that is Why Rome needs to have tradition equal to scripture, for much of their theology is NOT found in the Bible itself!It's not there just like many articles of faith of the Catholic Church.
Sola Scriptura is a Reformation response to the abuses of extra biblical dogma of the Catholic Church
e.g. The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
And Happy BIRDday to you Utiliyan
HankD
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Final and Only Authority
- Thread starter utilyan
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One Baptism
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Mankind is fallible, see Romans 3:23; 1 Timothy 6:10; Galatians 3:22, etc.
God's Word, the Bible [KJB] is infallible and does not contradict itself, even Yea, and Amen, as He is the True Witness: 2 Corinthians 1:20; Revelation 3:14; Titus 1:2; John 10:35; Psalms 12:6-7; Acts 17:11; Hebrews 4:12; 2 Samuel 22:31; Psalms 33:4; Isaiah 28:10,13; 1 Peter 1:25; James 2:8 "according to the scripture" etc.
The Ten Commandments [Exodus 20:1-17] are the standard against which all must be tested, Proverbs 30:5,6; Deuteronomy 18:20; Numbers 15:31, 22:18; 1 John 3:4, etc.
Thus "the Law" and the "testimony", which are the scripture, is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice, see [and please notice the order of operation]:
Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
See Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4; Deuteronomy 8:3
2 Timothy 3:1-17, is also clear, that the scriptures are that which allows man to be "perfect", "throughly furnished" [sanctuary language], unto all good works.
As for the 66 books, this too, is in the sanctuary, 6 loaves on the left, 6 loaves on the right, 66 [bread and the word, linked], also see the Candlestick itself, count the flowers, knops, etc, and it comes to 66, for the Word is a Lamp unto my feet. The OT, is also 39, which is the standard of judgment, 40-1 [forty save 1].
God's Word, the Bible [KJB] is infallible and does not contradict itself, even Yea, and Amen, as He is the True Witness: 2 Corinthians 1:20; Revelation 3:14; Titus 1:2; John 10:35; Psalms 12:6-7; Acts 17:11; Hebrews 4:12; 2 Samuel 22:31; Psalms 33:4; Isaiah 28:10,13; 1 Peter 1:25; James 2:8 "according to the scripture" etc.
The Ten Commandments [Exodus 20:1-17] are the standard against which all must be tested, Proverbs 30:5,6; Deuteronomy 18:20; Numbers 15:31, 22:18; 1 John 3:4, etc.
Thus "the Law" and the "testimony", which are the scripture, is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice, see [and please notice the order of operation]:
Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
See Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4; Deuteronomy 8:3
2 Timothy 3:1-17, is also clear, that the scriptures are that which allows man to be "perfect", "throughly furnished" [sanctuary language], unto all good works.
As for the 66 books, this too, is in the sanctuary, 6 loaves on the left, 6 loaves on the right, 66 [bread and the word, linked], also see the Candlestick itself, count the flowers, knops, etc, and it comes to 66, for the Word is a Lamp unto my feet. The OT, is also 39, which is the standard of judgment, 40-1 [forty save 1].
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Nope the OP covered all this.
We agree the bible is God breathed(you turn the key to start the car) and that the bible is PROFITABLE and helpful(stepping on the gas moves the car).
I already told you how this debate would go. With everyone trying to emphasize the general truth as much as possible as to avoid the LIE.
I'm just pointing at one LIE, one FAKE RULE, one claim that is not true at all. That there exists a BIBLE VERSE that says the BIBLE is the FINAL and ONLY authority. (THE CAR IS BLUE)
This should be a piece of cake. YOU GIVE ME THE VERSE. Or admit it is UNBIBLICAL.
Yes there is a VERSE, NO there is not a verse. PICK ONE!
There is a verse staying Scripture to be the final authority in terms of doctrine and discipl8ne (which has already been given). But there are no verses that denies extra-biblical authority. In fact, the Bible tells us that civil powers are authorities to be obeyed.
Indeed the Car has an ENGINE! and it has FOUR WHEELS! Yes you step on the gas to make it go.
All covered in the OP!
Show me the car is BLUE!
RUNAROUND RUNAROUND RUNAROUND!
I already said it doesn't exist as it is a faith premise.
I accept by faith that the 66 book Bible of the Reformation is the word of God, infallible, inerrant and the final and only authority.
As such I reject the edicts of the Roman Catholic Church (outside of whom - they claim - there is no salvation), the Magisterium, Papal Bulls, ex cathedra pronouncements and Holy Tradition.
HankD
I accept by faith that the 66 book Bible of the Reformation is the word of God, infallible, inerrant and the final and only authority.
As such I reject the edicts of the Roman Catholic Church (outside of whom - they claim - there is no salvation), the Magisterium, Papal Bulls, ex cathedra pronouncements and Holy Tradition.
HankD
You showed a verse that it is "PROFITABLE". That means scripture helps. It AIDS in a adequacy of doing GOOD WORKS.
I already showed that we can even UP the importance of scripture, take the word PROFITABLE out and put in the word REQUIRED instead, AND it still does not state the bible is the FINAL and ONLY authority.
You need to walk through and show grammatically where does it state that scripture is the FINAL AND ONLY AUTHORITY.
If no bible verse says that then admit this RULE is UNBIBLICAL.
This debate has nothing to do with Catholics. But to prove as you stated. This RULE is UNBIBLICAL.
What does Paul tell us to do? That which is profitable or unprofitable? You asked. I answered. You choose.
Sure it has to do with Catholicism and/or any religion because it is a faith issue.
And no, the RULE (the bible is the final and only authority) is not UNBIBLICAL because "the just shall live by faith".
Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
ipso facto If I accept by faith that the 66 book Bible of the Reformation is the word of God, infallible, inerrant and the final and only authority then it is biblical and I have by faith fulfilled the scriptures above.
Therefore any one of the four passages above containing "the just shall live by faith" is the verse you are looking for because it is a faith issue.
HankD
Ordinarily I would just pass this off as sophomoric trolling, but some Catholic apologists (like those on EWTN) adopt the same method. Real Catholic thinkers — instead of bomb throwers — can make a defense that is much more subtle and thought-out.
In essence, Catholic teaching is that the magisterium has the authority to determine what is orthodox and what is not. That is, because we say it, it is true.
This exposes a problem in Catholic doctrine, which ties itself to the primacy of Peter but is bound — by its canon of the New Testament and respected early writing (which they have not expunged, to their credit) — to acknowledge that Paul, not Peter, is the foremost theologian of the New Testament. Peter even acknowledges that Paul may be hard to understand (and he may not understand him) but he is telling the truth. A strange place for the vicar of Christ on Earth to be in.
And the ECF can't even agree on the first "pope," since either Peter was the first pope, or Paul and Peter founded the church, or Linus was the first "pope" and was ordained by Paul, not Peter.
The Antioch church, by the way, maintains that it was founded by Peter. So why does Rome insist that it, and not Antioch, is the true arbiter of Christendom since Peter founded it first?
Because we say so.
Finally, sola scriptura does not mean that the Scriptures are the only arbiter of beliefs and praxis, but they are the ultimate source of doctrine. This is pretty simple to look up, but rabid Catholics want to play a shell game and set up a straw man when none exists.
In essence, Catholic teaching is that the magisterium has the authority to determine what is orthodox and what is not. That is, because we say it, it is true.
This exposes a problem in Catholic doctrine, which ties itself to the primacy of Peter but is bound — by its canon of the New Testament and respected early writing (which they have not expunged, to their credit) — to acknowledge that Paul, not Peter, is the foremost theologian of the New Testament. Peter even acknowledges that Paul may be hard to understand (and he may not understand him) but he is telling the truth. A strange place for the vicar of Christ on Earth to be in.
And the ECF can't even agree on the first "pope," since either Peter was the first pope, or Paul and Peter founded the church, or Linus was the first "pope" and was ordained by Paul, not Peter.
The Antioch church, by the way, maintains that it was founded by Peter. So why does Rome insist that it, and not Antioch, is the true arbiter of Christendom since Peter founded it first?
Because we say so.
Finally, sola scriptura does not mean that the Scriptures are the only arbiter of beliefs and praxis, but they are the ultimate source of doctrine. This is pretty simple to look up, but rabid Catholics want to play a shell game and set up a straw man when none exists.
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The point is something that is profitable isn't even required. It only helps. And to it all gear towards GOOD WORKS.
Nothing states scripture is the Final and ONLY authority.
'ipso facto If I accept by faith that the 66 book Bible of the Reformation is the word of God"
Then you are stating faith is the authority.
Nothing in scripture states that Faith is the final authority. TRY AGAIN.
I am a troll because YOU insist a rule should not be followed unless stated in scripture.
I never made the claim that scripture says SCRIPTURE is the FINAL and ONLY Authority.
If it says it then SHOW US THE VERSE. It is a 500 year old LIE.
This should be EASY EASY EASY. Do you need a lesson on the cut & paste function?
What you are telling me is you INSIST that Sola Scriptura is FALSE since it is 100% unbiblical.
I gave you guys ONE tiny job. easiest thing to do. To quote the verse that backs up your FAKE RULES.
And you have come back with ZERO.
Wrong.
The just shall live by faith. plain, simple, sublime.
This is what caused the "Separated Brethren" to separate.
They lost faith in the Church of Rome which had corrupted itself.
They became sheep without a shepherd.
HankD
IF they had faith they would have corrected the matter as Jesus prescribed "Take it to the church".
Factitious action is a sin
Titus 3
8This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men. 9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
And again nothing says Faith is the authority.
Trying to change the subject is not going to change the fact that stating that scripture says scripture is final and only authority is a LIE.
You cannot. Nor can you prove papal infallibility, immaculate conception, perpetual virginity of Mary, the Assumption of Mary. You cannot prove monarchial bishops in the first century church because they did not exist. The RCC is founded on myth and falsehood, and vain teachings of a corrupt hierarchy.
BTW, I do not hold to sola scriptura.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
The real question is, whether the Holy Bible as we have it in 66 Books, Genesis to Revelation, IS The Word of Almighty God to the human race? IF this is so, and accepted as fact, then it follows, that because it is GODS WORD, then is MUST be the ONLY and FINAL Authority! The Bible does say that ALL SCRIPTURE is God-Breathed, which includes ALL of the Books of the entire Holy Bible, nothing more and nothing less. As Almighty God IS the HIGHEST Authority, then everything that He says IS Infallible and Inerrant, and indeed profitable to ALL, and ALL its Teachings and Commands MUST be True in ALL it says, and must be completely obeyed. If any person doubts that the Holy Bible in its 66 Books is the ultimate Word of Almighty God, and is not the FINAL and ONLY Authority to the human race, then this person cannot be "born-again", and is yet in their sins, as they question the Authority of the very Word of God, and, like Satan said to Adam and Eve, "hath God said?", whereby to question the very nature of God!
So, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox cannot be born again, nor can Anglicans and Methodists, who hold that tradition, experience, and reason are secondary authorities. Do you really believe that? Really?
Darn, you win!
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