Final and Only Authority

[utilyan]

It is certain in the Acts passage and quite likely in the Peter passage that these were not Christians, or at the very best (In Peter) immature Christians, "untaught and unstable". By contrast, John "You need not that any man teach you, etc."

The point is that, ultimately, scripture and the God who unlocks Scripture, is our infallible source of guidance.

I do like how you use Scripture to make your points, even flawed points, it shows the practice of Sola Scripture, which you say is phony.

Two questions for you;

1) Can a person be taught by God and saved through reading the Scripture alone?

2) Can a person be taught by God how to love God and love their neighbor through reading the Scripture alone?

Yes they can, .... lets modify your questions:

"1) Can a person be taught by God and saved through reading the Coca Cola nutritional facts alone?

2) Can a person be taught by God how to love God and love their neighbor through watching STAR WARS THE LAST JEDI?"

The answer would be YES. With God nothing is impossible.

You have deceptively worded your question to where obviously a person could only say yes.


Scripture ALONE however does not work.

Lets just put you the new christian with a bible written in Greek or Chinese, and nothing else at all.

You need multiple authorities to guide you.

No one reads the gospels and remains clueless of the life of Jesus, no one concludes things like faith alone by themselves, without extra help and a twisted emphasis on epistles.



Finally SCRIPTURE ITSELF doesn't point to itself as the FINAL and ONLY authority.
It does however multiple times POINT TO THE CHURCH.

Jesus Christ points to the church.
The Church is ONE FLESH with Jesus Christ.
The Church is GOD BREATHED.

Scripture is NOT ONE FLESH with Jesus Christ.
Scripture is NOT the bride of Jesus Christ.
Scripture is NOT the PILLAR and Foundation of Truth.
Scripture is NOT the Body of Christ.


Ephesians 1

15For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, 16do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.


If the CHURCH is not your authority You are stating Jesus Christ is NOT your authority, they are ONE.




IF you don't think the Catholic Church is the Church, I call that a Valid argument. <-thats fine, even NOBLE if you following good conscience, aka not lying to yourself, or cowering behind peer pressure.

IF you don't think the Church,(actual church as you believe) is not the highest authority, I call that a IGNORANT argument.


Those who oppose the Church oppose Jesus Christ. The only way the church can say anything at all is when the head of the church, JESUS CHRIST has spoken.


Jesus Christ is the absolute BOSS of the Church.

 

[church mouse guy]

Funny how the Eastern Orthodox have their own Patriarchs/ Metropolitans - i.e. the head Bishops of all their faithful. They also continue on with much of the same belief's of the Roman Church, you know, things like sacred tradition and the full seven sacraments.

Yes, but both the Orthodox in 1054 AD and the Protestants 500 years ago rejected the idea that a Roman Catholic Pope is the Vicar of Christ, right? And it does not help that Pope Francis has set about to destroy the legacy of Pope John Paul II, who was friendlier with the USA. But then Pope Francis is a Peronist, or an Argentine admirer of Mussolini and has not been critical of the suffering caused by communist and socialist governments in Latin America but has been very friendly with the leaders of those countries and quite outspoken in his unfriendly criticisms of the USA, which is not a Roman Catholic country. I find that very conservative Catholics are friendly with Protestants and very liberal Catholics are unfriendly with Protestants.

 

[HankD]

Admittedly there is a benefit in having an indisputable final authority such the Holy See of the Catholic Church.
Add to that the fact that the Pope at any time necessary can issue a papal Bull or speak infallibly in ex cathedra to resolve issues.

Of course all the elements and their claims mentioned above must be accepted by faith.

Even at that, my cradle Catholic Italian family (especially on the patriarchal side being well educated) have occasional disputes concerning all things Catholic.

e.g. The impact of Vatican II and the change from the Latin Mass - and many other issues.

HankD

 

[Bro. James]

Is Francis the Peronist a pope or antipope? Vatican II has birthed even more conjecture regarding who the real vicar might be. The eastern orthodox still do not bow to the bishopric/primacy of Peter. What is that about?

