Five questions??

[Skandelon]

I agree with Amy.G as I stated in my earlier response to you. Jesus Christ cannot fail.

I agree that Jesus cannot fail, but the assumption that if Christ wants someone to come to faith and they refuse then it is a failure on Christ's part is absurd. It's as absurd as thinking that when we sin, which he likewise doesn't want us to do, that it is HIS failure rather than ours.

Anyhow are you not "begging the question" in your further "what if"?

No, I was pointing out the fault in his analogy, which is the exact same fault as his theology. ( I assume you are talking about my comment to Luke about the victim never breathing.) This is why he quickly pointed out that the analogy didn't represent Calvinism...he recognized that it too clearly pointed out the inherent weakness of his position.

In verse 37 Jesus Christ states:All that the Father giveth me shall come to me. In verse 44 Jesus Christ states: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him. The Father elects, the Father draws [regenerates?], and Jesus Christ saves all these!

You ignore the historical context of this verse to make it apply to a your soteriological system. At that time, while Christ was on earth, the Jews were being hardened in their rebellion and FOR THIS REASON they could not believe Christ. You think its because they were born totally depraved and thus couldn't believe due to some inborn natural condition of their heart, but what does scripture actually say is the reason?

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."​

Only a remnant from Israel were set apart to fulfill the prophecy and God's purpose in electing Israel to carry the message of redemption to the rest of the world. These are the ones the FAther gave to His son. Once he was lifted up after the hardened Jews kill Him on the cross the Father would send the message of redemption to the entire world and DRAW ALL MEN to himself. (John 12:32)

 

[convicted1]

Yes that is a very simplistic way of looking at John 20. You assume that because it says "and that believing you might have life" that that means you have to believe first so that you can have life afterwards.
It does not say that.
Illustration: you have to breathe to have life, don't you? Stop breathing and you will not have life.
So it is perfectly right to say to a man rescued from drowning: "breathe! I pulled you from that water that you might breath and that breathing you might have life! So breathe!"
Now a far too simple man might say: "If what he said is true then breathing MUST precede life."
But a more thoughtful person would say to the simple man- "No, silly! That statement has nothing to do with which comes first- breath or life. It is simply saying that breath is necessary for life to continue. As a matter of fact, life precedes breath by some FORTY WEEKS! But God made us so that at the start we could live so we could breathe so that later we would breathe to live. In fact you HAVE to live first before you can breath but now you have to keep breathing so you can have a whole other kind of life."

Just so God made it so that you must have spiritual life in the incubation stage before you can believe. But you at a particular point must believe so that you can have a whole other kind of life.

That may not be simple enough for some people's liking but it is what the bible unequivocally teaches.

Brother, if you can tear up soil like you can scripture, come here where I live at and you'd make a killing plowing up people's garden ground for them, so they can plant it.

Have you had your eyes checked lately? If you see that in John 20:31, you need to find an optometrist STAT.

BTW, it simply states, "that by believing, you might have life". Nothing needs to be taken from it, and nothing needs to be added to it. It says what it means, and it means what it says.....plainly.

 

[OldRegular]

You ignore the historical context of this verse to make it apply to a your soteriological system. At that time, while Christ was on earth, the Jews were being hardened in their rebellion and FOR THIS REASON they could not believe Christ. You think its because they were born totally depraved and thus couldn't believe due to some inborn natural condition of their heart, but what does scripture actually say is the reason?

I agree that according to the revelation to Isaiah and confirmed by Jesus Christ that the Jews were judicially hardened. However, that does not change the teaching of Scripture regarding the state of unregenerate mankind:

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Ephesians 2:2, 3
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."​

Only a remnant from Israel were set apart to fulfill the prophecy and God's purpose in electing Israel to carry the message of redemption to the rest of the world. These are the ones the FAther gave to His son. Once he was lifted up after the hardened Jews kill Him on the cross the Father would send the message of redemption to the entire world and DRAW ALL MEN to himself. (John 12:32)

I agree, particularly in regard to God's purpose for Israel. That is one of many reasons I reject dispensationalism.

 

[percho]

Brother, if you can tear up soil like you can scripture, come here where I live at and you'd make a killing plowing up people's garden ground for them, so they can plant it.

Have you had your eyes checked lately? If you see that in John 20:31, you need to find an optometrist STAT.

BTW, it simply states, "that by believing, you might have life". Nothing needs to be taken from it, and nothing needs to be added to it. It says what it means, and it means what it says.....plainly.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Would you say the sheep would be called believers because they are followers of the shepherd?

And what does he do for the followers, that is the believers, that are so being his sheep?

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Is that how we should believers where we find them in the Word of God.
Was Abraham a believer because he believed or did he become a believer because God called him, one man out of all the men living on the earth at that time? One man from among all men, one sheep.

Why did a sheep, Paul, go from unbelief to belief in a moment in time. Because Jesus knew him, him who had been abusing other sheep, Jesus called him and he began following him as his Lord.

Paul was not going down the road to Damascus seeking God. He in ignorant disbelief thought he knew God yet he did not for he was blind. Spiritually and then physically so he would understand and then both his eyes were opened.

 

[Yeshua1]

problem here is that BOTH are true, in that Biblically the spiritual dead cannot come to Christ by their own efforts, so God grants them what is needed to hear and place faith in christ!

God regernates, person places faith in christ, BOTH happen and are true!

 

[Winman]

problem here is that BOTH are true, in that Biblically the spiritual dead cannot come to Christ by their own efforts, so God grants them what is needed to hear and place faith in christ!

God regernates, person places faith in christ, BOTH happen and are true!

Except that you have the order reversed. All scripture says we first believe, and after believing we are given life and regenerated.

You cannot show even one verse that says regeneration precedes faith, while there are at least a dozen verses that all say a person believes to have life. John 20:31 is a perfect example.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Calvinists say the exact opposite of what God says in his word. Who does that remind you of?

 

[Yeshua1]

problem is that the sinner does not have means to respond in a positive fashion to Christ, as he MUST have grace applied from God before even able to place faith in christ!

Not JUST cals affirm this, as Arminians affirm prevenient Grace also!

 

[Skandelon]

I agree that according to the revelation to Isaiah and confirmed by Jesus Christ that the Jews were judicially hardened. However, that does not change the teaching of Scripture regarding the state of unregenerate mankind:

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Which is why God sent his Son, the apostles, the church, the scripture and His Spirit as means to seek and save the lost. Proof that we don't initiate the search process is not proof that we cannot willingly respond to a God actively seeking us. But nice try. :thumbs:

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Amen. And???? Is anyone denying that we are under sin and in need of a savior? I'm certainly not.

Ephesians 2:2, 3
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

And??? Again, no one is denying any of this.

I agree, particularly in regard to God's purpose for Israel.

Then there is no reason to believe in total inability. There is a reason God needed to have Christ speak in parables. He had to hide the truth so they wouldn't repent. If your doctrine of Total Inability were true this wouldn't have been necessary.

 

[OldRegular]

Which is why God sent his Son, the apostles, the church, the scripture and His Spirit as means to seek and save the lost. Proof that we don't initiate the search process is not proof that we cannot willingly respond to a God actively seeking us. But nice try. :thumbs:

Skandelon,

What did Adam and Eve do after they sinned against God? They hid. God was actively seeking them and they hid. Did these who had communed with God at one time go to meet God after He had taken the initiative and was actively seeking them? By no means, not at all. They HID! That is the nature of mankind.

So Skandelon, nice try!!!!:wavey::tonofbricks::sleeping_2:

 

[Luke2427]

So, since you teach that all are born dead, you must be arguing that the elect are made alive in order to believe so that he may be made alive yet again? Is that correct?

