Flower Power

Dear Aaron:

You wrote:

" To Bonga Dale:

Concerning your guilt-by-association argument in your attempt to marginalize the Early Fathers. What you don't understand is that correlations do not establish cause and effect relationships.

This bears repeating, correlations do not establish cause and effect relationships.

This is something that I've tried to communicate to you numerous times in the past, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in, so I'll say once more for the sake of the spectators if nothing else, CORRELATIONS DO NOT ESTABLISH CAUSE AND EFFECT RELATIONSHIPS. For example, Paul appeals to a "pagan" tenet on Mars' Hill. For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring, Acts 17:28. Following your logic, Paul could not have been capable of independent thought when quoting pagan poets or alluding to their teaching. But my point is the CORRELATION between the teachings of the pagans here and biblical Christianity. Can you assert that one is the cause of the other. No, because...

Anyone?

Anyone?

...because correlations do not establish cause and effect relationships.
Acts 17:28 is a biblical precedent and divine endorsement of the practice of the Early Fathers to quote pagan philosophers where their observations and conclusions agree with Christian doctrine and morality. Your premise that you've revealed a pagan corruption because you can find something taught by the Early Fathers in, say, a dialogue of Plato is erroneous at best. It just ain't the truth. "

Again, YOU miss the point...

From Part 1 of : " Music-Sacred & Profane":

" The proverbial "music of the spheres" is not a mere figure of speech, but alludes to a full-blown musical cosmology. On the pagan side, this goes back to Pythagoras, with his ontological numerology as well as his discovery of musical ratios. Plato, in the Timaeus (35-6; 41-2; 47c-e), turned this idea into a creation-myth. The idea received a more "scientific" underpinning with Ptolemy’s work on Harmonics, as well as Nichomachus (Handbook of Harmonics [Encheiridion harmonikes]).

Greek speculation was popularized by such Roman writers as Cicero ("Somnium Scipionis," De republica 6:18), Capella, Apuleius, and Macrobius (Commentarii in Somnium Scipionis).

On the Christian side, this outlook was baptized, popularized, and systematized by Augustine (De Musica), Ammonius, Boethius (De Institutione Musica; De Nuptiis Philogiae et Mercurii), and Cassiodorus (Variae; Expositio in psalterium). "

Apparently you didn't read these paragraphs,especially the last one.

Don't accuse me of trying to minimize the Early Church Fathers by suggesting that pagan Greek and Roman philosophies influenced them in the area of music.

Answer me this... Can someone,who was a member of the Manichean Gnostic sect for 12 years,as was Augustine,NOT BE influenced by them in his views,even indirectly ?

If what I'm saying isn't true,why did Paul write in Col. 2:4-23:

" 4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.


5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION OF MEN, after the RUDIMENTS OF THIS WORLD, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." ?

So much for the "demeanor" arguement...

What I'm saying is that no one,not Augustine and the Early Church Fathers,not you,nor I,or anyone else are immune to being influenced by the philosophies taught and promulgated today.

Back to the "correlations" arguement:

You wrote: " This is something that I've tried to communicate to you numerous times in the past, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in, so I'll say once more for the sake of the spectators if nothing else, CORRELATIONS DO NOT ESTABLISH CAUSE AND EFFECT RELATIONSHIPS. For example, Paul appeals to a "pagan" tenet on Mars' Hill. For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring, Acts 17:28. Following your logic, Paul could not have been capable of independent thought when quoting pagan poets or alluding to their teaching. But my point is the CORRELATION between the teachings of the pagans here and biblical Christianity. Can you assert that one is the cause of the other. No, because..."

I didn't say that "one causes the other",but each one CAN INFLUENCE the other. As for Paul...While he quoted the poet,he went right on to preach Christ and Him crucified.

Have you listened to people who convert to Christianity after being a Jew,Muslim,atheist,agnostic,etc. They wrestle with their faith and the "discarding" of their previously held beliefs which can still "color" their views.

How about Catholics who become Protestant (as I did) or vice versa ?

Regarding me, I was raised Catholic and inoculated with all of the Catholic teachings. I was taught the teachings of the Early Church Fathers as well.

When I left Catholicism, what was taught to me still "colored" my views. As I learned Protestant doctrinal teachings, I "discarded" most of what I had been taught,but some still remains,the things that both Protestants & Catholics agree on...

That was what I was getting at regarding being "influenced" by philosophy !

So,if Scripture doesn't mention explicitly the "rightness or wrongness" of contemporary worship music, then what does ?

Tradition ?

