Five questions??

[convicted1]

In this type I would say the realization that they were naked before God denotes life.

You may be right on this point. In the OT, and even prior to the law being established, they were looking to the cross/Jesus, so you could be right. I need to study this a bit more, but a pretty valid point.

God spoke with a lot of characters in the bible such as Balaam and Nebedchenezer. You're drawing conclusions from passages that don't apply to being 'spiritually dead'. These are some wonderful types given for our edification.

Things like this I think establish my claim even more. Before anyone can truly hear the gospel, they must first be quickened, in y'alls system, and yet someone can hear God directly w/o any quickening whatsoever?(If I have misrepresented you please forgive me) Now, I think that Nebchudneezar may have finally gotten his act together after he had eaten "grass" for ,I think, seven seasons. He did seem to glorify God afterwards. But I could be wrong on this.

“lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever”,,, get it right.

You know what I really meant...:tongue:

God drove them out AFTER He had searched and found them, and shed the blood of the animal and clothed them with it's skin (redeemed by the blood of Christ and imputed with His righteousness).

I REALLY like this!! Very good point!! :thumbs::thumbs:

Yea, AFTER God had redeemed Israel from the house of bondage and brought them out Himself with a strong hand He swore in His wrath, because of their disobedience, that they would not enter into His rest.

They could not enter into rest because of lack of atonement, but due to their lack of believing(unbelief), Hebrews 2. That'a another topic altogether that someone needs to start a thread on....we haven't debated that in about 30 seconds on here, so someone please start another thread about lack of belief vs. lack of atonement.....NO, PLEASE DON'T!!! :laugh:

Again, you're drawing conclusions from passages that don't apply to being 'spiritually dead'.

Well, in y'alls system, w/o regeneration by the Spirit, no one can hear God. One must have life before they can understand anything whatsoever about the gospel. And yet, they can be unregenerated and hear every word that God says to them without any Spirit input. This is what seems to being said on hear. Maybe I am misunderstanding y'all, and if'n I am please forgive my ignorance about y'alls side of this debate. I am trying to ferret it out, but the deeper I dig, the foggier this thing gets.

 

[12strings]

Someone dead is sins, via the DoG belief, is likened to a corpse. Go up to a corpse and try to talk to it and see if it says anything. Hold your hand out, and see if it shakes your hand. Smack it and see if it smacks back. Offer it something to eat and drink, and see if they take it. A corpse can do nothing. So in the DoG system of theology, how could the soul that is dead in sins and trespasses commit any more sins?

I hear from y'alls side of the debate all the time that a corpse can do nothing. Sin is doing something, it's transgressing God's laws. A corpse can't do anything, seeing that it's dead. Catch my drift? This is what I have gleaned from the 6+ yrs of being on here.

1. I guess I have not heard anyone actually make these assersion, in describing thier DoG system this way...it is usually the non-cals who say this ABOUT the view they reject, at least in my experience.

2. If there cals who say things that sound like this, it is probably by way of emphasising the depth of inability to turn to Christ on thier own...but I suspect if pressed, they would clarify to say something like what I have said...I could be wrong. Is it ICON or Preacher4truth you are thinking of saying these things? Maybe they will weigh in here.

3. I should note that your description would apply to the beliefs of primitive Baptists, in that they have said that if someone shows ANY interest in the bible or gospel at all, it is evidence that they are already regenerate...even if they do not yet believe the Gospel, or have even heard it yet...So Your descriptions do fit their particular beliefs, I believe.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by convicted1
1.) Adam and Eve were both spiritually dead when God searched them out in the Garden, correct? How were they able to commune with Him in their "dead in sins and trespasses" state? Remember, God drove them from the Garden, "Lest they eat of the Tree of Life and live." God spoke with them, and they spoke back, and them spiritually dead.

Perhaps better questions would be:

1. Why did Adam and Eve try to hide from God?
2. What do the fig leaves represent?
3. Who took the initiative in seeking?
4. Who provided a covering for the sin of Adam and Eve?
5. What does the shedding of innocent blood to provide that covering [atonement] represent?

Originally Posted by convicted1
2.) How was Cain able to speak with God when God asked him where was his brother Abel? Cain even communed with Him, and he was also, "dead in sins and trespasses". God went so far as to place a seal upon him to protect him, and he was "dead in sins and trespasses".

"Dead in trespass and sin" means the complete inability to reconcile ourself to God, that is "Total Depravity". It does not mean physical death as you seem to recognize in the 1st question.

As far as the seal that was to prevent others from partaking of Cain's sin!

Originally Posted by convicted1
3.) How was the rich man in hell able to speak with Father Abraham, and him spiritually, AND physically dead? How was Father Abraham able to speak with a "corpse" that had/has no chance of ever being quickened, and yet Father Abraham communned with him?

I believe it is a mistake to take this story literally. Jesus Christ was using some "figure of speech" similar to a parable to teach the following:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Originally Posted by convicted1
4.) How was a spiritually dead soul able to "feel the flames", and him being dead? How was he desirious of one drop of water(shows you that a "corpse can thirst), and him a corpse?

Man has a body and a soul. The soul or "spiritual nature" of men never ceases to exist, whether in this life, in the presence of God after the death of this body, or whether in the lake of fire after the death of this body.

You really need to understand what "spiritually dead" mean. "Spiritually dead" does not mean that the soul is dead like a dead body. "Spiritually dead" means the complete inability to reconcile ourself to God, that is "Total Depravity", as I noted above.

Originally Posted by convicted1 5.) And lastly, how can a spiritually dead soul even sin? It's in a "dead state", and it can do nothing. If it can do nothing, then it can't even sin. Sure, in your system, it's a condemned sinner, but it can't sin anymore.

One more time: You really need to understand what "spiritually dead" mean. "Spiritually dead" does not mean that the soul is dead like a dead body. "Spiritually dead" means the complete inability to reconcile ourself to God, that is "Total Depravity", as I noted above.

 

[convicted1]

Perhaps better questions would be:

1. Why did Adam and Eve try to hide from God?
2. What do the fig leaves represent?
3. Who took the initiative in seeking?
4. Who provided a covering for the sin of Adam and Eve?
5. What does the shedding of innocent blood to provide that covering [atonement] represent?




"Dead in trespass and sin" means the complete inability to reconcile ourself to God, that is "Total Depravity". It does not mean physical death as you seem to recognize in the 1st question.

As far as the seal that was to prevent others from partaking of Cain's sin!


I believe it is a mistake to take this story literally. Jesus Christ was using some "figure of speech" similar to a parable to teach the following:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:



Man has a body and a soul. The soul or "spiritual nature" of men never ceases to exist, whether in this life, in the presence of God after the death of this body, or whether in the lake of fire after the death of this body.

You really need to understand what "spiritually dead" mean. "Spiritually dead" does not mean that the soul is dead like a dead body. "Spiritually dead" means the complete inability to reconcile ourself to God, that is "Total Depravity", as I noted above.



One more time: You really need to understand what "spiritually dead" mean. "Spiritually dead" does not mean that the soul is dead like a dead body. "Spiritually dead" means the complete inability to reconcile ourself to God, that is "Total Depravity", as I noted above.

I hear the term "corpse" in relations to spiritually dead. A corpse can do nothing. Maybe a corpse is a poor word to use, then? I am really trying to understand this(and I think I do), but corpse is apparently a poor word choice then, eh?

 

[convicted1]

Perhaps better questions would be:

1. Why did Adam and Eve try to hide from God?
2. What do the fig leaves represent?
3. Who took the initiative in seeking?
4. Who provided a covering for the sin of Adam and Eve?
5. What does the shedding of innocent blood to provide that covering [atonement] represent?




"Dead in trespass and sin" means the complete inability to reconcile ourself to God, that is "Total Depravity". It does not mean physical death as you seem to recognize in the 1st question.

As far as the seal that was to prevent others from partaking of Cain's sin!


I believe it is a mistake to take this story literally. Jesus Christ was using some "figure of speech" similar to a parable to teach the following:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:



Man has a body and a soul. The soul or "spiritual nature" of men never ceases to exist, whether in this life, in the presence of God after the death of this body, or whether in the lake of fire after the death of this body.

You really need to understand what "spiritually dead" mean. "Spiritually dead" does not mean that the soul is dead like a dead body. "Spiritually dead" means the complete inability to reconcile ourself to God, that is "Total Depravity", as I noted above.



One more time: You really need to understand what "spiritually dead" mean. "Spiritually dead" does not mean that the soul is dead like a dead body. "Spiritually dead" means the complete inability to reconcile ourself to God, that is "Total Depravity", as I noted above.

I agree that we were spiritually dead when God saved us. But spiritual death isn't akin to a corpse. It's being seperated from God due to our sins. In this dead state, we can not, or better, will not come to God on our own. He has to draw us to Himself. We are still in this dead state until our sins are forgiven, then we are washed in His blood, and placed in Christ. We are dead until we are forgiven, and condemnation is taken away from us, and are made free from sin and death by His precious shed blood.

 

[percho]

I have asked these questions in TWO different threads, and no one has yet to respond to them, so I have decided to start a thread so that we can concentrate on them all by themselves(I may regret this, btw :laugh.

Will y'all be so kind to reply, and replying in a civil manner?




Thanks in advance for replying to this in a civil manner.

The reason being God can commune with whom he wants to deal with. God had set forth a purpose he was bringing about through the man he had created in his image, but who was subject to deceit and corruption through the lust of the flesh, that is a living soul. How many living souls do you think existed during the period we call the OT period. Millions? Yet God communed with very,very few, For he only communed with these dead in trespass and sin living souls when it was according to his purpose.

Abram in all probability worshiped idols. We know for sure his father did. But God called him. Abram became Abraham the believer because God called him for a purpose. There were at least thousands or tens thereof living souls dead in trespass and sins living in the region Abram was called from, yet God only called him, to our knowledge.

Saul was an unbeliever going down the road to injure more of the called out ones of Almighty God and in an instant he became a believer. How? By the call of God just like Abraham. Paul didn't change his mind, God changed his mind.

Romans 1 is about the world of living souls dead in trespass and sins anf yet even then God has chosen some of them according to his purpose.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Israel there were the only people of all the earth of whom God did know
and I would say the great majority of them are blind. Saul, loved God and thought he was being obedient to the God he loved but he was ignorantly blind in unbelief until God through his Son Jesus called him to belief.

Preach the gospel unto every creature.

Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

God increased the believers. They did not believe and then God increased.
God increased the number of believers.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The end of this age and the beginning of the age to come.

A glorious age. Satan will no longer be able to deceive the living souls.

 

[Van]

1.) Adam and Eve were both spiritually dead when God searched them out in the Garden, correct? How were they able to commune with Him in their "dead in sins and trespasses" state? Remember, God drove them from the Garden, "Lest they eat of the Tree of Life and live." God spoke with them, and they spoke back, and them spiritually dead.

2.) How was Cain able to speak with God when God asked him where was his brother Abel? Cain even communed with Him, and he was also, "dead in sins and trespasses". God went so far as to place a seal upon him to protect him, and he was "dead in sins and trespasses".

3.) How was the rich man in hell able to speak with Father Abraham, and him spiritually, AND physically dead? How was Father Abraham able to speak with a "corpse" that had/has no chance of ever being quickened, and yet Father Abraham communed with him?

4.) How was a spiritually dead soul able to "feel the flames", and him being dead? How was he desirous of one drop of water(shows you that a "corpse can thirst), and him a corpse?

5.) And lastly, how can a spiritually dead soul even sin? It's in a "dead state", and it can do nothing. If it can do nothing, then it can't even sin. Sure, in your system, it's a condemned sinner, but it can't sin anymore.

Great set of questions! I have not read past the opening post, and I see we are on page 5.
So if my answers are redundant, please ignore them.

1. When did Adam and Eve spiritually die? When their eyes were opened with the knowledge of good and evil? When they were separated from the tree of life. I think the second possibility is more likely. Did there “death” (separation) result in total spiritual inability? Nope, God put an angel in place to preclude any attempt at re-entry. Thus, also separated from God and therefore spiritually dead, God thought they had the capacity to seek the tree of life.

2. Cain, Abel, and all humans in existence were “spiritually dead” separated from the tree of life. God can communicate with spiritually dead people directly, and indirectly. He is all powerful and does as He pleases.

3. The rich man was in torment, aware of his condition, and able to seek a “more tolerable” condition, for himself and his loved ones. Thus being spiritually dead, i.e. separated from God, does not result in total spiritual inability.

4. See the answer to question #3.

5. Being spiritually dead, i.e. separated from God, does not preclude piling up wrath. Therefore, volitional sin where a “dead” sinner goes against what He knows is a more godly way indicated yet again some limited ability to discern some spiritual things.

 

[OldRegular]

I agree that we were spiritually dead when God saved us. But spiritual death isn't akin to a corpse. It's being seperated from God due to our sins. In this dead state, we can not, or better, will not come to God on our own. He has to draw us to Himself. We are still in this dead state until our sins are forgiven, then we are washed in His blood, and placed in Christ. We are dead until we are forgiven, and condemnation is taken away from us, and are made free from sin and death by His precious shed blood.

You are getting close!

 

[convicted1]

You are getting close!

How am I getting close? I have always believed this.


People state that a corpse needs to be given life, and then, and only then can they believe, and be saved. How can someone have a new birth, and not be saved? How can someone be in Christ, and yet they have to believe after the new birth? It seems to me that according to the scriptures, it's when we believe, we are placed in Christ. Hearing brings belief, and belief brings salvation.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

It's after we hear the gospel of our salvation, and trust/believe, then, and only then, are we sealed with the Holy Ghost.

 

[convicted1]

The salvation sequence is hearing, believing, and then life.

 

[percho]

I believe the sequence to be.

God is taking out of the nations a people for his name. He does this by giving them (the elect) the Holy Spirit. They can be given the Holy Spirit because Jesus was obedient unto death and was resurrected from the dead with power, according to the Spirit of holiness by God the Father. He received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father and then it could be given to those called for his name.

After this taking out of the nations a people for his name, Jesus will return and build again the tabernacle of David.

Then the residue of man will seek the Lord and the people called from the nations for his name.

The healing of the nations will follow.

Those God calls can hear the call however dead they are and just as those with Paul on the road to Damascus the ones not called will not be able to understand for they are not called.

God is not calling all and some believe. God is calling whom he will and they do believe.

Just my humble understanding. Right or Wrong.

 

[OldRegular]

. God is calling whom he will and they do believe.

:thumbs::applause::thumbs::applause:

 

[12strings]

So it sounds like Cals and non-cals all agree that spiritually dead does not mean completely unable to do anything.

 

[convicted1]

So it sounds like Cals and non-cals all agree that spiritually dead does not mean completely unable to do anything.

Cals state that the unregenerate needs to be given life to hear the gospel, and then be saved, if'n I understand'em right. So, they have life, but not saved. If I have this point right, I am in MAJOR disagreement with y'all.

 

[Luke2427]

Cals state that the unregenerate needs to be given life to hear the gospel, and then be saved, if'n I understand'em right. So, they have life, but not saved. If I have this point right, I am in MAJOR disagreement with y'all.

The matter is, like in another current thread, complex.

People who need everything to be simple and easy will never be able to see the Doctrines of Grace.

Like the Creation that comes from God, biblical theology is characterized by irreducible complexity.

It is lovely at a glance but the deeper you delve the more beautifully complex it gets. And the more complex layers you peel back the more your mind is boggled with the brilliance and glory and majesty of the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, triune God.

There is life before conversion so that conversion can take place. But this life is the life of the seedling. As that life grows it enables it's host to see what the host could not see before and understand what the host could not understand before and desire what the host could not desire before.

But this is not salvation- not yet. The life is in the incubation stage. But eventually the life grows until there is repentance and faith. One man planted, another watered but God gave the increase.

Then the life is matured into that glorious never-ending state called eternal life.

That's not simple. But it's what the Bible unequivocally teaches- and it is beautiful.

Its alot simpler to believe it works like this- death-faith-eternal life. But that is way blander and simpler than the Word of God reveals.

 

[Skandelon]

The matter is, like in another current thread, complex.

People who need everything to be simple and easy will never be able to see the Doctrines of Grace.

1 Corinthians 1:27:
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

I guess that means the one's God chose to save will never be able to understand their salvation. Good thing He put Calvinists here too, so that they can explain it to them. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[OldRegular]

I guess that means the one's God chose to save will never be able to understand their salvation.

Actually, really, truthfully, I mean it! If one who is saved by the Grace of God ponders a little he will have to admit he cannot understand why God saved him.:thumbsup::tongue3::smilewinkgrin::laugh:

 

[convicted1]

The matter is, like in another current thread, complex.

People who need everything to be simple and easy will never be able to see the Doctrines of Grace.

Like the Creation that comes from God, biblical theology is characterized by irreducible complexity.

It is lovely at a glance but the deeper you delve the more beautifully complex it gets. And the more complex layers you peel back the more your mind is boggled with the brilliance and glory and majesty of the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, triune God.

There is life before conversion so that conversion can take place. But this life is the life of the seedling. As that life grows it enables it's host to see what the host could not see before and understand what the host could not understand before and desire what the host could not desire before.

But this is not salvation- not yet. The life is in the incubation stage. But eventually the life grows until there is repentance and faith. One man planted, another watered but God gave the increase.

Then the life is matured into that glorious never-ending state called eternal life.

That's not simple. But it's what the Bible unequivocally teaches- and it is beautiful.

Its alot simpler to believe it works like this- death-faith-eternal life. But that is way blander and simpler than the Word of God reveals.

Look Brother, there is no life outside of being in Christ. One is not in Christ until they place their faith in Him.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Believing is what brings life.


You can't have faith in something you haven't heard about:

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


God gives mankind the ability to believe what the preacher is saying. Now, when he/she hears it, they can take it for what it really is, or brush it aside.

Here is where we are saved/regenerated:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So in y'alls sytem, the Holy Ghost quickens/regenerates/new births the unregenerated person, yet they aren't sealed with Him until He believes, according to Eph. 1:13.

 

[12strings]

Cals state that the unregenerate needs to be given life to hear the gospel, and then be saved, if'n I understand'em right. So, they have life, but not saved. If I have this point right, I am in MAJOR disagreement with y'all.

Actually, we would say the unregenerate needs to be given spiritual life in order to respond to the gospel and be saved, and that this all happens at the same instant. We do not believe there are Regenerated, but unsaved people walking around.

 

[convicted1]

Actually, really, truthfully, I mean it! If one who is saved by the Grace of God ponders a little he will have to admit he cannot understand why God saved him.:thumbsup::tongue3::smilewinkgrin::laugh:

As vile as I was, I would have to agree with this. I deserve hell 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times than I do His grace, love, and mercy.