Bob,
In the Arminian camp, i see a need to avoid parts of the Bible. There is a need to focus on Gods Love and avoid other things about God.
What you have not dealt with or choose not to address is Gods self-existence, self-sufficiency nature which is in absolute authority over His creation. To be sovereign, God must also be all-knowing, all-powerful and absolutely free to do as He pleases. If we limit Him in any area He is not Sovereign. Sovereignty is greater than any attribute of God which the word sovereign reigns over.
For instance
You speak well of Gods love. Gods love is very great. If God is not fully in control, circumstances could disable Gods love and make it useless for us. All attributes of God hang on this. Can God be judge and we then have complete justice if God is not in complete control?
a few verses..1 chron. 29: 11-12
11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty; for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all. 12 Both riches and honor come from thee, and thou rulest over all. In thy hand are power and might; and in thy hand it is to make great and to give strength to all
ps. 24:1,
1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD's and the fulness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein;
ps 46:10,
10 "Be still, and know that I am God. I am exalted among the nations, I am exalted in the earth!"
ps. 47:7-8
7 For God is the king of all the earth; sing praises with a psalm! 8 God reigns over the nations; God sits on his holy throne.
The real problem with the sovereignty of God is from mans view. If you are saved, then you did in fact make that choice. This however would be wrong to say it was our free will that choose God. God in His sovereity places kings in place to rule.
Wait, i voted for my leaders. Yes, but God placed them there. The Bible tells us that God will put hooks in the jaws of Gog and Magog and pull them down on israel. It may not be worded just like that...but something close. The Bible tells of God choosing Isaac and hating isau. Hating? Yes, hating. These are but a few instances of Gods sovereignty at work. This shows God is in control...where as your verses speak of His love.
In salvation no one can say God loved me because i am good and now I'm going to heaven where I belong. We all belong in hell. We all have sinned. 1 sin or 1,000,000,000 sins...it does not matter. “The rages of sin is death”...so yes, hell should be our home. When Adam fell into sin all of mankind fell with him.
“in sin did my mother conceive me.”
Therefore..”all have sinned and come short”.
Man is complete helpless..and has no knowledge of God.....
“none seek after God”.
God did not have to send His son. Man was loss. Man was on his way toward hell. Man deserves hell. This could be the end of the story. But God in His love sent His son. WHY? ...
What is man that thou are mindful of him?”
I don't know why. But I do know this. It is because of Gods sovereignty that we have Gods love. Gods sovereignty is in fact real and makes everything else
about God reality. You ask..Is it really Love or robots? Yes... this is Gods love.
A look at the models shows where the battle is…Gods Sovereignty/ Mans will
Calvinisim…
1) Total depravity (Original Sin)
2) Unconditional election (God's Election)
3) Limited atonement (Particular Redemption)
4) Irresistible grace (Effectual Calling)
5) Perseverance of the Saints
1….Mans need with no power
2…Gods love and Power
3…Gods control and power
4…Gods saving Power
5….Gods Holding POWER
Jacobus Arminius came along and felt he could not defend these 5 points.
These 5 points of Arminius follows:
1) Free Will with Partial Depravity
2) Resistible Grace
3) Fall from Grace
4) Conditional Election
5) Universal Atonement
1…Man has the power to choose
2…man can over power Gods grace.
3…Man can over power Gods seal
4…Man deeds are what makes God save him.
5…Sins of the unsaved over power the Blood of God.
Man will vs Gods power
Is God in control?
romans 9 11-20
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or
bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not
because of works but because of his call, she was told, "The elder will
serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no
means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have
mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So it
depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. For
the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very
purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be
proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy upon whomever he
wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. You will say to
me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But
who are you, a man, to answer back to God?
Paul shows God does not use His sovereignty arbitrary power as you state He would do if man had no freewill, but rather in MERCY he chooses.
You also said..to believe this would mean man has no responsibility.
But Paul covers that too..
”Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Is God unfair..
romans 11
O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How
unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34 "For
who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"
part of this is from Isaac..
this is an rhetorically question.....who can know the mind of God?
no one knows His mind.
There are many verse like this that shows God In full control...mixed with Mans need to choose God. I'll not cover Mans need...you have done a great job on this.
Now as to ..non posse non peccare
THE TRUE STATE OF MAN……..
Man can not choose until God reaches out to him. Why? I feel that is because man is Dead in his sins.
Our Lord spoke the religious leaders and asked this rhetorically question himself.
43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
*****He was not say that were physically deaf, but rather spiritually dead. They could not understand what he was saying.
next look at john 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.
*******The lost can not receive the Holy Spirit at his will. The holy spirit is given. The unsaved does not know Him.
next...back to romans 8: 7-8
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
******The mind of those in the flesh..this is talking of the unsaved..you can read the rest of the passage and see this....the mind is hostile and CANNOT follow him.
next 1 cor. 2:14
14 The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
*******The lost can not understand.
also look at romans 3 on this
we have just shown that the lost ...
1) hear NOT the word..
2) they receive NOT the Holy Spirit
3) they submit NOT to Gods law...
4) they do NOT understand biblical teaching...
5) they do NOT cease from sinning.
Man is Dead in the things of God
This is very clear
Pelagius and others had concern as you have...Can a person be responsible if he or she is not free? Does it mean that a person is a robot or programmed by God..if he is denied free will?
You have stated as many before you..”
1) the Bible says that anyone can come
2) that any that come to Christ will be saved.
3) and again...jesus said..if we come to him..he will in no wise cast out.
This is ture..as are all the other verses you posted. But that is not the point. certainly any one that wills may come.
But who will come? N
NE will come...unless God reaches out and shows His Love 1st
SIN..
This is how i understand mans sin nature and sin.