In Christ,

Dale

 

Here's a link to a paper on Augustine's "On Music" : http://www.geocities.com/briggsbe/antiquity/aug-music.html

From the section on Greek Philosophy :

" In Plato's Republic all musical instruments are forbidden except the lyre and cithara.(1) Socrates and Gloucon agree that music has tremendous power for educational purposes. Therefore, they are careful in deciding which types of music should be allowed into the ideal republic.(2) The doctrine of ethos deals with the moral qualities of music and seems to be related to the idea of s cosmic dimension in music discovered by Pythagoras. The doctrine of ethos, however, goes beyond the Pythagorean conception that music merely shares in the greater cosmic order, and holds that it may also affect the universe in some way.(3) Aristotle wrote about the moral influence music may have upon human beings. He observed that music imitates emotions and states of the soul, such as love, hate, bravery, fear, goodwill, and violence. Therefore, as one listens to such music that imitates a certain emotion, one will come to embody that same emotion. If one repeatedly listens to music that inspires base emotions, one's character will be molded to a base form. On the other hand, habitually listening to music that inspires more noble aspects of humanity may positively shape one's character.(4) Both Plato and Aristotle agreed upon the importance of music in education. Proper education was to include a balance of gymnastics and music, of both training for the body and training for the mind. In the Republic Plato stresses the need for balance, since too much music will make a man effeminate and too much gymnastic will make a man uncultivated, unlearned, and violent.(5) "

Hmmm...

And it still "influences" the CCM critics...

In Christ,

Dale

 

You know, i was willing to participate in this discussion, until i read this:

 

Well Paul and Silas did sing in the prison, and it rocks rolled that night!

So you won't tell us what songs you would sing...
Amazing!


Come on, what is your favorite song?
Mine is... and this might surprise you, "It is well with my soul"

I absolutely love that song.. especially the 3rd verse!

I will go along with style being manner...
but with what do we judge that the manner of communication is decent and in order?

Again, you have to judge objectively, not subjectively...
And to do that, you need Bible verses to back you up.

A Casting Crowns concert is decent and in order when I look at it subjectively...
But you would disagree.

So, there has to be an authority... This is the Word of God.
So Tell me, where in the Word of God is modern music condemned..

 

Dear Aaron,

You wrote:

" Bonga Dale: Concerning Augustine and Pythagoras and Plato, it would help you immensely to actually read what Augustine said about them before you leap to conclusions based on cursory Internet searches that kick out links to personal web pages, many of which have an ax to grind.

[ Is your charge of "having an ax to grind" due to the fact that the authors don't conform to your opinions and beliefs ? ]

It just so happens that I've been reading The City of God, and there are plenty of references to Plato and Pythagoras (among others). One of the references touches directly on one of your quotes about the music of the spheres. Augustine called it mere conjecture, and if the Platonists have no trouble buying into that conjecture, why the trouble in believing in the Resurrection?

[ I've also read The City of God. Augustine wrote in to defend Christianity against the charges by Roman pagans that Christianity caused the fall of Rome. He then goes on to prove their beliefs and philosophy wrong. ]

[ Regarding the bolded paragraph. Are YOU saying that Jesus' Resurrection is conjecture ??? BE VERY CAREFUL ! Equating belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus to pagan conjecture is morally dangerous and deadly. ]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XIII.17.html


Quote:
Answer me this... Can someone,who was a member of the Manichean Gnostic sect for 12 years,as was Augustine,NOT BE influenced by them in his views,even indirectly ?

Yes. It happens all the time. People who were once Evolutionists become staunch 6-day, young earth Creationists. St. Paul was steeped in rabbinical tradition, and became the most eloquent expositor on justification by faith.

Yet there are those who try to say that some of Paul's sentiments in the NT are due to the narrow views he developed growing up and learning as a Pharisee, just as you are saying some of Augustine's view, none of which you really know because you haven't read them, HAVE to be influence by his years as a pagan.

[ Again,show me where Christian doctrines are contained in the Dialogues of Plato,the writings of Aristotle,the Stoics, and Epicureans, the Neo-Platonists ,etc. And just because I don't agree with your take on the subject,don't accuse me of not reading Augustine. Your arrogance and presumption are galling !]

In fact, what I've read of Augustine, he is an elloquent expositor and apologist clearly revealing the foolishness and hypocrisy of the pagan philosophers where their teachings contradict Christianity.

