-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Flower Power
- Thread starter Aaron
- Start date
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
rbell said:quite frankly, I'm ticked that someone finally worked the word "pedantic" into the BB before I did!
Yeah! I had to work real hard to do that!
Heh! This BB thing is "Americanising" my English! :laugh:
ccrobinson
Active Member
So, it's Ok to be rude to somebody if they were rude to you first?
And that's the Biblical approach?Aaron said:
Aaron said:
Oh no... I am not bailing...:laugh:
I just went to bed last night.
If I understand you right, you believe we should have music the same way the early church did.. you alluded to this when you mentioned the protest of the early church fathers.... is this what you believe?
If so, then why just music... why not everything.
Our Baptistic worship today looks nothing like the early church...
They didn't set in pews, etc.
They didn't use bulletins, and have a order of service.
If I was to adapt your belief about music, I would do it right... I would go all the way, and not just half the way.
We would learn the same style of music the early church sang...
The same style Paul sang when he was in prison...
And you know what, it would sound alot like what the mid-east music sounds like today... It would definately not be European/western music.
Every since the dark ages, the European church ... (moved to America in colonial times) has had the controlling factor of what church is supposed to look like.
Times are changing. Other cultures are being empowered, and their way of worship is different from ours... How are we going to react?
Our way or the highway?
Or do we recognize the fact that God is bigger than our American/European/Western mindset? And that He welcomes worship from all parts of the globe... not just from the southern USA.
Tell me, what type of music should be in church...
Give me some examples of songs that you sing in church...
Dale McNamee
New Member
Dear Tim,
You wrote: "Oh no... I am not bailing...:laugh:
I just went to bed last night.
If I understand you right, you believe we should have music the same way the early church did.. you alluded to this when you mentioned the protest of the early church fathers.... is this what you believe?
If so, then why just music... why not everything.
Our Baptistic worship today looks nothing like the early church...
They didn't set in pews, etc.
They didn't use bulletins, and have a order of service.
If I was to adapt your belief about music, I would do it right... I would go all the way, and not just half the way.
We would learn the same style of music the early church sang...
The same style Paul sang when he was in prison...
And you know what, it would sound alot like what the mid-east music sounds like today... It would definately not be European/western music.
Every since the dark ages, the European church ... (moved to America in colonial times) has had the controlling factor of what church is supposed to look like.
Times are changing. Other cultures are being empowered, and their way of worship is different from ours... How are we going to react?
Our way or the highway?
Or do we recognize the fact that God is bigger than our American/European/Western mindset? And that He welcomes worship from all parts of the globe... not just from the southern USA.
Tell me, what type of music should be in church...
Give me some examples of songs that you sing in church... "
Excellent post! :thumbs: :thumbs:
Aaron has to answer these questions honestly,which he doesn't do. If you care to look at all his responses, he does the same thing,not really provide answers hoping that everyone who asks them will give up in frustration. Some "victory"...
But,he has the "courage" to condemn everyone else and then accuse us of "false piety" & hypocrisy when you and I said that we forgive him. And talk about being "holier than thou"! His words condemn no one but himself !
What Aaron also seems to forget is that all music (Western and Non-Western) has gone through many changes brought on by the discovery and development of musical literacy (actually assigning tones to the lines and spaces and writing music),chord structure,music theory,church & secular influences,musical instrument invention,societal change, influences by other cultures,etc.,that leads to the music (past & present) that we know today. See: http://www.classicfm.co.uk/Article.asp?id=215559&spid=9444
And here is a 5 part series on "Music Sacred & Profane" at Triablogue. Each one is quite lengthy, but edifying and enlightening:
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2005/01/music-sacred-profane-1.html
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2005/01/music-sacred-profane-2.html
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2005/01/music-sacred-profane-3.html
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2005/01/music-sacred-profane-4.html
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2005/01/music-sacred-profane-5.html
From Part 1: " The proverbial "music of the spheres" is not a mere figure of speech, but alludes to a full-blown musical cosmology. On the pagan side, this goes back to Pythagoras, with his ontological numerology as well as his discovery of musical ratios. Plato, in the Timaeus (35-6; 41-2; 47c-e), turned this idea into a creation-myth. The idea received a more "scientific" underpinning with Ptolemy’s work on Harmonics, as well as Nichomachus (Handbook of Harmonics [Encheiridion harmonikes]).
Greek speculation was popularized by such Roman writers as Cicero ("Somnium Scipionis," De republica 6:18), Capella, Apuleius, and Macrobius (Commentarii in Somnium Scipionis).
On the Christian side, this outlook was baptized, popularized, and systematized by Augustine (De Musica), Ammonius, Boethius (De Institutione Musica; De Nuptiis Philogiae et Mercurii), and Cassiodorus (Variae; Expositio in psalterium). "
So, pagan Greek & Roman philosophy influenced the early church fathers' views on music and was accepted as Biblical ! Hmm....
