FBC Dallas and Christmas Wars: Is this Kingdom work?

[Havensdad]

FBC Dallas....appropriateness of the site...is this Kingdom work....hello?

Yes. Although the Gospel is first and foremost the work of the church, it is not the exclusive work of the church, since other areas affect the ability of the church to carry out that great commission. As Matt Chandelier of the Village Church, Dallas says, the job of the Church is to "Push back the darkness." Thus, whether the business is racist, and discriminates against people of another ethnicity, or they are biased in favor of secularism over and against Christians, it behooves the Church to push back.

Note that Jesus got involved in these kinds of issues constantly. He attacked people for turning religion into a means of greedy gain, when he turned over the money changers tables, he stood between the Jews and the adulteress, addressed the issue of taxes, etc.

I am actually shocked that anyone would have a problem with them doing this. Just seems like common sense, to me.

 

[matt wade]

FBC Dallas....appropriateness of the site...is this Kingdom work....hello?

Hello!

So who made you the mother hen that you have to nag us all the time about the original topic? Sorry, buddy, but conversations progress. That's sort of the point of a discussion forum.

 

[rbell]

They are saying "Let us express our religious beliefs without censorship, and quit forcing secularism on your employees."

Censorship is prohibited by the First Amendment...........

......


.....when it is Government doing the censoring.

In our country, you have the freedom to express your opinion. Your employer also has the freedom to allow consequences of said expression to catch up with you.

For instance, I can stand up at our Christmas Eve service and go on and on about wishing everyone a "Happy Kwanzaa." But my church would also have every right to can me if they wished--one, for being a moron for buying into such a monumentally stupid excuse for a holiday; and two, for not conducting myself as my employer desires me to do.

Are there limitations on speech, and related counter-actions by employers? Yep. But many folks in this country (maybe you as well) seem to have gotten the meaning of the First Amendment a bit scrambled. The FA protects your right to speech--and prohibits the government's abridgement of it. It does not prohibit consequences of your expression from overtaking you.

Is it legal for FBC-D to put up the site they did? Yep. Is it wise? Completely different question. Not so sure it is. Here's why I say that:

• I don't think it's effective. I expect such an adversarial condition causes folks to simply dig in and draw battle lines. I think there are much better ways to get the point across. I'm sure many folks disagree.
• Many of the "offenders" listed are acting true to their nature. Why should we expect non-Christians to act like Christians? Now...I see a difference between their trying to appear neutral in the "holiday wars" (I think they appear silly rather than neutral) vesus appearing hostile to Christmas observers and/or Christians. (Examples such as prohibiting school choirs from singing any Christmas songs unless they do not mention anything regarding Jesus, etc.--that's more hostile than neutral, IMO.
• It does not draw the important distinction that IMHO must be drawn between private and public dismissal of Christmas. If Target wants to tell their employees to say "Happy Holidays," instead of "Merry Christmas," they are a private company and have that right. And we have the right as consumers to shop elsewhere. But years ago, my nephew was in a school choir, and the program that evening included information about Kwanzaa (!) and a spoken tribute to Hannukah--but all the Christmas songs were edited to remove Jesus, Christmas, etc. from the song texts. It took a threatened lawsuit to restore sanity to the cranially/rectally inverted school officials. (Not an urban legend here, folks--I actually helped put folks in touch with the appropriate Christian defense entities). There's a good example IMO of when it's time to stand up and say something.

OK, I've said my piece. ya'll go after it as you see fit...:tongue3:

 

[jaigner]

Hello!

So who made you the mother hen that you have to nag us all the time about the original topic? Sorry, buddy, but conversations progress. That's sort of the point of a discussion forum.

Dear Matt the Liberal,

Merry Christmas.

Your friend,

jaigner

 

[jaigner]

I am actually shocked that anyone would have a problem with them doing this. Just seems like common sense, to me.

The Bible is clear that Christians are going to be persecuted, and that such suffering becomes our gain, as we participate in Christ's suffering. Also, this is, in no way, a threat to the Christian faith.

Kingdom work is about furthering the Kingdom, bringing the light of the gospel into darkness, responding with love and grace. This amounts to little more than bullying.

Judging from the reaction that this has gotten, many evangelical believers are shocked and disturbed at this disrespectful display.

And folks, it's not going to do any good. The world is only going to see the mean spirit and self-righteous attitude and say, "If this is what Christianity is, I don't want a part of it."

I don't blame them at all. If that's what Christianity is about, I don't want a part of it, either.

Fortunately, that's not what it's about.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Don't forget the reason for the season....Mythras.....:smilewinkgrin:

 

[webdog]

Yes. Although the Gospel is first and foremost the work of the church, it is not the exclusive work of the church, since other areas affect the ability of the church to carry out that great commission. As Matt Chandelier of the Village Church, Dallas says, the job of the Church is to "Push back the darkness." Thus, whether the business is racist, and discriminates against people of another ethnicity, or they are biased in favor of secularism over and against Christians, it behooves the Church to push back.

