me what you believe the Bible says but you keep ignoring facts. You said that being dead in sin is being of the flesh and then say Adam was created only in the flesh. However, you present a problem with this view that you have yet to answer.

The problem is that Adam was not dead in sin prior to sinning. So dead in sin cannot simply mean of the flesh.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God does not create men dead in their sins. Men are born in to sin not born sinners. You need to read it again. With out your presumed ideas
MB.

The relevant verses have been given before: Psalms 51:5; Psalms 58:3; Proverbs 16:4. One of us has presumed ideas, but it isn't I.

 

[JonC]

This thread is closed due to its length.

Please continue the discussion here: Faulty Theology