FBC Dallas and Christmas Wars: Is this Kingdom work?

[jaigner]

You don't have to look very far to find it. In fact, you are the first person that is able to read one of the liberal's posts.

Dear Matthew,

Still not a liberal.

Your posts, however, are very divisive and unwarranted.

Your friend,

jaigner

 

[matt wade]

Is it a Nationally declared holiday?

Your website might be entitled straightwalk, but you sure don't talk straight.

 

[Havensdad]

Can you simply answer the question, instead of avoiding it, by asking other questions instead?

Have to compare apples to apples. So when you define what you are asking, I will answer the question. It makes a difference; has the congress, and the president of the United States, declared this holiday to be a nationally recognized holiday? Has it been upheld by the Supreme court?

 

[matt wade]

Dear Matthew,

Still not a liberal.

Your posts, however, are very divisive and unwarranted.

Your friend,

jaigner

Coming from you that's the utmost compliment. Since we are such great friends, what are you getting me to Christmas?

 

[Havensdad]

Your website might be entitled straightwalk, but you sure don't talk straight.

???????????

 

[matt wade]

???????????

Your refusal to answer a question.

 

[Steven2006]

Have to compare apples to apples. So when you define what you are asking, I will answer the question. It makes a difference; has the congress, and the president of the United States, declared this holiday to be a nationally recognized holiday? Has it been upheld by the Supreme court?

Sigh, never mind.

 

[Havensdad]

Your refusal to answer a question.

Not refusing. I want the specifics very clear.

 

[matt wade]

Not refusing. I want the specifics very clear.

OK, here's a question.

Should a business owner be allowed to tell an employee that they can't promote their individual religion, while on the clock, regardless of whether it is a national holiday?

 

[jaigner]

Christians, according to scripture, are supposed to be "hated." Not sure how that accords with what you are saying above.

I wonder how the fanatical Catholics viewed Martin Luther? Wonder how they viewed all of the protestants? In fact, this is a freedom thing, not just a Christian thing, so I wonder how the Britains viewed the Boston Tea Party? I wonder how the slave owners viewed Lincoln?

People who stand up to tyranny, are always going to be disliked by those in favor of the Tyranny...

Luther was responding to clear abuse and compromising doctrinal error against the church.

FBC is being petty, mean, and unkind. They are going to alienate themselves and other Christians by association. Yes, the Bible is clear that Christians are going to be hated, but they don't have to provoke the wrath of others.

The Church's mission is a "power under," not a "power over" model. Does the world hate us? We should respond with love and grace.

The Bible is also clear about this, as well.

 

[jaigner]

Coming from you that's the utmost compliment.

Isn't it our mission to approach other believers with attitudes of reconciliation?

Since we are such great friends, what are you getting me [for] Christmas?

PM me your personal address and I'll make sure you get something nice. You live in a cold place? Like scarves? Ties?

 

[Havensdad]

OK, here's a question.

Should a business owner be allowed to tell an employee that they can't promote their individual religion, while on the clock, regardless of whether it is a national holiday?

Let me answer.

An employer should not have the right to dictate his or her employees interaction with the customer, to such a point that the employee must ignore socially recognized mores. In other words, if a person says "Merry Christmas" to you, and the socially accepted, nationally recognized, appropriate response is to say "Merry Christmas", then the employer should not be able to censor that person in such a way as to ignore this custom.

In the same way, an employer should not be able to tell his or her employees to wear shirts with offensive language, or to be rude to the customers. For example, an employer should not be allowed to require the employee to say "Shut up, stupid idiot!" when the person asks a question about a product. Nor should the employer be able to require an individual to blow their noses with pages of the Bible.

Wicca, Islam, and the other pagan religions, do not have holidays which are nationally recognized, and a part of the culture. Ramadan is not a recognized holiday, nor is it socially normal to go about telling everyone "Happy Ramadan." This country, for better or worse, is based at least somewhat on a Judeo/Christian worldview. People who choose to believe other things, have the right to do so. They also have the right to stand in the public square, and preach these beliefs. What they do not have the right to do, is to MANDATE a cultural change.

Thus, in the same way, an employer can forbid an employee from speaking Spanish while on the clock (since it is rude, and the employer cannot understand him), but NOT forbid him from speaking English, since this is the recognized language of this country.

 

[matt wade]

Let me answer.

I was under the impression that you valued freedom. Now I find you value it only when it suits your purposes. Now that I know your viewpoint I can adjust my conversations with you accordingly.

 

[webdog]

So, now it is legalism and "stupid" to shop at places that are like minded and avoid places that are not like minded?

Actually it is.

You sure like the word legalism. Can you find some more places to through it around all willy nilly, without really understanding its meaning?