Yes. All are born dead in sin.

Therefore all must be born again.

But it is not simple- as is the case with most marvelous truths.

There must be life in order to receive the things of the Spirit of God, in order to seek God and in order to repent and believe.

The sinner dead in sin has NO DESIRE to know God in any wholesome way. He has no desire to burn in hell either. And he might have a carnal curiosity about God. But all desires toward God are thoroughly and sinfully selfish. He worships self and all he is concerned about is pleasing his self.

Jesus said men in this condition "...WILL NOT come to the light because they love darkness"

But the life which enables a man to seek after God and to receive the things of the Spirit of God, etc... is not eternal life in the salvific sense. It is embryonic. When it matures into full birth THEN it is eternal life.

Salvation occurs after repentance and faith. But there must be some spiritual life to ENABLE repentance and faith.

Many Arminians call this prevenient grace as you know. They do this because they recognize the merit to the biblical doctrine of total depravity.

 

[convicted1]

Yes. All are born dead in sin.

Therefore all must be born again.

But it is not simple- as is the case with most marvelous truths.

There must be life in order to receive the things of the Spirit of God, in order to seek God and in order to repent and believe.

The sinner dead in sin has NO DESIRE to know God in any wholesome way. He has no desire to burn in hell either. And he might have a carnal curiosity about God. But all desires toward God are thoroughly and sinfully selfish. He worships self and all he is concerned about is pleasing his self.

Jesus said men in this condition "...WILL NOT come to the light because they love darkness"

But the life which enables a man to seek after God and to receive the things of the Spirit of God, etc... is not eternal life in the salvific sense. It is embryonic. When it matures into full birth THEN it is eternal life.

Salvation occurs after repentance and faith. But there must be some spiritual life to ENABLE repentance and faith.

Many Arminians call this prevenient grace as you know. They do this because they recognize the merit to the biblical doctrine of total depravity.

Life is life, is life, is life.....

No one is saved outside of Christ, yet you state that one has life in an "embryonic stage", and in Christ? You are saying that one is in Christ and not saved, but still under condemnation?

BTW, support your "embryonic stage" with scripture.....you might need a microscope to find it in the really fine print.

 

[Luke2427]

Life is life, is life, is life.....

That's why you'll never get it. You need things to be WAY too simple.

Your statement above is bogus- thoroughly bogus. The Bible contradicts this thoroughly. But you cling to it because it is extraordinarily simple.

Some people's Bible is not THE Bible- it is the Bumper Sticker Theology Bible.
If it is short and cute and could be placed on a car bumper- THEN BY GOLLY IT MUST BE TRUE!!

But the Word of God is far more glorious than that.

No one is saved outside of Christ, yet you state that one has life in an "embryonic stage", and in Christ? You are saying that one is in Christ and not saved, but still under condemnation?

It depends on what you mean when you say "in Christ". You have repeated that phrase over and over in this debate as if it is some tremendous argument against the process of regeneration beginning before repentance- but it is meaningless unless you tell us what you mean by "in Christ". I know the phrase is in the Bible, but what do YOU mean by it? What do you interpret that phrase to mean and why do you think it has anything to do with this debate?

BTW, support your "embryonic stage" with scripture.....you might need a microscope to find it in the really fine print.

There are numerous passages of Scripture that speak of people who'd be better off if they had never received the knowledge of Christ: II Peter 2, Hebrews 6 and 10, etc...

Jude says of these people that they are "twice dead".

These are people who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and who have tasted the good word of God and the power of the world to come- but the spirtual life that was planted in their hearts by the Spirit of God withered and died before it came to fruition.

Paul said that the process of salvation works like this- one plants, another waters and God gives the increase. That's an embryonic phase.

Jesus said of one man- "Thou art not FAR from the Kingdom of God" He was not completely in the world, yet he was not yet in the Kingdom. Truth and life was spawning in him.

Like Calvin, I believe there are people who receive a measure of life but come short of the new birth and eternal life. They are twice dead. Born dead and then still born in the spiritual process.

Salvation is instantaneous but there is a beautiful and complex process that brings about that instantaneous moment.

You don't have to agree with that. But what you do have to agree with if you are to be at all intellectually honest about scripture is that NNE seeks after God in their spiritually dead state.

 

[Skandelon]

Skandelon,

What did Adam and Eve do after they sinned against God? They hid.

Yes, and God sought them. Apparently you think they couldn't speak to God, converse with him or be reconciled? I guess you think the only reason they got clothes from God and had a discussion with him was because they were regenerated first?

God was actively seeking them and they hid. Did these who had communed with God at one time go to meet God after He had taken the initiative and was actively seeking them? By no means, not at all. They HID! That is the nature of mankind.

Huh??? I'm not sure what you are talking about. They had a in-depth conversation with God in which he makes them clothes, explains to them the curses (none of which are 'total depravity' btw), and tells them they are now like God in that they know both good and evil.

Plus, that is not even an example of God's effort to make reconciliation with man as we see through the gospel.

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes, and God sought them. Apparently you think they couldn't speak to God, converse with him or be reconciled? I guess you think the only reason they got clothes from God and had a discussion with him was because they were regenerated first?

Huh??? I'm not sure what you are talking about. They had a in-depth conversation with God in which he makes them clothes, explains to them the curses (none of which are 'total depravity' btw), and tells them they are now like God in that they know both good and evil.

Plus, that is not even an example of God's effort to make reconciliation with man as we see through the gospel.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I guess this is also just too plain simple minded.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes. All are born dead in sin.

Therefore all must be born again.

I agree.

There must be life in order to receive the things of the Spirit of God, in order to seek God and in order to repent and believe.

I think we all need to be reminded what Jesus taught about the Spirit. He said, "The very words I speak to you are spirit and life." (Jn 6) He was referred to as the Truth and the Word. The Spirit likewise is often called the Spirit of Truth. And we all know it is the Truth that shall set you free. And it is the very words of Christ that will judge us on the final day (John 12).

I believe you underestimate the power of Christ's words. With them he spoke the world into existence, yet you don't believe they have the power to bring the dead to life?

The Gospel, the WORDS of the Spirit, are the powerful means God has chosen to make the appeal for reconciliation and new life. To suggest one must be alive to accept the message of life confounds the clear meaning of the text, "How will they believe unless they hear?"

Jesus said men in this condition "...WILL NOT come to the light because they love darkness"

Does it say they "CAN NOT" even once confronted by the powerful life giving means of God?

Salvation occurs after repentance and faith. But there must be some spiritual life to ENABLE repentance and faith.

Do you mean like a life giving powerful message of truth sent by God Himself to make an appeal for reconciliation? Would that be sufficient? Just because someone is able to trade the truth in for lies and turn from God's appeal to life doesn't make it any less 'of God.'

Many Arminians call this prevenient grace as you know. They do this because they recognize the merit to the biblical doctrine of total depravity.

Yes. Prevenient grace just means 'enabling grace that precedes faith.' Now the question for you is do you believe the gospel is a powerful and gracious work of God's Spirit, or not? If not, why not? If so, why do you assume in isn't sufficient to make an appeal for lost enemies to be reconciled?

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree.

I think we all need to be reminded what Jesus taught about the Spirit. He said, "The very words I speak to you are spirit and life." (Jn 6) He was referred to as the Truth and the Word. The Spirit likewise is often called the Spirit of Truth. And we all know it is the Truth that shall set you free. And it is the very words of Christ that will judge us on the final day (John 12).

I believe you underestimate the power of Christ's words. With them he spoke the world into existence, yet you don't believe they have the power to bring the dead to life?

The Gospel, the WORDS of the Spirit, are the powerful means God has chosen to make the appeal for reconciliation and new life. To suggest one must be alive to accept the message of life confounds the clear meaning of the text, "How will they believe unless they hear?"

Does it say they "CAN NOT" even once confronted by the powerful life giving means of God?

Do you mean like a life giving powerful message of truth sent by God Himself to make an appeal for reconciliation? Would that be sufficient? Just because someone is able to trade the truth in for lies and turn from God's appeal to life doesn't make it any less 'of God.'


Yes. Prevenient grace just means 'enabling grace that precedes faith.' Now the question for you is do you believe the gospel is a powerful and gracious work of God's Spirit, or not? If not, why not? If so, why do you assume in isn't sufficient to make an appeal for lost enemies to be reconciled?

The Gospel accomplishes its work, which is to be one of the means used by god to save His elect in christ!

the Gospel has power WITH the union of the Holy Spirit at work to bring sinners to be able to hear/understand/receive jesus...

IF just the nessage, still preaching to deaf and dead ears!

 

[OldRegular]

Skandelon,

What did Adam and Eve do after they sinned against God? They hid.

Yes, and God sought them. Apparently you think they couldn't speak to God, converse with him or be reconciled? I guess you think the only reason they got clothes from God and had a discussion with him was because they were regenerated firs

Skandelon, Have I ever said Adam and Eve could not speak to God? Adam and Eve hid from God because they knew they had sinned. God sought them out. He always takes the initiative in reconciliation.

God did not just make clothes for Adam and Eve, Skandelon. Scripture tells us:

Genesis 3:7. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

In their state of innocence their nakedness was innocent. After they sinned their nakedness for some reason became symbolic of their guilt. Notice also that the cover they provided themselves was insufficient. Man’s effort to atone [or cover] their sin will always be insufficient so they tried to hide from God!

Genesis 3:8. And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

God was actively seeking them and they hid. Did these who had communed with God at one time go to meet God after He had taken the initiative and was actively seeking them? By no means, not at all. They HID! That is the nature of mankind.

Huh??? I'm not sure what you are talking about. They had a in-depth conversation with God in which he makes them clothes, explains to them the curses (none of which are 'total depravity' btw), and tells them they are now like God in that they know both good and evil.

They had an in depth conversation with God. Surely you jest, Skandelon!:laugh: Furthermore you know exactly what I am talking about.:smilewinkgrin:

Plus, that is not even an example of God's effort to make reconciliation with man as we see through the gospel.

You claim that God made no effort at reconciliation! Surely you are jesting again, Skandelon!:laugh: Nevertheless you are sadly wrong Skandelon.

It was Holy God who took the initiative in restoring the relationship that Adam had broken through sin; He sought out Adam and Eve.

Genesis 3:9. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

God provided a cover for their nakedness, an atonement for their sin.

Genesis 3:21. Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

God made them coats of skin as a covering for their sin, skin that required the shedding of innocent blood, the blood of animals. Why is the shedding of blood required for the remission of sin? The penalty for sin is death. The life is in the blood.

Leviticus 17:11. For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

However, this atonement or covering, this sacrifice, was only provisional, foreshadowing the perfect sacrifice that was to come.

Now you can worry about their regeneration!:thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

God sought them out. He always takes the initiative in reconciliation.

Right. That is MY point. HE seeks to save the lost. You quoted Rom 3:10 which teaches we don't seek God as if that somehow proves we can't respond to a God who seeks us.

You have yet to quote a verse that supports the idea that men are unable to willingly respond to God's appeal for reconciliation.

 

[OldRegular]

You have yet to quote a verse that supports the idea that men are unable to willingly respond to God's appeal for reconciliation.

I can show Scripture that shows man is unwilling to respond!

Proverbs 1:22-24
22. How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23. Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

Romans 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[Skandelon]

And yet Heb. 11 has a list of people who were willing, so what's your point? Some are willing and some aren't.