Something to think about...
In Christ,
Dale
You wrote: "Oh no... I am not bailing...:laugh:
I just went to bed last night.
If I understand you right, you believe we should have music the same way the early church did.. you alluded to this when you mentioned the protest of the early church fathers.... is this what you believe?
If so, then why just music... why not everything.
Our Baptistic worship today looks nothing like the early church...
They didn't set in pews, etc.
They didn't use bulletins, and have a order of service.
If I was to adapt your belief about music, I would do it right... I would go all the way, and not just half the way.
We would learn the same style of music the early church sang...
The same style Paul sang when he was in prison...
And you know what, it would sound alot like what the mid-east music sounds like today... It would definately not be European/western music.
Every since the dark ages, the European church ... (moved to America in colonial times) has had the controlling factor of what church is supposed to look like.
Times are changing. Other cultures are being empowered, and their way of worship is different from ours... How are we going to react?
Our way or the highway?
Or do we recognize the fact that God is bigger than our American/European/Western mindset? And that He welcomes worship from all parts of the globe... not just from the southern USA.
Tell me, what type of music should be in church...
Give me some examples of songs that you sing in church... "
Excellent post! :thumbs: :thumbs:
Aaron has to answer these questions honestly,which he doesn't do. If you care to look at all his responses, he does the same thing,not really provide answers hoping that everyone who asks them will give up in frustration. Some "victory"...
But,he has the "courage" to condemn everyone else and then accuse us of "false piety" & hypocrisy when you and I said that we forgive him. And talk about being "holier than thou"! His words condemn no one but himself !
What Aaron also seems to forget is that all music (Western and Non-Western) has gone through many changes brought on by the discovery and development of musical literacy (actually assigning tones to the lines and spaces and writing music),chord structure,music theory,church & secular influences,musical instrument invention,societal change, influences by other cultures,etc.,that leads to the music (past & present) that we know today. See: http://www.classicfm.co.uk/Article.asp?id=215559&spid=9444
And here is a 5 part series on "Music Sacred & Profane" at Triablogue. Each one is quite lengthy, but edifying and enlightening:
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2005/01/music-sacred-profane-1.html
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2005/01/music-sacred-profane-2.html
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2005/01/music-sacred-profane-3.html
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2005/01/music-sacred-profane-4.html
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2005/01/music-sacred-profane-5.html
From Part 1: " The proverbial "music of the spheres" is not a mere figure of speech, but alludes to a full-blown musical cosmology. On the pagan side, this goes back to Pythagoras, with his ontological numerology as well as his discovery of musical ratios. Plato, in the Timaeus (35-6; 41-2; 47c-e), turned this idea into a creation-myth. The idea received a more "scientific" underpinning with Ptolemy’s work on Harmonics, as well as Nichomachus (Handbook of Harmonics [Encheiridion harmonikes]).
Greek speculation was popularized by such Roman writers as Cicero ("Somnium Scipionis," De republica 6:18), Capella, Apuleius, and Macrobius (Commentarii in Somnium Scipionis).
On the Christian side, this outlook was baptized, popularized, and systematized by Augustine (De Musica), Ammonius, Boethius (De Institutione Musica; De Nuptiis Philogiae et Mercurii), and Cassiodorus (Variae; Expositio in psalterium). "
So, pagan Greek & Roman philosophy influenced the early church fathers' views on music and was accepted as Biblical ! Hmm....
Something to think about...
In Christ,
Dale
Last edited by a moderator:
Dale McNamee
New Member
Dear Aaron,
You wrote: " Well, let's see here. I'm accuse of being Pharisaical, and yet you commit the characteristic sin of the Pharisees, putting on a show of piety to so that you would look pious to your buddies.:applause:
[ Obviously you didn't read Col 3:13-14:
"13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
No "show of piety" on my part.]
Two thumbs way, way up for that performance, BTW. :thumbs: :thumbs:
[ Thanks for the compliment!]
But rest assured that I have have no emotional investment in this discussion.
[Neither do I. I'm only interested in confronting erroneous teaching and the misuse of Scripture to "proof text" your mere opinions.
Also,if you don't have an emotional investment in the discussion,why do you go on ?]
In Christ,
Dale
You wrote: " Well, let's see here. I'm accuse of being Pharisaical, and yet you commit the characteristic sin of the Pharisees, putting on a show of piety to so that you would look pious to your buddies.:applause:
[ Obviously you didn't read Col 3:13-14:
"13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
No "show of piety" on my part.]
Two thumbs way, way up for that performance, BTW. :thumbs: :thumbs:
[ Thanks for the compliment!]
But rest assured that I have have no emotional investment in this discussion.
[Neither do I. I'm only interested in confronting erroneous teaching and the misuse of Scripture to "proof text" your mere opinions.