Note that Jesus got involved in these kinds of issues constantly. He attacked people for turning religion into a means of greedy gain, when he turned over the money changers tables, he stood between the Jews and the adulteress, addressed the issue of taxes, etc.

I am actually shocked that anyone would have a problem with them doing this. Just seems like common sense, to me.

Since Christmas is completely a man made holiday to begin with...how is this Church doing this "carrying out the Great Commission"? Would they be doing the same thing in trying to enforce Happy Thanksgiving over Happy Turkey Day?

 

[rbell]

If I begin a cult that worships woodchucks, and get a societal norm started that makes "Happy Groundhog Day" the standard greeting, and we encourage the firing of all people who say, "Happy Bill Murray Movie Day," will Havensdad support my efforts?

 

[jaigner]

This guy here has a good assessment of the situation.

I particularly like the statement, "And we wonder why people want nothing to do with our faith and why people raised on this stuff leave and don't come back."

God, forgive us for making a mockery of your Kingdom.

 

[RAdam]

It amazes me that people get so upset over Christmas. I hate to break it to you but Christmas is not a Christian holiday. Some Christians tried to retrofit it, but that didn't work all that well. Is it any surprise that Christmas here in America has become all about covetousness? It's not to me. You can dress up a pig however you want to but it will go right back it's slop. Jesus said you don't put a new patch on an old garment or new wine in old bottles. Jesus didn't come to patch over an old religious worship service but to usher in a new one. Christians ignore the wisdom Christ imparts there and try to patch over an ancient pagan holiday. Surprise, it didn't work.

I'm not against Christmas. I have a tree in my living room, lights on a hedge in my front yard, and plan on exchanging gifts. To me, however, Christmas is what it is - a national holiday built on tradition. Do I think of the birth of Jesus at Christmas? I hope I think of Him every day - His birth, life, death, resurrection, ascension, and the promise of His return. Do I make a big deal out of Christmas? Nope. What's the big deal? If a non-believer doesn't want to celebrate the birth of Christ, should I be surprised? Come on. Should I get angry? Nope. Are they taking Christ out of Christmas? That's ridiculous.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I, a non-natural born American and yet to be naturalized permanent resident, will have to speak out.
I am 64 years old and came to America when I was 50 years old.
Most of my young life in the streets of Manila, and then more years as an adult in the mountain villages of the Philippines, America to me in December was synonymous with mistletoe, reindeer, snow, holiday lights, and people calling out Merry Christmas, or greeting cards printed with Merry X'mas, and especially after I was converted I was fully convinced that while America may have its image as a land of promiscous men, women, and teenagers, and serial killers and serial rapists and kiss-kiss bang-bang detectives and secret agents, Christ, at least by tradition, if not by faith, is mentioned on the -brrrrr months.

I DREAMED of coming here and being able to hear and see all those and be a part of it all.

Now I get to the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave, and somebody blows away the Twin Towers and certain religious, irreligious, and non-religious sectors have succeeded to take away the religious fervor of the country that is known in my country to be a country of Christians WITHOUT FIRING A SHOT and actually physically invading this country.

I don't believe Christ was born on December 25 either, nor do I believe that it is important that the Christmas season be observed, BUT, like h*ll and I'll be danged if I ain't gon' say Merry Christmas just because some nut thinks it is politically incorrect.

 

[webdog]

It amazes me that people get so upset over Christmas. I hate to break it to you but Christmas is not a Christian holiday. Some Christians tried to retrofit it, but that didn't work all that well. Is it any surprise that Christmas here in America has become all about covetousness? It's not to me. You can dress up a pig however you want to but it will go right back it's slop. Jesus said you don't put a new patch on an old garment or new wine in old bottles. Jesus didn't come to patch over an old religious worship service but to usher in a new one. Christians ignore the wisdom Christ imparts there and try to patch over an ancient pagan holiday. Surprise, it didn't work.

I'm not against Christmas. I have a tree in my living room, lights on a hedge in my front yard, and plan on exchanging gifts. To me, however, Christmas is what it is - a national holiday built on tradition. Do I think of the birth of Jesus at Christmas? I hope I think of Him every day - His birth, life, death, resurrection, ascension, and the promise of His return. Do I make a big deal out of Christmas? Nope. What's the big deal? If a non-believer doesn't want to celebrate the birth of Christ, should I be surprised? Come on. Should I get angry? Nope. Are they taking Christ out of Christmas? That's ridiculous.

Excellent points and a very wise perspective. Agreed completely.

 

[dh1948]

Dear Matthew,

Merry Christmas.

Your friend,

jaigner

To everyone else, earlier today, I wrote a letter to the staff of FBC Dallas. This is what I said:

Dear FBC Dallas Staff,

Greetings. Having been raised in...I grew up in the Southern Baptist tradition, before pursuing degrees in music and theology at Baylor University and Wheaton College. I have been to FBC Dallas a number of times in my life, as my sister and brother-in-law are former members.

