What difference is there between the written word and the spoken word? Both are Scripture and both exceed the authority of the Pope. Is what you are saying official RCC dogma?
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Final and Only Authority
- Thread starter utilyan
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"Are you basically denying that the Holy Bible, which consists of 66 Books, is not the Word of God, and therefore not Infallible and the words of mere men?"
I believe you deny the holy bible. Adding fake rules that don't exist.
I believe the Canon of scripture is more then 66 books as the bible states itself. When someone in the new testament quotes the old testament they quote the Septuagint, so off the bat the Gospels qualify the Septuagint as the holy word of God.
From the OP i gave a simple challenge and every one has FAILED.
Show me the verse that states the bible is the FINAL and ONLY authority.
Everyone is just giving me the run around, deflecting, and dodging.
If you got a great reason we should believe in Sola Scriptura thats wonderful, thats great, and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this thread.
A false claim was made. That the BIBLE flat out states That scripture is the FINAL AND ONLY AUTHORITY.
People have a problem admitting this.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
I deny the Holy Bible!!! You make me LAUGH!
You fail to understand the text of the Old Testament. The LXX was a translation made by Jewish scholars who would have been first-class in both Hebrew and Greek, and was from the very best Hebrew manuscripts of their time. Though the LXX was in use some 150 years before Jesus was born, yet no one can show that the Hebrew text that was the basis for the LXX, was not also in use. It is clear that there are cases where the LXX differs from the MT Hebrew text, which shows that its Hebrew text was from different sources, but just as reliable. Also, the LXX went through a few "revisions" especially by Origen, who did make notations when the text differed, but these differences were included into the body of the text by later scribes, so its reliability might be weakened. I believe that the Hebrew version that was the basis for the LXX is what was used and quoted in the New Testament, as the LXX itself is nothing more than a translation from the Hebrew, like our modern versions, and cannot be classed as "inspired" or of equal value to the original Hebrew text.
Since we are talking about the Old Testament, how is it that the RCC knows better than the Jews what books belong in the Old Testament?
We are the COMPLETE JEWS! the Jews who's canon you follow where the same pharisees who killed Jesus and made their canon AFTER Jesus died on the cross. Their anti-gentile take on scripture was laughable.
Our canon is older then theirs.
The very first Catholics were 100% Jews.
The Apostles were not defective Jews nor the diet version of Judaism.
You keep thinking from the perspective of a church putting in a application to God to be his church.
That is nonsense, We are the church he started.
If anyone would have to go to the Pharisaical Jews for the canon of scripture they would indeed qualify as absolute idiots. They would have the very Jews who killed Jesus be their authority of what is scripture.
Luther went to them to get rid of books of the bible. He wanted to get rid of James and Revelations too, had he succeeded sure enough you would swear it is not scripture. Yeah he found the "official" jewish canon....but he didn't even bother to check the date it was established, YEARS AFTER the cross in response to this new growing threating religion aka Christianity.
If you would like to start a thread concerning the TRADITION of canon of scripture, that would be great. You can pull me once the thread is up.
This thread is about a LIE. A VERSE that states Scripture is the Final and ONLY authority.
No one has given me the verse, And no one has admitted that it is not the bible.
They love the LIE.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Why won't you post here for everyone to see, whether you believe that the Holy Bible IS the Infallible, Inerrant Word of Almighty God, and completely free from any error. Or, that it is a book that "contains" the Word of God, and does have errors?
What you're really advocating is that the Bible is not 100% reliable for Christian doctrine. That we need flawed men to tell us what parts are true and what parts are to be ignored. What you need to do is give us an example of where the Church is in disagreement with the Scripture and corrects it.
No, do you need a mommy or daddy to read the OP for you?
If you can't figure out what the OP means i'm not surprised how you get scripture and what everyone else writes wrong.
The bible itself explains that without guidance scripture is dangerous:
2 Peter 3
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Acts 8
30Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Scripture is clear, that scripture is HARD TO UNDERSTAND.
I already said in the OP. Do you need an audio program to read it for you?