Understanding what sin is very important. Sin is a transgression into God. Sin is a path a wrong way. A way from Gods way. This is why Sin could never have been made by God. If it is made by God it is not a transgression. In the same light, sin is more then just a said sin. In other words, sin is more then just murder..but it is also the path away from God that leads to murder. If you do not see sin in this light you will end up in a works salvation.
What most call the “original sin is not when sin was formed. Nor is it really the 1st sin. The 1st sin was when satan choose to lift himself above God. This made sin and also a “sin principle”. The sin principle is set against God as a system of evil.
The “original sin” as a phase in the doctrine of sin refers to the 1st sin by mankind. This of course is Adam in the garden. What happen when man sinned? Man fall and is dead spiritually. God said, “ this day you will surely die” Adam totally corrupted his human nature in his fall. In turn Adams sin caused his children to receive that same spiritually dead nature. Every one since Adam has received this sin nature. Note this, God did follow though with this and Adam did die that very day.
Gen 8 :21 (evil from his youth)
And when the LORD smelled the pleasing odor, the LORD
said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground
because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil
from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every
living creature as I have done.
Job 14 : 1-4 (unclean)
"Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of
trouble. He comes forth like a flower, and withers; he flees
like a shadow, and continues not. And dost thou open thy
eyes upon such a one and bring him into judgment with
thee? Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?
ps 51 : 5 ( iniquity/ sin)
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my
mother conceive me.
Eccles 9 :3 (evil)
This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that one
fate comes to all; also the hearts of men are full of evil,
and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after
that they go to the dead.
Jer. 17 :9 (corrupt)
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately
corrupt; who can understand it?
Romans 1 21-32 (all of this)
for although they knew God they did not honor him as God
or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their
thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming
to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of
the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or
birds or animals or reptiles. Therefore God gave them up in
the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of
their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged
the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the
creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever!
Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable
passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for
passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for
unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations
with women and were consumed with passion for one
another, men committing shameless acts with men and
receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their
error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God,
God gave them up to a base mind and to improper
conduct. They were filled with all manner of wickedness,
evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife,
deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of
God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil,
disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Though they know God's decree that those who do such
things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve
those who practice them.
Romans 3 : 9-18
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I
have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks,
are under the power of sin, as it is written: "None is
righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks
for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone
wrong; no one does good, not even one." "Their throat is
an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The
venom of asps is under their lips." "Their mouth is full of
curses and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood,
in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace
they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their
eyes
*************
We have showen without debate a strong doctrine based fully on Gods word that mans nature fall into a total sin nature. Total depravity means that corruption extends to every part of mans..or i mean the unsaved mans nature. From total depravity or ...lets call it total inability we set other doctrines with in sin.
Lets look at some more verse to back this statement up.
Sin Nature affects his thinking................................
gen, 6: 5
The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
romans 8: 5-8
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on
the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the
Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the
mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the
Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh
is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it
cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 cor. 2:14
The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit
of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to
understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
*****Sin Nature affects his emotions and attitudes.......................
John 3 :19-20
And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the
world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because
their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates
the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds
should be exposed.
John 8 : 44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your
father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning,
and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no
truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own
nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
eph 4 :18
they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from
the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them,
due to their hardness of heart;
****his body.........................
Rom. 8 :10
But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead
because of sin, your spirits are alive because of
righteousness.
I Cor. 15:50
I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the
imperishable.
last...Sin Nature binds mans will.
john 5 :40
yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
eph 2 :2-3
in which you once walked, following the course of this
world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit
that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. Among
these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh,
following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by
nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
It is true that some verses can be used on many points of the study....but it show more is at work then only mans will. Man can not choose God
because he does not know of God...till God reaches out to
him.
Aaaaw wait now. John 1 says man is now ENLIGHTEN.
In context it says…man can now be saved..for the light has now come.
But still…man does not know Him.
But more then that, man does not have the natrue to chose God. Its the same reason as why the lion will not eat hay. The it is not in the nature of the lion to eat hay. He could do it...but he does not want to eat it. Man will not choose God...it is not in his nature. Yes..God reaches out to him...God calls all to be saved...but none come to him..till the holy spirit calls them.
Man is dead spiritually as God said he would be for sinning in the garden. Man can not choose God...nor will he choose God...because he does not want to choose God...and he does not know of God. Not till God reaches out to man.
When we do not understand sin/law and grace/ love in the right light we will end up with a works based salvation.
You see this in your post often..
Mans part…
Gods part..
The bad part of this salvation plan is MAN. Man will always fell. Man will always sin.
In works salvation Man MUST help in his salvation. Jacobus Arminius takes this path of works. Arminius said…Gods saving power is not all you need..you must also help God by working…help God by chooseing…help God by keeping. Arminius says..God needs help.
We can see where this does not work. What could we ever do to be good in Gods eyes that would help in salvation? Was his blood not the full price of sin or must we do more? If we are saved by works..do we know if david is in heaven? How about paul.?? Maybe these 2 guys sinned and lost their salvation..before dieing
Some want to take both said in this debate. They want to hold to salvation forever and mans freewill. You can not mix the 2…and you will see this if you play each point out to the limit. But I will give it to you Bob. You have study his the subject and know both can not go together. You seem to hold to the full Arminian postion. This takes the Arminian side in every point and this is what you get….WORKS
Election and freewill can not both work. I use to try to mix the two, but failed. If man chooses God, Gods election is not needed. If God chooses based on mans works, then we have works from start to finished. If works can save, then works can make you lost again. This is what you see in your post about deeds. This is why wes always attacks Grace.
I say…For by GRACE you are saved..though faith” Faith comes hearing…no just with our ears..but understanding. If we see really who God is..and our need…how can we resist?
Salvation is by the Lord.
In Christ…James