[ No disagreement there. ]

Quote:
If what I'm saying isn't true,why did Paul write in Col. 2:4-23:

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION OF MEN, after the RUDIMENTS OF THIS WORLD, and not after Christ. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Interesting you should bring that up. This isn't an injuction on reading or studying the philosophies of worldly teachers. Otherwise Paul would never have alluded to their sayings. Paul states elsewhere that God has shown people just like these philosophers His eternal godhead and power. And when reading some of the things that some of them have said, that's very evident. Plato taught that everything good comes from God, that he is the source of all being, and that true happiness comes from knowing God. Since Plato predates the NT, would you assert that the NT writers were merely influenced by Plato? Of course not.

[ I NEVER said not to study worldly philosophies. Or other religions for that matter ! What I'm pointing to is incoroprating their beliefs into Christianity. That's how heresies are created.

You mentioned that "Plato taught that everything good comes from God, that he is the source of all being, and that true happiness comes from knowing God."

But which God ? The God of the Bible or the "Immovable Mover",the "First Cause" ? You'd do well to look at Greek religious beliefs,
especially Gnosticism (which Plato believed in) and ask yourself if the God of Gnosticism is the same as the God of the Scriptures.
By the same token,everybody today says that they believe in God,but which one ? ]

The admonition is to "beware" the philosophies, not to avoid them altogether, though I wouldn't recommend them to those who are weak or unlearned in the faith.

[ Again, I wouldn't disagree with you on that point. I would only add that many of the "wise and learned" get seduced by them. ]

I hope that this clarifies things.

In Christ,

Dale

 

Maybe not unseemly, but inappropriate in certain situations....

For instance... There are some songs that should be used in Worship, and some that are just for entertainment...

Some I listen too in my car driving down the road, I would not use in a worship service just because they are not written to be in a worship service, but just for entertainment...

I like Jesus Freak by DC Talk, but I would never use it in a Sunday Morning Worship service....

Songs used in worship should direct us to God, not entertain us.
BUT... There is nothing wrong with being entertained by Christian music.

Sure beats other stuff on the radio!

 

That's a tough question...
It would all depend upon the situation.
For a Sunday Morning Worship service, It would be music that helps us worship God... and this can be many styles... It would depend on the song.... Hymns, Some Southern Gospel, Praise and Worship, and some CCM Ballads like "Cry out to Jesus" would be appropriate (depending on lyrics) because they can point us to God, and prepare our hearts for the message...

Other situations like a youth event, CCM and Praise and Worship would be appropriate.... I can't imagine teens enjoying old time bluegrass style Gospel... although it would be possible I guess in some of the redneck areas of our country.

I wouldn't want something flippant played at a funeral... But something that is emotional. To help the mourners mourn.
And before you start in on emotions.. .let me share with you my belief... God Created them... emotions are not bad.. and music is able to create certain emotional responses....This is a good thing, not a bad thing.
I've heard everything from hymns to CCM played...
I also predict that Chris Daughtry's song "Going Home" will be used some in the next yr.

At a wedding, I wouldn't play funeral music.. (although sometimes a wedding seems like a funeral! lol) Love songs would be appropriate...

At a party, we wouldn't play hymns, but maybe some CCM and hip hop...

Driving down the road, it depends on the mood I am in...
If I am depressed... it is Southern Gospel... if I am in a good mood, CCM...

So the line is drawn depending on the situation the music is to be used in.

 

For a worship service yes.. I would draw the line.
For a Christian concert or youth event.. just tell me where it would be, and I would be there!

 

If it can cause you to shake your groove thing, I draw the line. If it causes ppl to run down the isles waiving their hanky's, I draw the line.

:thumbs:

 

Honestly, when I really examine it, it is based on the culture and tradition of our Baptist churches... which hopefully is founded in Scripture.

More later... gotta go.

 

Only subjectively....
What is excessive to you, may not be excessive to me...

What really matters is what is excessive to God...
Again I ask for scripture that shows what music style is not acceptable to God....

You admitted earlier that David played music and danced, but didn't in the temple... why? It was not appropriate in the temple... I have agreed that, according to the situation, some music is appropriate and some is not...

Was David condemned by God for dancing?
No, God accepted it.
Would I want that type dancing in our church service? No.. it is not appropriate there, but it may be in another setting.

God gave us common sense... and expects us to use it.

I personally love screaming Guitars... to me it is not excessive... it is guitarists using their talents to praise God...
I love to hear it... better than the twang of a banjo... but that is my subjective opinion.
It is what is in their heart... does God accept the worship of a screaming guitarist? Depends if they are worshipping God, or doing it for the money!

But the same can be said of preachers also...
There are preachers people flock to...
If they get prideful, they are no better...

Even SG singers.... or choirs... or any other type of ministry in the church...