Final Authority and Final Canonization

[makahiya117]

The topic is final authority and final canonization.

The question is do you have scripture ?

Pleases answer the question and state your theory of final authority

and final canonization.

 

[Yeshua1]

The topic is final authority and final canonization.

The question is do you have scripture ?

Pleases answer the question and state your theory of final authority

and final canonization.

yes, we have the word of God to us for today, in kjv/nasb/Esv etc!

 

[Mexdeaf]

The topic is final authority and final canonization.

The question is do you have scripture ?

Pleases answer the question and state your theory of final authority

and final canonization.

Yes. I don't need theories, I have facts. REAL ones not made up ones.

If I may say so, you write like English is your second language. If that is the case may I ask what your first language is and which Bible translation you use in that language?

 

[John of Japan]

KJV But foolish and unlearned questions avoid,

knowing that they do gender strifes.

You ask silly questions.

This is not a silly question, this is a real question being asked by a missionary who is in the midst of a translation of the Word of God: should my original text be the TR or the KJV? Please give Scriptue for your answer.

If you can't answer this, then your theory is useless. God's plan is the evangelization of the world, and the translation team I head has that as a major goal. If you think that is useless or silly then you've completely missed the Christian boat.

P. S. Please be quick with your answer. Today is my translation day, and if you have a Scriptural answer for me I need to know right away. I'll be working on the final draft of 1 Tim. this morning, and my Japanese translation partner, Uncle Miya, and I will work on the 2nd draft of Luke 10 this afternoon. :flower:

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

I'll Answer That John...

This is not a silly question, this is a real question being asked by a missionary who is in the midst of a translation of the Word of God: should my original text be the TR or the KJV? Please give Scriptue for your answer.

If you can't answer this, then your theory is useless. God's plan is the evangelization of the world, and the translation team I head has that as a major goal. If you think that is useless or silly then you've completely missed the Christian boat.

P. S. Please be quick with your answer. Today is my translation day, and if you have a Scriptural answer for me I need to know right away. I'll be working on the final draft of 1 Tim. this morning, and my Japanese translation partner, Uncle Miya, and I will work on the 2nd draft of Luke 10 this afternoon. :flower:

John...I know you may have been fishing for an answer from Makahiya117 on this but I thought I'd take a stab at it too.
My answer to that would be to use the TR as your "original language" "base" while also still consulting the readings supernaturally preserved and rendered for us in the KJV and any of the English versions that preceeded it. This is because (2 Timothy 3:16) "all Scripture is given by inspiration"...and all of the above mentioned manuscripts and translations qualify as "scripture" that God has said He would "preserve.....from this generation for ever." (Psalm 12:6,7).....Beyond that...or better....BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER that...PRAY, PRAY, PRAY...and then PRAY some more that God will give you guidance and wisdom in the correct translation and rendering of His Holy Word in that very difficult language. Brother...I will offer up some prayers on yours and Uncle Miya's behalf. God Bless you!

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[John of Japan]

John...I know you may have been fishing for an answer from Makahiya117 on this but I thought I'd take a stab at it too.
My answer to that would be to use the TR as your "original language" "base" while also still consulting the readings supernaturally preserved and rendered for us in the KJV and any of the English versions that preceeded it. This is because (2 Timothy 3:16) "all Scripture is given by inspiration"...and all of the above mentioned manuscripts and translations qualify as "scripture" that God has said He would "preserve.....from this generation for ever." (Psalm 12:6,7).....Beyond that...or better....BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER that...PRAY, PRAY, PRAY...and then PRAY some more that God will give you guidance and wisdom in the correct translation and rendering of His Holy Word in that very difficult language. Brother...I will offer up some prayers on yours and Uncle Miya's behalf. God Bless you!

Bro.Greg:saint:

Thanks for the prayers, Bro. Greg.

I am quite different from Makahiya117 in that I have a doctrine (not a theory) from the Word of God itself of final authority, developed after many hours of Bible study, and know exactly what I believe about it. I didn't get it from Ruckman, Riplinger, or anyone else writing in any way shape or form on the matter. I have it written out in a 17 page outline, all from Scripture. My challenge to anyone who wants to argue on the subject (such as Makahiya), go to the Word, do actual study and deep study of every single passage on the subject, then come back to me.

Unfortunately, many in the KJVO camp have not thought in the slightest about translations on the mission fields of the world. And when they do, they don't go to us missionaries to get the facts. I have a number of stories about that, but I'll just give one. A brother missionary was asked by a pastor if we had a "Japanese KJV," and he said we don't, which is exactly the right answer. The pastor then rejected him for support because Ruckman had said that there is such a thing as a "Japanese KJV." That pastor was unjust and foolish. And Ruckman is clueless.

P. S. Makahiya is too late with his answer. It's evening in Japan, I'm done with translation for today, and have come home. Maybe he can help me for next week, though, if he has an answer by then. :saint:

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Just Curious

Thanks for the prayers, Bro. Greg.

I am quite different from Makahiya117 in that I have a doctrine (not a theory) from the Word of God itself of final authority, developed after many hours of Bible study, and know exactly what I believe about it. I didn't get it from Ruckman, Riplinger, or anyone else writing in any way shape or form on the matter. I have it written out in a 17 page outline, all from Scripture. My challenge to anyone who wants to argue on the subject (such as Makahiya), go to the Word, do actual study and deep study of every single passage on the subject, then come back to me.

Unfortunately, many in the KJVO camp have not thought in the slightest about translations on the mission fields of the world. And when they do, they don't go to us missionaries to get the facts. I have a number of stories about that, but I'll just give one. A brother missionary was asked by a pastor if we had a "Japanese KJV," and he said we don't, which is exactly the right answer. The pastor then rejected him for support because Ruckman had said that there is such a thing as a "Japanese KJV." That pastor was unjust and foolish. And Ruckman is clueless.

P. S. Makahiya is too late with his answer. It's evening in Japan, I'm done with translation for today, and have come home. Maybe he can help me for next week, though, if he has an answer by then. :saint:

John....I'd definitely be curious to see your 17 page outline on the subject PARTICULARLY because of your considerable "field experience". Actual experience gained "on the field of battle" is ALWAYS worth far more that just idle chatter! Just to clarify...I wasn't suggesting that you should directly translate from the KJV....just that you should (and I believe rightly so) keep it's "renderings" in view as you seek to do a proper Japanese translation. I do believe that God supernaturally "protected" the words that the 1611 translators utilized(even though the translators themselves might not have been directly aware of it). Some would call that some sort of "double-inspiration"(Like Ruckman or Ripplinger or their crowd). I don't believe so...I just take it as a part of His work of supernatural Preservation....so that we could have His Word accurately rendered in our language. I believe that that same supernatural aspect of the preservation of God's Word should be at work in the work you and Uncle Miya are engaged in......and it is to that end that I pray for you. What do you think?:thumbsup:

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Logos1560]

This is because (2 Timothy 3:16) "all Scripture is given by inspiration"...and all of the above mentioned manuscripts and translations qualify as "scripture" that God has said He would "preserve.....from this generation for ever." (Psalm 12:6,7).

I do believe that God supernaturally "protected" the words that the 1611 translators utilized(even though the translators themselves might not have been directly aware of it). Some would call that some sort of "double-inspiration"(Like Ruckman or Ripplinger or their crowd). I don't believe so...I just take it as a part of His work of supernatural Preservation....so that we could have His Word accurately rendered in our language.

Do the Scriptures actually assert that translations were Scripture given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles? Do the Scriptures teach that words of later translators [after the completion of the giving of the New Testament] proceeded directly from the mouth of God?

If the word "scripture" at 2 Timothy 3:16 is claimed to include translations, would not the "all" assert that it would have to include all translations?

Do the Scriptures suggest that God would show partiality to one group of scholars in their translating decisions and would not guide other translators such as William Tyndale, Miles Coverdale, John Rogers, the translators of the Geneva Bible, the Baptists who revised the KJV in 1842, or the translators of the NKJV in exactly the same manner?

Instead of "word" preservation which would involve the exact words that God gave the prophets and apostles or "jot and tittle" preservation (which would be the type or types of preservation that KJV-only advocates claim is taught in the Scriptures), are you advocating some type of "meaning" preservation where even dynamic equivalent renderings as some in the KJV would still be claimed to be a preserving of the actual words God gave originally?

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

What I have said, I have said...

Do the Scriptures actually assert that translations were Scripture given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles? Do the Scriptures teach that words of later translators [after the completion of the giving of the New Testament] proceeded directly from the mouth of God?

If the word "scripture" at 2 Timothy 3:16 is claimed to include translations, would not the "all" assert that it would have to include all translations?

Do the Scriptures suggest that God would show partiality to one group of scholars in their translating decisions and would not guide other translators such as William Tyndale, Miles Coverdale, John Rogers, the translators of the Geneva Bible, the Baptists who revised the KJV in 1842, or the translators of the NKJV in exactly the same manner?

Instead of "word" preservation which would involve the exact words that God gave the prophets and apostles or "jot and tittle" preservation (which would be the type or types of preservation that KJV-only advocates claim is taught in the Scriptures), are you advocating some type of "meaning" preservation where even dynamic equivalent renderings as some in the KJV would still be claimed to be a preserving of the actual words God gave originally?

Rick...what I have said is clear enough and I'm not willing to argue the semantics of it. It is what I believe...take it or leave it (I'm sure you and yours will probably leave it). I'm confident and at peace with the conclusion I have arrived at as a Bible Believer. I am open to God's leadership...but not the leadership of anyone who would tell me that my Bible has errors or mistakes in it( I don't believe God would do that!). I mean you no disrespect and I'm confident that as a man with your kind of detailed knowledge of Biblical things we could probably find other significant grounds upon which to fellowship....but on THIS subject...NO. By the way...in a previous thread I inquired about your credentials and qualifications to speak on these issues and was met with silence. I actually found out who you were only after another Board member PM'ed me and told me and informed me of your website and your stuff on Sharper Iron.

I will await Bro.John's reply to my comments in light of his experience both as an active missionary and an active translator of the God's Word. I am praying that God will bless his and Uncle Miya's work. As far as I'm concerned, believing as I do, I believe the translation of God's Word into English is a done deal. I'm just not willing to engage in trying to "re-invent the wheel"...so to speak. There is no edification to be had in it. My advise to you as a fellow Christian is that you should always seek to engender confidence among others in the "words" of God so that that are not left in doubt about them. If I believed what I have seen of your writings then for me that would NOT be the case. Just something to think about.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Logos1560]

what I have said is clear enough

What you said would not be clear enough when you try to suggest that it is based on what the Scriptures teach without clearly demonstrating that it is. It would not be clear enough when it seems to conflict with other scriptural truths. Would one properly interpreted and understood scriptural truth contradict another properly interpreted and understood scriptural truth?

It would not be clear enough if you will not apply your reasoning or assertions consistently since inconsistency could indicate possible use of divers measures.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

All We are doing is....

What you said would not be clear enough when you try to suggest that it is based on what the Scriptures teach without clearly demonstrating that it is. It would not be clear enough when it seems to conflict with other scriptural truths. Would one properly interpreted and understood scriptural truth contradict another properly interpreted and understood scriptural truth?

It would not be clear enough if you will not apply your reasoning or assertions consistently since inconsistency could indicate possible use of divers measures.

Brother...all we are doing is casting one subjective opinion of the properly interpreted and understood scriptural truth (as you say above) against another. We just disagree on what the "proper interpretation" about these scriptures and these issues actually are. It's an impasse. We'll get it straightened out at the JSOC. As for me...I'll keep encouraging all I know to use the KJV with confidence. It is the Word of God in English. There's more important things to do than continue to argue and attack one another. This is not a fruitful pursuit...in my subjective(and objective) OPINION!! :smilewinkgrin: Have a nice day!

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Yeshua1]

Brother...all we are doing is casting one subjective opinion of the properly interpreted and understood scriptural truth (as you say above) against another. We just disagree on what the "proper interpretation" about these scriptures and these issues actually are. It's an impasse. We'll get it straightened out at the JSOC. As for me...I'll keep encouraging all I know to use the KJV with confidence. It is the Word of God in English. There's more important things to do than continue to argue and attack one another. This is not a fruitful pursuit...in my subjective(and objective) OPINION!! :smilewinkgrin: Have a nice day!

Bro.Greg:saint:

what we KNOW for truth and fact is that Jesus promised that the APOSTLES would be granted the inspiration of the Holy spirit to enable them to record down an inerrant sacred texts, and NONE since them have had that same inspiration from god, so the KJV translator team, nor the nasb, nor esv, nor NIv were able to make a "perfect" translation that exactcopied original text, but good news is that we require the bible to be infallible to be the word of god, not Inerrant also!

 

[Mexdeaf]

Brother...all we are doing is casting one subjective opinion of the properly interpreted and understood scriptural truth (as you say above) against another. We just disagree on what the "proper interpretation" about these scriptures and these issues actually are. It's an impasse. We'll get it straightened out at the JSOC. As for me...I'll keep encouraging all I know to use the KJV with confidence. It is the Word of God in English. There's more important things to do than continue to argue and attack one another. This is not a fruitful pursuit...in my subjective(and objective) OPINION!! :smilewinkgrin: Have a nice day!

Bro.Greg:saint:

No need to wait for the JSOC, people can repent of belief in false doctrine anytime- I did. I encourage people to use their Bible translations with confidence regardless of the translation- better yet I encourage them to LIVE them.

 

[John of Japan]

John....I'd definitely be curious to see your 17 page outline on the subject PARTICULARLY because of your considerable "field experience". Actual experience gained "on the field of battle" is ALWAYS worth far more that just idle chatter! Just to clarify...I wasn't suggesting that you should directly translate from the KJV....just that you should (and I believe rightly so) keep it's "renderings" in view as you seek to do a proper Japanese translation. I do believe that God supernaturally "protected" the words that the 1611 translators utilized(even though the translators themselves might not have been directly aware of it). Some would call that some sort of "double-inspiration"(Like Ruckman or Ripplinger or their crowd). I don't believe so...I just take it as a part of His work of supernatural Preservation....so that we could have His Word accurately rendered in our language. I believe that that same supernatural aspect of the preservation of God's Word should be at work in the work you and Uncle Miya are engaged in......and it is to that end that I pray for you. What do you think?:thumbsup:

Bro.Greg:saint:

Someday I'll write a book based on my outline and experience, but not here and not now.

What I will say is:

1. God forever settles His Word in Heaven (Ps. 119:89).
2. Humans are tasked with preserving His Word on earth. There are many, many cases in the Bible where humans did so. Just one example is when kings of Israel were commanded to write out their own copy of the Word. Far too much time is spent in arguing about preservation, and far too little time is spent in actually preserving the Word of God (missionary translation, etc.).
3. I do believe God guides in translation. He often helps our task. When I have "finalized" a chapter of the NT there is an incredible feeling that here is the sacred Word of God. But there is nothing in the Bible that says my translation is inspired of God.

 

[franklinmonroe]

... But there is nothing in the Bible that says my translation is inspired of God.

Agreed, but its probably the next best thing!

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

To Clarify....

Someday I'll write a book based on my outline and experience, but not here and not now.

What I will say is:

1. God forever settles His Word in Heaven (Ps. 119:89).
2. Humans are tasked with preserving His Word on earth. There are many, many cases in the Bible where humans did so. Just one example is when kings of Israel were commanded to write out their own copy of the Word. Far too much time is spent in arguing about preservation, and far too little time is spent in actually preserving the Word of God (missionary translation, etc.).
3. I do believe God guides in translation. He often helps our task. When I have "finalized" a chapter of the NT there is an incredible feeling that here is the sacred Word of God. But there is nothing in the Bible that says my translation is inspired of God.

Inspired....no...I agree. The only thing I have been trying to convey is that the accuracy and the purity of the originally INSPIRED text is PRESERVED from one language to the next by the superintendence and guidance of the Holy Spirit. I believe that is the way God functions in the "preservation" of His Word from one generation to the next. John...without that superintendence and guidance the work of translation would merely be another work of the FLESH. I know this may sound like an exercise in mere logic but if the work of Bible translation is reduced to a mere work of man...even highly educated man....the end result will be flawed. We have a perfect God. I believe He protects His Word because he has "magnified it" above His name. May His hand be upon you as you proceed with the work you are engaged in. God Bless You. That is my opinion but I will not be dogmatic about it. I don't believe it to be contrary to anything the scriptures teach.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[John of Japan]

Agreed, but its probably the next best thing!

As long as our translation is faithful and true to the original, the truth of God will change hearts and lives! That's my hope.

 

[John of Japan]

Inspired....no...I agree. The only thing I have been trying to convey is that the accuracy and the purity of the originally INSPIRED text is PRESERVED from one language to the next by the superintendence and guidance of the Holy Spirit. I believe that is the way God functions in the "preservation" of His Word from one generation to the next. John...without that superintendence and guidance the work of translation would merely be another work of the FLESH. I know this may sound like an exercise in mere logic but if the work of Bible translation is reduced to a mere work of man...even highly educated man....the end result will be flawed. We have a perfect God. I believe He protects His Word because he has "magnified it" above His name. May His hand be upon you as you proceed with the work you are engaged in. God Bless You. That is my opinion but I will not be dogmatic about it. I don't believe it to be contrary to anything the scriptures teach.

Bro.Greg:saint:

I do believe the Holy Spirit guides and helps the translator. I experience this every week. But the Bible puts the responsibility for preserving the Word on earth in the hands of believers. There are many passages that teach this. Note just one argument on this, from the priesthood of the believer (a Baptist distinctive):

In Old Testament Israel, the priests were entrusted by God with the task of preserving the Scriptures (Deut. 17:18, Ezek. 44:8 and 15, Mal. 2:7). Remember that the Decalogue of Moses was to be kept in the ark of the covenant (Deut 31:26), and that the Temple was where the scrolls of Scripture were to be kept (2 Kings 22:9-10).

In the Church Age, each individual believer is a priest of God (1 Peter 2:5 & 9, Rev. 1:6, 5:10, 20:6). Therefore, each individual believer has a personal responsibility to preserve the Word of God. He can do this in many ways: memorization and study (preserving it in his heart and life), printing, textual criticism, translation, teaching (preserving it in the hearts and lives of the listeners), etc.

 

[John of Japan]

Let me illustrate what I mean here when I say that human preservation should come first. Right now there is a big controversy over which Spanish version is the true Spanish KJV. (Personally, I consider it impossible for a Bible in some other language to be a "KJV," but I digress.) There are two, some say three, versions vying for that. Articles have been written, lectures given, websites started, even books printed. While I appreciate the motives, I think most of those involved are missing the point of human preservation! If God is preserving His Word, we can do nothing better than getting it out to the people who need it for salvation, knowledge of God and growth!

Let God do His part, but our part is the earthly preservation of the Word. This is why when I toured a well known printing ministry in the States last year (very impressive), I was happy to learn that they print TWO different Spanish Bibles that claim the throne of King James! Man, let's just get the Word out and let God sort out the "true version!"

 

[Winman]

Let me illustrate what I mean here when I say that human preservation should come first. Right now there is a big controversy over which Spanish version is the true Spanish KJV. (Personally, I consider it impossible for a Bible in some other language to be a "KJV," but I digress.) There are two, some say three, versions vying for that. Articles have been written, lectures given, websites started, even books printed. While I appreciate the motives, I think most of those involved are missing the point of human preservation! If God is preserving His Word, we can do nothing better than getting it out to the people who need it for salvation, knowledge of God and growth!

Let God do His part, but our part is the earthly preservation of the Word. This is why when I toured a well known printing ministry in the States last year (very impressive), I was happy to learn that they print TWO different Spanish Bibles that claim the throne of King James! Man, let's just get the Word out and let God sort out the "true version!"

John, I appreciate what you are saying, but God uses man as his agent to preserve his word. We are told contend for the faith. So, as unpleasant as it is, it is necessary that this fight go on to preserve God's word. And that is exactly what most KJVO folks believe they are doing, contending for the faith. It would be wrong to sit back and do nothing if a person truly believes the word of God is being corrupted.