Jesus is The Vicar. Now what?

If one is baptized by a priest who is later defrocked, is the baptism still valid? How does one know for sure?

Who is in control of the Vatican these days--liberals, conservatives, charismatic, or ultra-traditional? The curia?

Even, so come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[HankD]

Yes they can, .... lets modify your questions:

...

Jesus Christ is the absolute BOSS of the Church.

problem: many ecclesiastic entities make the same claim as the Roman Catholic Church - "We are the true church" and have a sound logical apologetic to prove it.

e.g. the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints.

In summary they admit that the "True Church" existed in the Early Days until the 3rd or 4th century or thereabouts but went into the state of apostasy thereafter until Joseph Smith received a direct revelation from God and the Book of Mormon and he was given the task of reestablishing the church on earth in the Later Days.

They have an ecclesiastic structure very similar to the Catholic Church with different titles of course - the president = the Pope. There is the office of The 12 apostles, Bishops etc...

The point: Folks choose what they want to believe for foundational truth and there are several church entities which provide a strong hierarchical structure of authority.

Baptist however believe the Scripture to be the final and only authority in matters pertaining to God - by faith of course.
This is not to say this is better in and of itself.

Why therefore challenge our faith? I have no doubt concerning yours in your own personal venue.

Discussion of differences and even healthy debate thereof is better than 24/7 destructive confrontations.


HankD

 

[utilyan]

problem: many ecclesiastic entities make the same claim as the Roman Catholic Church - "We are the true church" and have a sound logical apologetic to prove it.

e.g. the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints.

In summary they admit that the "True Church" existed in the Early Days until the 3rd or 4th century or thereabouts but went into the state of apostasy thereafter until Joseph Smith received a direct revelation from God and the Book of Mormon and he was given the task of reestablishing the church on earth in the Later Days.

They have an ecclesiastic structure very similar to the Catholic Church with different titles of course - the president = the Pope. There is the office of The 12 apostles, Bishops etc...

The point: Folks choose what they want to believe for foundational truth and there are several church entities which provide a strong hierarchical structure of authority.

Baptist however believe the Scripture to be the final and only authority in matters pertaining to God - by faith of course.
This is not to say this is better in and of itself.

Why therefore challenge our faith? I have no doubt concerning yours in your own personal venue.

Discussion of differences and even healthy debate thereof is better than 24/7 destructive confrontations.


HankD

Every single baptist denomination has a Mini-Pope. And you only speak for yourself as admitting there is no scripture verse stating the bible is the only and final authority, not everyone here agrees with you, plenty insist the bible explicitly or implicitly teaches Sola Scriptura.

I can point at someone like James White who will tell you neither Jesus, the apostles, the hearers of our lord, nor immediate successors practice Sola Scriptura. While others will insist Jesus, the apostles, the Jews and all did practice Sola Scriptura.

Hank you would never know what the bible was unless someone put it in your hands, who ever did it is YOUR AUTHORITY.

If you were a fresh atheist I can put you in a library with tons of ancient christian gospels and epistles you would have no idea what is legit or not without a authority to tell you what is divinely inspired or not.

Tell me a story about when you were in bed one night and God came through your ceiling and said OK i'm going to give you a list of books this is my scripture.

No, someone put that book in your hands, that someone is your AUTHORITY, you had to trust them on their word that what you were given is legit.

 

[HankD]

Every single baptist denomination has a Mini-Pope. And you only speak for yourself as admitting there is no scripture verse stating the bible is the only and final authority, not everyone here agrees with you, plenty insist the bible explicitly or implicitly teaches Sola Scriptura.

I can point at someone like James White who will tell you neither Jesus, the apostles, the hearers of our lord, nor immediate successors practice Sola Scriptura. While others will insist Jesus, the apostles, the Jews and all did practice Sola Scriptura.

Hank you would never know what the bible was unless someone put it in your hands, who ever did it is YOUR AUTHORITY.

If you were a fresh atheist I can put you in a library with tons of ancient christian gospels and epistles you would have no idea what is legit or not without a authority to tell you what is divinely inspired or not.

Tell me a story about when you were in bed one night and God came through your ceiling and said OK i'm going to give you a list of books this is my scripture.

No, someone put that book in your hands, that someone is your AUTHORITY, you had to trust them on their word that what you were given is legit.

Ohoh! I never had a Bible of my own until I enlisted in the US Air Force and was issued a NT in boot camp.

It sat in my locker for 2 years until I felt a strong urge to start reading it.

HankD

 

[FollowTheWay]

Jesus added commandments, gave new ones, and plenty of you heard it said, but I say on to you's.

In acts when the Judaisers wanted to force circumcisions they would have been correct on scripture alone.

All these things don't matter, however. Because here is a case where a man-made tradition is adding beyond to what is written. Someone is claiming a FAKE rule as being stated in scripture.

You have the easiest job in the world to show us the verse.

We want to see this VERSE they claim exists, that the BIBLE is the FINAL and ONLY authority(the car is blue).

We know the bible is very very true, the bible is very very important and the bible is very very right. That is not being debated.

What is being debated is the FAKE RULE that the bible is the FINAL and ONLY authority.

Show us the bible verse that claims so, OR admit it is UNBIBLICAL.

Jesus was and is the Son of God and He provided mankind with the 2nd and FINAL covenant to restore our relationship to God lost by Adam and Eve's sin. The 1st covenant with the Jewish people was imperfect and not intended to be the perfect lasting covenant under Christ and Grace. So yes, Jesus did change aspects of the first covenant to be consistent with His everlasting one. He did refute some laws in the Old Testament. The one you refer to is of course his commands on how to deal with people that have wronged you.
[Exo 21:23-24 KJV] 23 And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
[Mat 5:38-39 KJV] 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
It's not a valid argument to say that because the Son of God can provide a new way to God and refute the old one that a mere man can do the same thing.
We are living under the guidance and instruction of the entire Bible not just the Old Testament and specifically under the new covenant given to us by the Lord Jesus Christ.
Can God still give us answers to our prayers and insights into our concerns? Of course. Can He still work miracles? I believe that He can. After all, He is the Lord God Almighty and is omnipotent. Can a minister or the Pope do any of these things? NO. They like us are poor sinners saved by Grace through faith.
The Bible warns against adding or talking away any part of the Holy Scriptures.
[Rev 22:18-19 KJV] 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
Ultimate truth and ultimate reality can only be found in God not in any man. But this truth must be applied to our everyday experiences by all of us and in the appropriate areas supplemented by science and experience. The Bible does not tell us how to build a car. We've discovered that through science and experience. In the same way, the Bible does not tell you whether the car is white or blue. That decision is given to us to be made using the insights of the Bible supplemented by our worldly knowledge learned through using the God-given intellect He gave man.

 

[Bro. James]

The Rev. 22:18-19 is a death blow to the traditions of men being added to The Word of God. See also: Mt. 15:1-12.

Re: Baptist mini pontiffs. A true Baptist Church has no central authority. No dioceses, archdioceses, archbishops, archdeacons, cardinals and pontiffs, etc. etc. That sort of apostasy is strictly from the pagan Roman Empire, pontifex maximus, Constantine the Great, his mother, Helena and others who foisted some apostate so-called Christians to an unholy marriage of church and state in the 4th century. The offspring still reside in the Vatican in Rome and still have a remarkable control over billions of people. Formerly known as: Holy Roman Empire.

True Baptists are not a denomination of the so-called Protestant Reformation of Catholicism. True Baptists have never been a part of Rome, in fact always persecuted by them. True Baptists have always regarded Papacy as Antichrist.

There is nothing universal about a True Baptist Congregation. They are congregational, the majority rules, a theocracy, following the scripture with the guidance of The Spirit, The Holy, Who immersed the First Congregation on the day of pentecost. He continues to lead, guide and direct them--without a holy see, never having been a part of Rome. Amazing.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Yeshua1]

Every single baptist denomination has a Mini-Pope. And you only speak for yourself as admitting there is no scripture verse stating the bible is the only and final authority, not everyone here agrees with you, plenty insist the bible explicitly or implicitly teaches Sola Scriptura.

I can point at someone like James White who will tell you neither Jesus, the apostles, the hearers of our lord, nor immediate successors practice Sola Scriptura. While others will insist Jesus, the apostles, the Jews and all did practice Sola Scriptura.

Hank you would never know what the bible was unless someone put it in your hands, who ever did it is YOUR AUTHORITY.

If you were a fresh atheist I can put you in a library with tons of ancient christian gospels and epistles you would have no idea what is legit or not without a authority to tell you what is divinely inspired or not.

Tell me a story about when you were in bed one night and God came through your ceiling and said OK i'm going to give you a list of books this is my scripture.

No, someone put that book in your hands, that someone is your AUTHORITY, you had to trust them on their word that what you were given is legit.

What other source of authority did Jesus Himself ever cite then, apart from the Scriptures themselves?
And the Church of Rome departs from scripture teachings on many points, so that is the ONLY reason it has to validate traditions of men equal to scriptures of God!

 

[utilyan]

The Rev. 22:18-19 is a death blow to the traditions of men being added to The Word of God. See also: Mt. 15:1-12.

Re: Baptist mini pontiffs. A true Baptist Church has no central authority. No dioceses, archdioceses, archbishops, archdeacons, cardinals and pontiffs, etc. etc. That sort of apostasy is strictly from the pagan Roman Empire, pontifex maximus, Constantine the Great, his mother, Helena and others who foisted some apostate so-called Christians to an unholy marriage of church and state in the 4th century. The offspring still reside in the Vatican in Rome and still have a remarkable control over billions of people. Formerly known as: Holy Roman Empire.

True Baptists are not a denomination of the so-called Protestant Reformation of Catholicism. True Baptists have never been a part of Rome, in fact always persecuted by them. True Baptists have always regarded Papacy as Antichrist.

There is nothing universal about a True Baptist Congregation. They are congregational, the majority rules, a theocracy, following the scripture with the guidance of The Spirit, The Holy, Who immersed the First Congregation on the day of pentecost. He continues to lead, guide and direct them--without a holy see, never having been a part of Rome. Amazing.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

True baptist....all one of them.

Can you name one living person who has better or equal understanding of Christianity then you Brother James?

When he gives no names it means POPE-James.


The number #1 man-made tradition is this LIE , That there is a bible verse that states that scripture is the FINAL and ONLY AUTHORITY.

I'm still waiting for the LIARS to put up the verse!

 

[utilyan]

What other source of authority did Jesus Himself ever cite then, apart from the Scriptures themselves?
And the Church of Rome departs from scripture teachings on many points, so that is the ONLY reason it has to validate traditions of men equal to scriptures of God!

Jesus recognized the seat of Moses,

Jesus recognized the established covenant of the Eucharist which is communicated not with ink and paper.

Jesus did write out a contract and say this is my body, this is my blood come sign this contract over here.

A covenant is an agreement, if anything the supremacy of legality rests with the method Jesus Christ performs rather then YOUR method of INK and PAPER.

You have NOTHING in scripture that says INK and PAPER is higher form legally, In fact I can show scripture says the CONTRARY!

2 Corinthians 3

2You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6who also made us adequate asservants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

We Catholics are TRUE Bible Believing Christians, There is no bigger departing of scripture then claiming a unbiblical rule to exist as biblical, and then not being able to show scripture to support it.

Show us this verse that plainly states the bible is the Final and Only authority.

 

[Revmitchell]

Mat_4:4 But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

Mat_4:10 Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”

Mat_26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

This disdain for "ink and paper" is not of God. Jesus consistently referred to "ink and paper" during his ministry.

 

[Bro. James]

Utilyan: thank you for your patience. For sure there is much pontification going on in the wonderful world of ecumenism.

Re: Your strawman argument about show me the verse--did you want that in Greek or Latin? Douay or KJV, 1611?

The word "Trinity" is not found in the copies of originals. Trinity is certainly a teaching of scripture. Now what?

Have you seriously considered: Mt. 15:8-9,Douay Rheims, 1899, AmEd.(DRA)?

"This people honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. And in vain they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men." Who might these folks be?

Why do modern popes apologize for the Holy See?

Peace.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[steaver]

Finally SCRIPTURE ITSELF doesn't point to itself as the FINAL and ONLY authority.
It does however multiple times POINT TO THE CHURCH.

So your Final Authority on the Church having the Final Authority is the Scripture. Correct?

 

[utilyan]

Utilyan: thank you for your patience. For sure there is much pontification going on in the wonderful world of ecumenism.

Re: Your strawman argument about show me the verse--did you want that in Greek or Latin? Douay or KJV, 1611?

The word "Trinity" is not found in the copies of originals. Trinity is certainly a teaching of scripture. Now what?

Have you seriously considered: Mt. 15:8-9,Douay Rheims, 1899, AmEd.(DRA)?

"This people honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. And in vain they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men." Who might these folks be?

Why do modern popes apologize for the Holy See?

Peace.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

I gave you the easy task to name one living person who has Christianity right.

FAILED. Because we both know no one knows better then POPE JAMES.

I couldn't leave Christianity for your faith, because your Gnostic faith seems to want to keep it secret.

 

[utilyan]

So your Final Authority on the Church having the Final Authority is the Scripture. Correct?

No. Scripture did not tell you who is scripture. Someone else told you what is scripture, how many books belongs, etc,etc.

The Church existed for hundreds of years without a complete bible. The apostles did not pop open a king james bible to find out if they are doing communion or baptism right.


The bible is PROFITABLE for instruction, but its not THE instruction. It is PROFITABLE for doctrine, it is not THE DOCTRINE.


We are bible believers. We believe the bible is never wrong.

Anyone who says the bible is final and only authority is NOT a bible believer and believes the bible is always wrong.

Hence the butchering of scripture and addition of lies as rules.

James 2

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Can I get a AMEN?^^^^
No amen.....They will take the above verse and literally render it backwards

You see that a man is justified by FAITH ALONE and not by WORKS.(<-they love unbiblical stuff)

This thread is about one thing and folks are just trying to hide the lie.


We however want to see this VERSE they claim exists, that the BIBLE is the FINAL and ONLY authority(the car is blue).

Show us this verse or admit it is unbiblical.

Don't let the EVIL DECEPTION try to derail you from the truth.


None will come up with a verse, Because they don't have God on their side.

 

[steaver]

No. Scripture did not tell you who is scripture. Someone else told you what is scripture, how many books belongs, etc,etc.

Actually, no. No one told me who was writing on behalf of God. The Holy Spirit led me to believe the 66 books of the bible were Scripture. After reading each one and having the Holy Spirit guide me I concluded they were legit, not because any pastor or church said so. When I read other gospels and other letters I can immediately through the Holy Spirit see they are not up to par. No, we did not need any RCC to tell us which writings are of God. Your church may have come to the same conclusions early on before all the corruption plagued your church, but it was the Holy Spirit who pointed to who was Scripture.

The Church existed for hundreds of years without a complete bible.

Maybe it wasn't bound into a bible, but the Scriptures always existed with God's people.

 

[steaver]

Hence the butchering of scripture and addition of lies as rules.

This from a man who says one can reject Jesus Christ and be justified by their works. Talk about butchering John chapter three.

 

[steaver]

This thread is about one thing and folks are just trying to hide the lie.

You haven't proven your church is the Final Authority. You point to the Final Authority to prove your church is the Final Authority. How ironic.