I know it's meaning...and will continue to use it where it fits. Getting all offended because someone wishes you Happy Holiday's instead of Merry Christmas sounds like something a Pharissee would do back in the day. There are more than one holiday during December, btw...or do you think Christians hold the copyright to manmade holidays in December?

Also, please show me where I've said that Christmas is a scriptural mandate? I've also not said that disagreement with what they are doing will turn one into a liberal. I've just pointed out that it's the liberals (who were already liberal to begin with) that disagree with this.

If you don't know what liberalism is, please don't call out someone on not knowing what legalism is.

Want some cheese with your whine webby?

:laugh: Let's see, churches and individuals are crying, getting all offended like the world does, putting people on "naughty lists" and I'm the whiner.

 

[matt wade]

Isn't it our mission to approach other believers with attitudes of reconciliation?

And posts like "Your posts, however, are very divisive and unwarranted." help you with that goal of yours, how?

As I've told you in PM, you've made your point that you don't like the way I interact with you. As I told you in PM, I heard you....now move along.

 

[Havensdad]

I was under the impression that you valued freedom. Now I find you value it only when it suits your purposes. Now that I know your viewpoint I can adjust my conversations with you accordingly.

I do value freedom. Including the employees freedom to live within the cultural norms of society.

 

[webdog]

Let me get this straight...you think it is acceptable for a store to instruct their employees not to say "Merry Christmas" (a national holiday), and then also that it is not O.K. for people who are against such censorship, to avoid shopping at these stores? Where is the logic in that?

To the first question, yes...and to the second, I never said that. It's stupid, but ok. It's not violating anything.

Tell you what; if people think like you, Christians will be living in hiding in the next 20 years. There will be no praying in public places allowed, no evangelism, and no mention of Jesus in public. You, my friend, are blind apparently.

Complete false dichotomy. Inclusion of all in a mere greeting is not exclusion of some. Unbelievable...

Let me tell you what happened to me last week. I was reading scripture to a crowd of people, on a public sidewalk, and was told I had to stop by a police officer, or he would take me to jail for harassment. We were not "Harassing" anyone. Mind you, this is in the "Bible belt," that is usually friendly to Christians, at least in a half hearted way.

Unfortunate, but has nothing to do with the OP.

 

[webdog]

An employer should not have the right to dictate his or her employees interaction with the customer, to such a point that the employee must ignore socially recognized mores. In other words, if a person says "Merry Christmas" to you, and the socially accepted, nationally recognized, appropriate response is to say "Merry Christmas", then the employer should not be able to censor that person in such a way as to ignore this custom.

Who sets such a standard...you? The church? You know what I say when someone wishes me a Merry Christmas (or Happy Holidays)? "Thank you, and the same to you". Are you going to put me on this churches naughty list now? Who are you to tell a private business how they can tell their customers what greeting to use at any point of the year?

I know, I must be such a liberal because I don't respond the way some on this thread would

 

[Steven2006]

Let me answer.

An employer should not have the right to dictate his or her employees interaction with the customer, to such a point that the employee must ignore socially recognized mores. In other words, if a person says "Merry Christmas" to you, and the socially accepted, nationally recognized, appropriate response is to say "Merry Christmas", then the employer should not be able to censor that person in such a way as to ignore this custom.

In the same way, an employer should not be able to tell his or her employees to wear shirts with offensive language, or to be rude to the customers. For example, an employer should not be allowed to require the employee to say "Shut up, stupid idiot!" when the person asks a question about a product. Nor should the employer be able to require an individual to blow their noses with pages of the Bible.

Wicca, Islam, and the other pagan religions, do not have holidays which are nationally recognized, and a part of the culture. Ramadan is not a recognized holiday, nor is it socially normal to go about telling everyone "Happy Ramadan." This country, for better or worse, is based at least somewhat on a Judeo/Christian worldview. People who choose to believe other things, have the right to do so. They also have the right to stand in the public square, and preach these beliefs. What they do not have the right to do, is to MANDATE a cultural change.

Thus, in the same way, an employer can forbid an employee from speaking Spanish while on the clock (since it is rude, and the employer cannot understand him), but NOT forbid him from speaking English, since this is the recognized language of this country.

No matter how complex and entangled you try and make the answer. If it legally was challenged and affirmed that a Christian had the right to express himself about Christmas while at work, it is naive to believe that the end result wouldn't be equal rights for all religions.

 

[matt wade]

I do value freedom. Including the employees freedom to live within the cultural norms of society.

So you would have no problem with a trans-gendered person working the front counter of your store? What about an open homosexual? Those are both quickly becoming cultural norms.