RUNAROUNDS RUNAROUNDS RUNAROUNDS.
The only thing you need to do is cough up that verse you lied exists.
Here is the OP again if you having trouble finding it:
This is how I know this debate will sound like.
Imagine you have a WHITE car and some man comes and says it is BLUE.
You ask him to show you where it is blue, So he proceeds to tell you a car must have four wheels, an engine, when you turn the key it turns on the car, and when you step on the gas it moves around, so therefore the car is BLUE!
He will emphasize all that is True to obscure his falsehood which is the car is blue when it clearly is not.
Our Protestant and Reformed brethren swear there is a verse in the bible that says the BIBLE is the FINAL AND ONLY AUTHORITY.
Show us this VERSE.
We are not asking for verses that show the bible is TRUE(the car has an engine) or that it is important(the car has four wheels), We indeed believe the bible is true and important.
What we want is the verse that says the BIBLE is the FINAL and ONLY AUTHORITY(the car is blue)
We agree the bible is God breathed(you turn the key to start the car) and that the bible is PROFITABLE and helpful(stepping on the gas moves the car)
We however want to see this VERSE they claim exists, that the BIBLE is the FINAL and ONLY authority(the car is blue).
Show us this verse or admit it is unbiblical.
This is how I know this debate will sound like.
Imagine you have a WHITE car and some man comes and says it is BLUE.
You ask him to show you where it is blue, So he proceeds to tell you a car must have four wheels, an engine, when you turn the key it turns on the car, and when you step on the gas it moves around, so therefore the car is BLUE!
He will emphasize all that is True to obscure his falsehood which is the car is blue when it clearly is not.
Our Protestant and Reformed brethren swear there is a verse in the bible that says the BIBLE is the FINAL AND ONLY AUTHORITY.
Show us this VERSE.
We are not asking for verses that show the bible is TRUE(the car has an engine) or that it is important(the car has four wheels), We indeed believe the bible is true and important.
What we want is the verse that says the BIBLE is the FINAL and ONLY AUTHORITY(the car is blue)
We agree the bible is God breathed(you turn the key to start the car) and that the bible is PROFITABLE and helpful(stepping on the gas moves the car)
We however want to see this VERSE they claim exists, that the BIBLE is the FINAL and ONLY authority(the car is blue).
Show us this verse or admit it is unbiblical.
Again, faith is the answer.
e.g. No one, Catholic, Protestant, Baptist or anyone can prove that the Bible is the Word of God.
It is a faith premise.
No one can prove Jesus Christ is the Son of God. God come in the flesh.
Some people will tell you that is a lie and take off your head if you don't believe them.
Some Christians did not believe the Pope when he said he is the Vicar of Christ on earth, the Catholic church then burned them at the stake.
You cannot call a faith premise a lie, well you can but it really isn't a lie if it is a faith premise belief.
e.g. you are a Christian (Catholic, Protestant, doesn't matter) you witness to a Jewish person and tell him that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
He says to you "that is a lie!".
Those who believe that the Bible is the final and only authority do it by faith not a singular passage in the Scripture, there isn't one.
Those who believe the Bible is the word of God but also believe that Holy Tradition is equally authoritative do it by faith as well.
HankD
e.g. No one, Catholic, Protestant, Baptist or anyone can prove that the Bible is the Word of God.
It is a faith premise.
No one can prove Jesus Christ is the Son of God. God come in the flesh.
Some people will tell you that is a lie and take off your head if you don't believe them.
Some Christians did not believe the Pope when he said he is the Vicar of Christ on earth, the Catholic church then burned them at the stake.
You cannot call a faith premise a lie, well you can but it really isn't a lie if it is a faith premise belief.
e.g. you are a Christian (Catholic, Protestant, doesn't matter) you witness to a Jewish person and tell him that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
He says to you "that is a lie!".
Those who believe that the Bible is the final and only authority do it by faith not a singular passage in the Scripture, there isn't one.
Those who believe the Bible is the word of God but also believe that Holy Tradition is equally authoritative do it by faith as well.
