FBC Dallas and Christmas Wars: Is this Kingdom work?

[jaigner]

The issue in the OP was not an employer's right to require a particular greeting from its employees, but rather if FBC's actions were appropriate.

 

[jaigner]

And posts like "Your posts, however, are very divisive and unwarranted." help you with that goal of yours, how?

As I've told you in PM, you've made your point that you don't like the way I interact with you. As I told you in PM, I heard you....now move along.

Why don't you either respect my request and interact with me appropriately or hold it in?

Maybe you should run along.

 

[matt wade]

Why don't you either respect my request and interact with me appropriately or hold it in?

Maybe you should run along.

Because I don't respect your request and don't feel I interact with you inappropriately. Your main objection is that I call you a liberal. I think you are a liberal. I'll continue to call you a liberal, so you might as well get used to it."


"Maybe you should run along." That's you approaching me with a spirit of reconciliation? It seems that when you say we should approach each other with a spirit of reconciliation, that you mean that I should but it's ok for you to keep mouthing off.

 

[jaigner]

Because I don't respect your request and don't feel I interact with you inappropriately. Your main objection is that I call you a liberal. I think you are a liberal. I'll continue to call you a liberal, so you might as well get used to it."

Dear Matthew,

Merry Christmas.

Your friend,

jaigner

To everyone else, earlier today, I wrote a letter to the staff of FBC Dallas. This is what I said:

Dear FBC Dallas Staff,

Greetings. Having been raised in...I grew up in the Southern Baptist tradition, before pursuing degrees in music and theology at Baylor University and Wheaton College. I have been to FBC Dallas a number of times in my life, as my sister and brother-in-law are former members.

I am very thankful for my Christian upbringing and the foundation for my faith that was laid by hearing the Word. My conscience, for a number of reasons, has led me away from the SBC, but my love and concern for the SBC remains.

It is with a heavy heart that I approach you about the “grinch alert” website. As you, my chosen greeting is “Merry Christmas,” since that’s what I celebrate; however, I question the wisdom of this list, particularly regarding an issue that has become so controversial.

The Bible is clear that Christians will be hated, despised and persecuted, but it also exhorts Christians to respond with rejoicing, as, when we are despised, we are participating in Christ’s suffering (1 Peter 5:14).

Jesus never went about change by political means. To the contrary, he responded to hatred and insult with love, mercy, and grace, not a “power over” approach. He could have eliminated his opposition with a single breath, but he didn’t. His example shows us what true Kingdom work is about a “power under” approach, where we respond to all with grace and love, reflecting the grace and love that we have been shown through Christ.

God does not need us to defend Christmas. That is not Kingdom work. It actually reflects hearts of judgment, distrust, and vengeance. Compiling a list of establishments that offend our righteous indignation and publishing it for the world to see is decidedly mean-spirited and sub-Christian. If we are offended, that is okay. If we are made to feel uncomfortable, that is not a hindrance to our faith. I cannot adequately express how grieving this is to me.

Additionally, other Baptist churches and other evangelical individuals, congregations, and denominations are associated by name with this attitude. As a historically influential congregation, I’m quite sure you realize the media coverage you incite. Here is brief sample of the comments this story has received on the Dallas Morning News website:

“I just want to go on record as a Christian to say that I do not approve of this at all, and this type of disrespect for non-Christians in not to be tolerated.”

“I would shop at all of the stores on the naughty list.”

“I doubt Jesus would concern himself with this trivial website, but instead be ministering to the homeless, sick and destitute.”

“If you are a Christian, celebrate what Jesus was really about...”

“Funny thing is, these people's heads would explode if one of these businesses dared wish them a happy Hanukkah or a happy Kwanzaa.”

"’Happy Holidays’ is an appropriate greeting, even for Christians, because there's more than one holiday in the Season. In the Christian calendar, we're now in Advent, awaiting the arrival of the Christ child. Christmas runs from December 25 for 12 days, ending on Epiphany, when Christians celebrate the arrival of the Wise Men to the manger.”

“Baptist? Dallas? That about says it all! These folks take themselves way too seriously. Look beyond your noses, people! God is a whole lot bigger than you think.”

The name of Christ is suffering because of your actions. The Bible doesn’t say to “invite hatred upon yourself” or “repay evil with evil.”

Your website states a desire to “keep Christmas everywhere.” The lack of grace and mercy demonstrates a proper manifestation of the salvific work that commenced with the holy birth.

I implore you, for the sake of Christ and the witness of Christians everywhere, for the sake of your own Christian witness to the city of Dallas, for the sake of Christ’s Kingdom, please put an end to this website.

Merry Christmas,

jaigner

 

[Havensdad]

I grew up in the Southern Baptist tradition, before pursuing degrees in music and theology at Baylor University

Now we know what happened to you! :laugh:

 

[Havensdad]

So you would have no problem with a trans-gendered person working the front counter of your store? What about an open homosexual? Those are both quickly becoming cultural norms.

