Feel the Spirit?

[kyredneck]

in 1973 when I received my first New Testament I read it cover to cover in a matter of days.
it wasn't a red letter NT, just a softbound book.
almost every word and phrase seemed to jump out of the book at me, particularly the crucifixion and resurrection chapters.
Before the last chapter of Revelation, in my heart of hearts I KNEW FOR A FACT that I was, and am, a child of God, and if the trumpet sounded I'd be out of this world.
Before I closed that NT I knew ALL my sins were forgiven, past, present, and future.
When were they forgiven ?
I had no idea.
Were they forgiven when I converted back to my Lord ?
I don't know, and frankly, didn't care, because what was important to me was that still, small voice in my head that told me I am His.

Iluvit, lol, so brother, was your heart burning within you, while he spake to you in the way, while he opened to you the scriptures? Praise the Lord.

Now, a few years with that Baptist group just killed that fire.
Grace, grace, grace, but IF you really are a Christian, don't do this, don't do that, don't go there, don't go here, don't say this, don't say that, yadayadayada don't don't don't, hallelujah.
you get the drift.

Yeah, I get the drift. This is an old ‘evil under the sun’, the same evil brought to light and expounded on in Ezek 34 & Mt 23, that burdens and gives no rest or comfort, that muddies the water and fouls the pasture and drives the sheep away. There’s little real nourishment or rest or comfort or joy or peace or edification for His little lambs in the man-centric religion of our day.

 

[kyredneck]

God has revealed in Scripture that he uses means to accomplish his purposes. For example, God can mystically impart the knowledge of Christ apart from the written word and the witness of the christian into the mind of the sinner and make him believe and save him. But God has chosen to reveal the knowledge of Christ through means.

Peace, joy and the inner witness are absolutely things that either are part of or deeply affect our emotional being. But God uses means to impart those things to us. A particular, and I believe primary, means whereby the Spirit of God gives peace, joy and assurance (inner witness) is through the Word of God of which he is the author.

There are other means but I can find no bible support for the idea that God does NOT use such means to impart these things.

Thanks Luke. I’m curious, you say “God can mystically impart the knowledge of Christ apart from the written word and the witness of the Christian…”, to which I know no example of in the scriptures. The gospel is the only means that I’m aware of that conveys the knowledge of Christ, whether it’s read or heard. BUT, God does, and always has, mystically imparted the Spirit of Christ apart from the Church or the written word or the witness of the Christian or any other means.

But I agree with you that God has chosen to reveal the knowledge of Christ through means, that being the gospel, whether preached or read.

 

[Aaron]

For example, God can mystically impart the knowledge of Christ apart from the written word and the witness of the christian into the mind of the sinner and make him believe and save him. But God has chosen to reveal the knowledge of Christ through [carnal] means.

It is always mystical. It is the mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ revealed. One can say the words and stimulate the eardrums and nervous systems of others all he wants. Without ears to hear what the Spirit says, it is vain.

And, the statement "God uses means" is meaningless. Stop using it. I clarified your meaning in the quote.

 

[Luke2427]

Thanks Luke. I’m curious, you say “God can mystically impart the knowledge of Christ apart from the written word and the witness of the Christian…”, to which I know no example of in the scriptures.

I wasn't clear. I was employing a hypothetical. No. I do not believe God does do this. I am saying he COULD do it if he wanted to but he CHOOSES to use means (the Gospel). I was simply pointing out that God uses means even though he does not have to. I think the same is true with peace, joy and the inner witness. God uses Scripture and other things (works of Providence, etc...) to give peace.

The gospel is the only means that I’m aware of that conveys the knowledge of Christ, whether it’s read or heard. BUT, God does, and always has, mystically imparted the Spirit of Christ apart from the Church or the written word or the witness of the Christian or any other means.

I can't think of any Scriptural reference wherein God has imparted the Spirit of Christ apart from the Gospel or the Church.

But I agree with you that God has chosen to reveal the knowledge of Christ through means, that being the gospel, whether preached or read.

I did not know if you would agree with that. I have always help your thoughts on BB in the highest regard but thought that perhaps you might lean a bit toward some of the primitive baptist ideas along these lines.

 

[Luke2427]

It is always mystical. It is the mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ revealed. One can say the words and stimulate the eardrums and nervous systems of others all he wants. Without ears to hear what the Spirit says, it is vain.

And, the statement "God uses means" is meaningless. Stop using it. I clarified your meaning in the quote.

The Gospel is a carnal means?

 

[kyredneck]

I wasn't clear. I was employing a hypothetical. No. I do not believe God does do this. I am saying he COULD do it if he wanted to but he CHOOSES to use means (the Gospel). I was simply pointing out that God uses means even though he does not have to. I think the same is true with peace, joy and the inner witness. God uses Scripture and other things (works of Providence, etc...) to give peace.