HankD
Look, I'm part of the problem in this "My church is better than your church" game.
I don't know but maybe apologetics can be shared with perhaps a little disagreement but more of an information sharing venue.
e.g. The Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
This is a doctrine of the Holy Tradition of the Catholic Church but nowhere found in the Bible.
Now some will think this refers to the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ. However it is a dogma which states that Mary herself was protected from the stain of Original Sin when she herself was conceived in her mothers womb. There is an official apologetic that goes along with this dogma.
The point being - why get involved in these crash and burn crusades (of which i am partly to blame) either initiating or perpetuating them?
I know - Catholics are usually on the receiving end of the .molten brimstone.
No one benefits.
HankD
I don't know but maybe apologetics can be shared with perhaps a little disagreement but more of an information sharing venue.
e.g. The Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
This is a doctrine of the Holy Tradition of the Catholic Church but nowhere found in the Bible.
Now some will think this refers to the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ. However it is a dogma which states that Mary herself was protected from the stain of Original Sin when she herself was conceived in her mothers womb. There is an official apologetic that goes along with this dogma.
The point being - why get involved in these crash and burn crusades (of which i am partly to blame) either initiating or perpetuating them?
I know - Catholics are usually on the receiving end of the .molten brimstone.
No one benefits.
HankD
The car is white but some think that it is blue but the Pope is red and all agree.
[QUOTE="utilyan, post: 2366354, member: 12747]
Show us this VERSE.
We are not asking for verses that show the bible is TRUE(the car has an engine) or that it is important(the car has four wheels), We indeed believe the bible is true and important.
What we want is the verse that says the BIBLE is the FINAL and ONLY AUTHORITY(the car is blue)
We however want to see this VERSE they claim exists, that the BIBLE is the FINAL and ONLY authority(the car is blue).
Show us this verse or admit it is unbiblical.[/QUOTE]
What would be the point of showing it to you?
Since you aren't Sola Scriptura anyway and would simply wait for the Catholic Church to pronounce against it anyway...
Why even ask?
Show us this VERSE.
We are not asking for verses that show the bible is TRUE(the car has an engine) or that it is important(the car has four wheels), We indeed believe the bible is true and important.
What we want is the verse that says the BIBLE is the FINAL and ONLY AUTHORITY(the car is blue)
We however want to see this VERSE they claim exists, that the BIBLE is the FINAL and ONLY authority(the car is blue).
Show us this verse or admit it is unbiblical.[/QUOTE]
What would be the point of showing it to you?
Since you aren't Sola Scriptura anyway and would simply wait for the Catholic Church to pronounce against it anyway...
Why even ask?
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
What would be the point of showing it to you?
Since you aren't Sola Scriptura anyway and would simply wait for the Catholic Church to pronounce against it anyway...
Why even ask?[/QUOTE]
I have just been sent a "warning" for speaking against the Roman Catholics on these forums! May one wonder if they run this board!!!
I do like how you use Scripture to make your points, even flawed points, it shows the practice of Sola Scripture, which you say is phony.
Two questions for you;
1) Can a person be taught by God and saved through reading the Scripture alone?
2) Can a person be taught by God how to love God and love their neighbor through reading the Scripture alone?
It is certain in the Acts passage and quite likely in the Peter passage that these were not Christians, or at the very best (In Peter) immature Christians, "untaught and unstable". By contrast, John "You need not that any man teach you, etc."
The point is that, ultimately, scripture and the God who unlocks Scripture, is our infallible source of guidance.
Funny how the Eastern Orthodox have their own Patriarchs/ Metropolitans - i.e. the head Bishops of all their faithful. They also continue on with much of the same belief's of the Roman Church, you know, things like sacred tradition and the full seven sacraments.
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I think that the Holy Spirit is also part of our infallible source of guidance and the same Holy Spirit is part and parcel of the One Universal (Catholic) Christian Church.
I think that the Holy Spirit is also part of our infallible source of guidance and the same Holy Spirit is part and parcel of the One Universal (Catholic) Christian Church.
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