Nope. But I would not claim to be an Equal Opportunity Employer, either.

 

[jaigner]

Now we know what happened to you! :laugh:

Nope, the School of Music doesn't get as much of the old school Baylor stuff.

Wheaton's where it really happened.

 

[matt wade]

Nope. But I would not claim to be an Equal Opportunity Employer, either.

But wait...you said, "I do value freedom. Including the employees freedom to live within the cultural norms of society."

What happened to the employees freedom? All of a sudden you don't value it anymore?

 

[Robert Snow]

I do value freedom. Including the employees freedom to live within the cultural norms of society.

I believe you missed your calling. You should have been a trial lawyer.

Everywhere I have worked, I either did what I was told, which included things I could not say or I found another job.

 

[matt wade]

I believe you missed your calling. You should have been a trial lawyer.

Everywhere I have worked, I either did what I was told, which included things I could not say or I found another job.

:applause:

Maybe you could beat Havensdad with that clue stick you must have run into...

 

[Havensdad]

But wait...you said, "I do value freedom. Including the employees freedom to live within the cultural norms of society."

What happened to the employees freedom? All of a sudden you don't value it anymore?

No, you are changing the rules. We were talking about constitutionality and legality. Now you are asking me about what I would personally do.

Second, the example you gave is one of lewdness. That is a different category. I support the right of a man to wear a shirt with Buddha on it. He does not have the right to wear a shirt with genitalia on it. You are confusing categories.

 

[matt wade]

No, you are changing the rules. We were talking about constitutionality and legality. Now you are asking me about what I would personally do.

Second, the example you gave is one of lewdness. That is a different category. I support the right of a man to wear a shirt with Buddha on it. He does not have the right to wear a shirt with genitalia on it. You are confusing categories.

I'm not changing any rules. The entire time I've been talking about the rights a business should have to enforce any rules it wishes. I believe a business should be able to hire or fire based upon any criteria it wishes. I believe that a business should be able to require that all employees where a shirt that says "I Love Jesus" or "I Love Budda". Simply put, I believe a business should be able to conduct it's business in anyway that it sees fit.

 

[Alcott]

Everywhere I have worked, I either did what I was told, which included things I could not say or I found another job.

Not long ago, there was a "native American" somewhere in south Texas who did not do that. He was in law enforcement and wanted to grow his hair longer than was allowed by the rules of the agency he worked for. He won his case and can wear his hair according to his tribal beliefs. Do you fault him for not doing as you say you would do?

 

[rbell]

The store has a right, I think to post posters that say "Happy Holidays" rather than Merry Christmas. But when they instruct their employees not to say it, that is going to far. It is a national holiday.

Whoa, now.

I'm not by any stretch part of the PC police...but of course folks have the right to instruct their employees to say whatever holiday greeting they wish.

And other folks have the right to boycott.

First Amendment.

"National Holiday" doesn't mean we can be required by law give some sort of "official greeting." In fact, if you have a business that wants to be open on Christmas, then by all means go ahead.

 

[jaigner]

So...how about the original question of appropriateness? Should FBC Dallas be doing this? We know they have a history of making power-crazy people their bishop, but I think this is unbelievably inappropriate.

 

[Aaron]

Nevermind . . .

 

[Robert Snow]

Not long ago, there was a "native American" somewhere in south Texas who did not do that. He was in law enforcement and wanted to grow his hair longer than was allowed by the rules of the agency he worked for. He won his case and can wear his hair according to his tribal beliefs. Do you fault him for not doing as you say you would do?

I don't fault him at all. It appears like he didn't just refuse to comply. He evidently filed a legal law suit and and won in court. Looks like he went about this the right way. Now, if he had lost the suit, would he have complied or not. I would imagine we would have then found out just how important his hair is to him.

But, the places I worked, he would not be allowed to have long hair, in fact, he would be stupid to do so. If he got his hair caught in an engine lathe, he wouldn't have to worry about hair cuts; he would learn what scalping was all about, if he survived at all.

 

[Havensdad]

Whoa, now.

I'm not by any stretch part of the PC police...but of course folks have the right to instruct their employees to say whatever holiday greeting they wish.

And other folks have the right to boycott.

First Amendment.

Actually, according to the Equal Opportunity Employment commission, employers are required to make "reasonable accommodation" of religious beliefs and practices. If a person believed strongly that they should respond "Merry Christmas", how is that different from a Jewish man having the right to wear a Yarmulke, or a Muslim allowed prayer time?

 

[webdog]

Actually, according to the Equal Opportunity Employment commission, employers are required to make "reasonable accommodation" of religious beliefs and practices. If a person believed strongly that they should respond "Merry Christmas", how is that different from a Jewish man having the right to wear a Yarmulke, or a Muslim allowed prayer time?

Good luck trying to prove in a court of law a mere greeting is a "religious belief or practice".

 

[jaigner]

FBC Dallas....appropriateness of the site...is this Kingdom work....hello?