Also,if you don't have an emotional investment in the discussion,why do you go on ?]
In Christ,
Dale
Dale McNamee
New Member
Dear Aaron,
You wrote to Tim:
"A good investment would be the Treasury of David by C.H. Spurgeon. (There's an online copy if you can't bear to part with some of your CD or hair-dye money.) See what he and the other contributors said about these things.
Quote:
I forgive you.
For what? For offering you gold in exchange for your brass? Save it. "
Nice loving Christian sentiment...
Tell me,what passage from the Bible defended those comments,especially the bolded one ?
In Christ,
Dale
You wrote to Tim:
"A good investment would be the Treasury of David by C.H. Spurgeon. (There's an online copy if you can't bear to part with some of your CD or hair-dye money.) See what he and the other contributors said about these things.
Quote:
I forgive you.
For what? For offering you gold in exchange for your brass? Save it. "
Nice loving Christian sentiment...
Tell me,what passage from the Bible defended those comments,especially the bolded one ?
In Christ,
Dale
As I am going more grey, I am going to need more money for hair dye...
I think the series Aaron said I needed is in my e-sword program somewhere.
No actually, I want my hair pure white...
I only dye it when the kids dye it at VBS...
Next yr, I may shave it.
as a tribute to all the CCM artists out there with a bald head and a soul patch!!!
I think the series Aaron said I needed is in my e-sword program somewhere.
No actually, I want my hair pure white...
I only dye it when the kids dye it at VBS...
Next yr, I may shave it.
as a tribute to all the CCM artists out there with a bald head and a soul patch!!!
Dale McNamee
New Member
Dear Tim,
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
In Christ,
Dale
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
In Christ,
Dale
Replying to shotgun posts is tedious and consumes time that I don't have, so I will only hit the highlights here and ignore irrelevant statements.
To Bonga Dale:
Concerning your guilt-by-association argument in your attempt to marginalize the Early Fathers. What you don't understand is that correlations do not establish cause and effect relationships.
This bears repeating, correlations do not establish cause and effect relationships.
This is something that I've tried to communicate to you numerous times in the past, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in, so I'll say once more for the sake of the spectators if nothing else, CORRELATIONS DO NOT ESTABLISH CAUSE AND EFFECT RELATIONSHIPS. For example, Paul appeals to a "pagan" tenet on Mars' Hill. For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring, Acts 17:28. Following your logic, Paul could not have been capable of independent thought when quoting pagan poets or alluding to their teaching. But my point is the CORRELATION between the teachings of the pagans here and biblical Christianity. Can you assert that one is the cause of the other. No, because...
Anyone?
Anyone?
...because correlations do not establish cause and effect relationships.
Acts 17:28 is a biblical precedent and divine endorsement of the practice of the Early Fathers to quote pagan philosophers where their observations and conclusions agree with Christian doctrine and morality. Your premise that you've revealed a pagan corruption because you can find something taught by the Early Fathers in, say, a dialogue of Plato is erroneous at best. It just ain't the truth.
And concerning the "tit for tat" interactions. Is it right for me to answer some people in the manner in which they address me? There's a proverb that warns us that there's a danger of becoming "like them" if we do, but in some cases we must "lest they be wise after their own conceit." In a forum when the only interaction is the exchange of words, it's an effective weapon to reveal the conceit in what is being touted often as piety around here.
No. I asked you why, if it is so clear from the Psalms that God wants us to worship him with praise bands, dancing and other charismatic manners, neither the Hebrews nor the Christians of the first centuries read the Psalms that way. You have yet to answer that question.
To begin with, none that can be classified as excessive or riotous, sensual or even unseemly. Now, lest Bonga Dale attempt to say the question wasn't answered, I'll remind you to look at the first phrase, "to begin with." That is an invitation to dialogue about what God means by excess, riot, sensuality and seemliness ("decency" in 1 Cor. 14:40).
Nope, these threads are not about me, nor my preferences or practices. They're about "thus saith the Lord."
To Bonga Dale:
Concerning your guilt-by-association argument in your attempt to marginalize the Early Fathers. What you don't understand is that correlations do not establish cause and effect relationships.
This bears repeating, correlations do not establish cause and effect relationships.
This is something that I've tried to communicate to you numerous times in the past, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in, so I'll say once more for the sake of the spectators if nothing else, CORRELATIONS DO NOT ESTABLISH CAUSE AND EFFECT RELATIONSHIPS. For example, Paul appeals to a "pagan" tenet on Mars' Hill. For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring, Acts 17:28. Following your logic, Paul could not have been capable of independent thought when quoting pagan poets or alluding to their teaching. But my point is the CORRELATION between the teachings of the pagans here and biblical Christianity. Can you assert that one is the cause of the other. No, because...
Anyone?
Anyone?
...because correlations do not establish cause and effect relationships.