I am very thankful for my Christian upbringing and the foundation for my faith that was laid by hearing the Word. My conscience, for a number of reasons, has led me away from the SBC, but my love and concern for the SBC remains.

It is with a heavy heart that I approach you about the “grinch alert” website. As you, my chosen greeting is “Merry Christmas,” since that’s what I celebrate; however, I question the wisdom of this list, particularly regarding an issue that has become so controversial.

The Bible is clear that Christians will be hated, despised and persecuted, but it also exhorts Christians to respond with rejoicing, as, when we are despised, we are participating in Christ’s suffering (1 Peter 5:14).

Jesus never went about change by political means. To the contrary, he responded to hatred and insult with love, mercy, and grace, not a “power over” approach. He could have eliminated his opposition with a single breath, but he didn’t. His example shows us what true Kingdom work is about a “power under” approach, where we respond to all with grace and love, reflecting the grace and love that we have been shown through Christ.

God does not need us to defend Christmas. That is not Kingdom work. It actually reflects hearts of judgment, distrust, and vengeance. Compiling a list of establishments that offend our righteous indignation and publishing it for the world to see is decidedly mean-spirited and sub-Christian. If we are offended, that is okay. If we are made to feel uncomfortable, that is not a hindrance to our faith. I cannot adequately express how grieving this is to me.

Additionally, other Baptist churches and other evangelical individuals, congregations, and denominations are associated by name with this attitude. As a historically influential congregation, I’m quite sure you realize the media coverage you incite. Here is brief sample of the comments this story has received on the Dallas Morning News website:

“I just want to go on record as a Christian to say that I do not approve of this at all, and this type of disrespect for non-Christians in not to be tolerated.”

“I would shop at all of the stores on the naughty list.”

“I doubt Jesus would concern himself with this trivial website, but instead be ministering to the homeless, sick and destitute.”

“If you are a Christian, celebrate what Jesus was really about...”

“Funny thing is, these people's heads would explode if one of these businesses dared wish them a happy Hanukkah or a happy Kwanzaa.”

"’Happy Holidays’ is an appropriate greeting, even for Christians, because there's more than one holiday in the Season. In the Christian calendar, we're now in Advent, awaiting the arrival of the Christ child. Christmas runs from December 25 for 12 days, ending on Epiphany, when Christians celebrate the arrival of the Wise Men to the manger.”

“Baptist? Dallas? That about says it all! These folks take themselves way too seriously. Look beyond your noses, people! God is a whole lot bigger than you think.”

The name of Christ is suffering because of your actions. The Bible doesn’t say to “invite hatred upon yourself” or “repay evil with evil.”

Your website states a desire to “keep Christmas everywhere.” The lack of grace and mercy demonstrates a proper manifestation of the salvific work that commenced with the holy birth.

I implore you, for the sake of Christ and the witness of Christians everywhere, for the sake of your own Christian witness to the city of Dallas, for the sake of Christ’s Kingdom, please put an end to this website.

Merry Christmas,

jaigner

Jaigner, in all due respect, if I was pastoring a church and was the recipient of the letter you wrote, I would think that you are a busybody who has no cause to condemn the decisions that me and my church have made. I would also defend your right to not agree, but since you are not a member of my church, I would file your letter in the circular file, and keep charging ahead.

 

[jaigner]

I don't believe Christ was born on December 25 either, nor do I believe that it is important that the Christmas season be observed, BUT, like h*ll and I'll be danged if I ain't gon' say Merry Christmas just because some nut thinks it is politically incorrect.

Nobody is asking you to not say it.

I'm just saying the website is embarrassing, in poor taste, a bad witness and encourages a militant, forceful use of the greeting.

I say "Merry Christmas," too, but it's a reflection of a heart reality with me, not a petty and angry agenda.

 

[jaigner]

Jaigner, in all due respect, if I was pastoring a church and was the recipient of the letter you wrote, I would think that you are a busybody who has no cause to condemn the decisions that me and my church have made. I would also defend your right to not agree, but since you are not a member of my church, I would file your letter in the circular file, and keep charging ahead.

They might think that, and that's okay, but they need to be aware that there are many of us who are embarrassed and grieved by this pettiness. FBC Dallas and especially this pastor has been known to do and say things without proper thinking and consideration, so maybe if enough opposition is voiced, especially in a tactful manner, they may think about it.

If not, I also sent it to many of the staff of FBC Dallas, so maybe some of their other folks with think more carefully about associating themselves with this church.

 

[jaigner]

I hope I think of Him every day - His birth, life, death, resurrection, ascension, and the promise of His return. Do I make a big deal out of Christmas? Nope. What's the big deal? If a non-believer doesn't want to celebrate the birth of Christ, should I be surprised? Come on. Should I get angry? Nope. Are they taking Christ out of Christmas? That's ridiculous.

I don't agree with you on every point, but I appreciate your thoughts, especially the sentiment that we should live each day in light of the Christ event. That is key.

 

[RAdam]

The world hates Jesus Christ - always has and always will. Sometimes we forget that.