The point is Luke that without the Spirit there is no peace, joy, inner witness, etc.. Without the Spirit there's only the things of the flesh.

I can't think of any Scriptural reference wherein God has imparted the Spirit of Christ apart from the Gospel or the Church.

??? MANY are such passages, for starters Jn 3:7,8:

...It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`YLT

Man is totally passive in this:

who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1:13 YLT

I did not know if you would agree with that. I have always help your thoughts on BB in the highest regard but thought that perhaps you might lean a bit toward some of the primitive baptist ideas along these lines.

??? It's through obedience to the gospel that lost sheep are brought home and become saved sheep!

I'm pretty sure my soteriology is right in line not only w/mainstream PB but also generally with Old School Southern Baptists and other Reformed folks.

So, I take it you don't agree with the 'immediate regeneration' that SB old schoolers like Boyce, Dagg, Carroll, or Broadus held to?

 

[Luke2427]

The point is Luke that without the Spirit there is no peace, joy, inner witness, etc.. Without the Spirit there's only the things of the flesh.



??? MANY are such passages, for starters Jn 3:7,8:

...It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`YLT

Man is totally passive in this:

who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1:13 YLT

I'm not talking about man being active. God does it all. Every bit of it. Man is totally passive. But God uses means to do it.

What that passage does not say is that the wind blows without means. What it does say is that God is the one who brings it to pass, not man.

??? It's through obedience to the gospel that lost sheep are brought home and become saved sheep!

I'm pretty sure my soteriology is right in line not only w/mainstream PB but Old School Southern Baptists and other Reformed folks.

So, I take it you don't agree with the 'immediate regeneration' that SB old schoolers like Boyce, Dagg, Carroll, or Broadus held to?

Perhaps we should start a new thread on this subject. Right now I have to go preach a funeral.

God bless!

 

[Aaron]

The Gospel is a carnal means?

You don't mean the Gospel. You mean the letter.

 

[kyredneck]

I'm not talking about man being active. God does it all. Every bit of it. Man is totally passive. But God uses means to do it.

What that passage does not say is that the wind blows without means. What it does say is that God is the one who brings it to pass, not man.

What you are doing is actively inserting man as a mediator into the text. No Church nor preacher nor missionary nor parent nor Sunday School teacher nor evangelist has anything to do anyone's mother being the Jerusalem that is above. Nothing. The Church is to feed the sheep, NOT make sheep.

Perhaps we should start a new thread on this subject.

That might be productive until the enemies of sovereign grace start dumping on it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What you are doing is actively inserting man as a mediator into the text. No Church nor preacher nor missionary nor parent nor Sunday School teacher nor evangelist has anything to do anyone's mother being the Jerusalem that is above. Nothing. The Church is to feed the sheep, NOT make sheep.

thats cause the "Church" cant make sheep.... that is the HS's job. But remember we are charged with ....Matthew 28:19-20

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

That might be productive until the enemies of sovereign grace start dumping on it.

Within the second of the posting, but so what.....your defending the Faith.

 

[kyredneck]

thats cause the "Church" cant make sheep.... that is the HS's job. But remember we are charged with ....Matthew 28:19-20

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

So which Mission board are you actively involved with and financially contributing to?

.....your defending the Faith.

Nah, nothing like that. It's crystalizing some soteriological issues among Calvinist brothers only.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So which Mission board are you actively involved with and financially contributing to?

None.....am I going to hell?

 

[kyredneck]

Then you need to take your own advice, "But remember we are charged with ....Matthew 28:19-20", and do something.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Nah, nothing like that. It's crystalizing some soteriological issues among Calvinists brothers only.

You want to crystalize something with "Cousin Calvie " then show them how they are really Fullerites. Wont that be enlightment.....and the sparks will fly. LOL!

 

[Luke2427]

You don't mean the Gospel. You mean the letter.

I mean Gospel.

 

[Luke2427]

What you are doing is actively inserting man as a mediator into the text.No Church nor preacher nor missionary nor parent nor Sunday School teacher nor evangelist has anything to do anyone's mother being the Jerusalem that is above. Nothing. The Church is to feed the sheep, NOT make sheep.



That might be productive until the enemies of sovereign grace start dumping on it.

I think Sinclair Fergusson's words might be helpful to us in this discussion.