Acts 17:28 is a biblical precedent and divine endorsement of the practice of the Early Fathers to quote pagan philosophers where their observations and conclusions agree with Christian doctrine and morality. Your premise that you've revealed a pagan corruption because you can find something taught by the Early Fathers in, say, a dialogue of Plato is erroneous at best. It just ain't the truth.
And concerning the "tit for tat" interactions. Is it right for me to answer some people in the manner in which they address me? There's a proverb that warns us that there's a danger of becoming "like them" if we do, but in some cases we must "lest they be wise after their own conceit." In a forum when the only interaction is the exchange of words, it's an effective weapon to reveal the conceit in what is being touted often as piety around here.
Aaron said:
Since you are a busy man... I realize this.... I just wanted to comment on this...
You started this thread.. so it is somewhat about you.
And since you want to teach us what is acceptable, then give us some examples...
Every good teacher knows they need to provide illustrations...
And since you say they are about "thus saith the Lord"..
Just where does the Lord say, Thou shalt not praise me with modern music?
BTW, I am still studying the music of the early church...
And nothing we sing today seems to sound like the stuff Jesus or Paul would sing...
Come on Aaron, give us some examples of music your church deems appropriate....
Our church sings the old hymns, the old camp meeting hymns, some Southern Gospel, and some Praise and Worship music... Sometimes we have solos of Casting Crowns, or Third Day songs...
We have a blended worship, and our church deems this appropriate...
And since you are not part of our church, condemn all you want... we don't care...
God is being Glorified, not Aaron.
ccrobinson
Active Member
You seem to have forgotten something important about interacting with people.
Luke 6:31
Dale McNamee
New Member
Dear Tim,
You wrote in response to Aaron:
" Since you are a busy man... I realize this.... I just wanted to comment on this...
You started this thread.. so it is somewhat about you.
And since you want to teach us what is acceptable, then give us some examples...
Every good teacher knows they need to provide illustrations...
And since you say they are about "thus saith the Lord"..
Just where does the Lord say, Thou shalt not praise me with modern music?
BTW, I am still studying the music of the early church...
And nothing we sing today seems to sound like the stuff Jesus or Paul would sing...
Come on Aaron, give us some examples of music your church deems appropriate....
Our church sings the old hymns, the old camp meeting hymns, some Southern Gospel, and some Praise and Worship music... Sometimes we have solos of Casting Crowns, or Third Day songs...
We have a blended worship, and our church deems this appropriate...
And since you are not part of our church, condemn all you want... we don't care...
God is being Glorified, not Aaron. "
Another excellent post !:thumbs: :thumbs:
I especially agree with your last paragraph. !
In Christ,
Dale
You wrote in response to Aaron:
" Since you are a busy man... I realize this.... I just wanted to comment on this...
You started this thread.. so it is somewhat about you.
And since you want to teach us what is acceptable, then give us some examples...
Every good teacher knows they need to provide illustrations...
And since you say they are about "thus saith the Lord"..
Just where does the Lord say, Thou shalt not praise me with modern music?
BTW, I am still studying the music of the early church...
And nothing we sing today seems to sound like the stuff Jesus or Paul would sing...
Come on Aaron, give us some examples of music your church deems appropriate....
Our church sings the old hymns, the old camp meeting hymns, some Southern Gospel, and some Praise and Worship music... Sometimes we have solos of Casting Crowns, or Third Day songs...
We have a blended worship, and our church deems this appropriate...
And since you are not part of our church, condemn all you want... we don't care...
God is being Glorified, not Aaron. "
Another excellent post !:thumbs: :thumbs:
I especially agree with your last paragraph. !
In Christ,
Dale
Dale McNamee
New Member
Re : Flower Power
Dear CC,
You wrote: "
Quote:
And concerning the "tit for tat" interactions. Is it right for me to answer some people in the manner in which they address me? There's a proverb that warns us that there's a danger of becoming "like them" if we do, but in some cases we must "lest they be wise after their own conceit." In a forum when the only interaction is the exchange of words, it's an effective weapon to reveal the conceit in what is being touted often as piety around here.
You seem to have forgotten something important about interacting with people.
Luke 6:31
Quote:
And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
:thumbs:
To that I would add Col. 3: 8-15:
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
In Christ,
Dale
Dear CC,
You wrote: "
Quote:
And concerning the "tit for tat" interactions. Is it right for me to answer some people in the manner in which they address me? There's a proverb that warns us that there's a danger of becoming "like them" if we do, but in some cases we must "lest they be wise after their own conceit." In a forum when the only interaction is the exchange of words, it's an effective weapon to reveal the conceit in what is being touted often as piety around here.
You seem to have forgotten something important about interacting with people.
Luke 6:31
Quote:
And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
:thumbs:
To that I would add Col. 3: 8-15:
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
In Christ,
Dale