"For the New Testament writers, however, there is not hint of a threat to divine sovereignty in the fact that the word is the instrumental cause of regeneration, while the Spirit is the efficient cause. This is signalled in the New Testament by the use of the preposition ek to indicate the divine originating cause (e.g. Jn. 3:5; 1 Jn. 3:9; 5:1) and dia to express the instrumental cause (e.g. Jn 15:3; 1 Cor 4:15; 1 Peter 1:23).
"Since the Spirit's work in regeneration involves the transformation of the whole man, including his cognitive and affective powers, the accompanying of the internal illumination of the Spirit by the external revelation of the word (and vice versa) is altogether appropriate. Since faith involves knowledge, it ordinarily emerges in relationship to the teaching of the gospel found in Scripture. Regeneration and the faith to which it gives birth are seen as taking place not by revalationless divine sovereignty, but within the matrix of the preaching of the word and the witness of the people of God (cf. Rom. 10:1-15). Their instrumentality in regeneration does not impinge upon the sovereign activity of the Spirit. Word and Spirit belong together." (Contours of Christian Theology: The Holy Spirit, Sinclair B. Ferguson, IVP, 1996, p. 125-126).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Then you need to take your own advice, "But remember we are charged with ....Matthew 28:19-20", and do something.

I do that already....Cept not like a Southern Baptist. Do you?

 

[kyredneck]

I think Sinclair Fergusson's words might be helpful to us in this discussion.

I'll defer to Pink who is quoted in this excerpt from 'Immediate, Holy Spirit Regeneration' By Zack Guess:

".... the Holy Spirit is the sole agent in regeneration. Here it will be good to quote Arthur w. Pink in his book, The Holy Spirit, pp. 56,57:

In His work of "quickening," by which we mean the impartation of spiritual life to the soul, the Spirit acts immediately from within, and not by applying something from without. Quickening is a direct operation of the Spirit without the use of any instrument: the Word is used by Him afterwards to call into exercise the life then communicated…The soul, then, is quickened into newness of life by the direct and supernatural operation of the Spirit, without any medium or means whatever…No, men are not "quickened" by the Word, they must be quickened in order to receive and understand the Word.

Pink says on page forty-nine of the same book:

In regeneration one of God’s elect is the subject, and the Spirit of God is the sole agent. The subject of the new birth is wholly passive: he does not act but is acted upon. The sovereign work of the Spirit in the soul precedes all holy exercises of heart- such as sorrow for sin, faith in Christ, love toward God… This great change is not a gradual and protracted process, but is instantaneous: in an instant of time the favored subject of it passes from death unto life.

Note: A number of Sovereign Grace groups agree with what we Primitive Baptists teach on the so-called Five Points, but very few agree with us on the doctrine of Immediate Regeneration. There are some, notably the Protestant Reformed denomination, W. G. T. Shedd, a Congregationalist, A. W. Pink, W. E. Best, and a few others. Some theologians seem to talk out of both sides of their mouths. In some places in their theology books they seem to teach Immediate Regeneration while in other places they plainly teach Gospel Regeneration."

John A. Broadus,successor to Boyce at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary: ".....Q. Does faith come before the new birth? A. No..."

 

[kyredneck]

"Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!"

Luke, do you make water here to mean the written word?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'll defer to Pink who is quoted in this excerpt from 'Immediate, Holy Spirit Regeneration' By Zack Guess:

".... the Holy Spirit is the sole agent in regeneration. Here it will be good to quote Arthur w. Pink in his book, The Holy Spirit, pp. 56,57:

In His work of "quickening," by which we mean the impartation of spiritual life to the soul, the Spirit acts immediately from within, and not by applying something from without. Quickening is a direct operation of the Spirit without the use of any instrument: the Word is used by Him afterwards to call into exercise the life then communicated…The soul, then, is quickened into newness of life by the direct and supernatural operation of the Spirit, without any medium or means whatever…No, men are not "quickened" by the Word, they must be quickened in order to receive and understand the Word.

Pink says on page forty-nine of the same book:

In regeneration one of God’s elect is the subject, and the Spirit of God is the sole agent. The subject of the new birth is wholly passive: he does not act but is acted upon. The sovereign work of the Spirit in the soul precedes all holy exercises of heart- such as sorrow for sin, faith in Christ, love toward God… This great change is not a gradual and protracted process, but is instantaneous: in an instant of time the favored subject of it passes from death unto life.

Note: A number of Sovereign Grace groups agree with what we Primitive Baptists teach on the so-called Five Points, but very few agree with us on the doctrine of Immediate Regeneration. There are some, notably the Protestant Reformed denomination, W. G. T. Shedd, a Congregationalist, A. W. Pink, W. E. Best, and a few others. Some theologians seem to talk out of both sides of their mouths. In some places in their theology books they seem to teach Immediate Regeneration while in other places they plainly teach Gospel Regeneration."

John A. Broadus,successor to Boyce at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary: ".....Q. Does faith come before the new birth? A. No..."

Pink corroborates .....splendid! :thumbs: