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For God so loved the world
- Thread starter King James Bond
- Start date
King James Bond
New Member
Bob,
God hates people that sin. He also loves people that sin. Does that make sense to you? Probably not!
It is written in Scripture that God loved one person, and hated another person.
The entire text was written to show sovereign election!
Children of the "promise".
It is showing the very thing you hate to think about.
It is showing that it is nothing to do with human will, ancestory, deeds and or actions.
It is all because of Him who calls!
They were twins, you know, same mother and same father.
They were not EVEN born yet!
They did not work, will, effort, think, pray, hope, choose, not choose, dream, vision, or anything at all!
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
God's purposes are according to His choices.
it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
By nature humans will complain about that.
Well God is just!
If He gives one man eyes and another man no eyes and no legs..He is just!
If He gives one person a long life, and requires the life of another at age 2, He is still fair!
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Most people probably thought of Pharoah like a god on earth. When he spoke, people trembled! But look at what Scripture said about him.
God raised Pharaoh up just to demonstrate His power! That was Pharaohs purpose in life.
God makes the mighty and He brings them down all according to His own will.
God's purpose! Is it Just? Always! Everything belongs to Him to so with as He wills...after all...He created it all!
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
And it is just!
People will still complain and say things like
"well its not fair, for who can resist Him"?...."He made me like this so why will He still blame me"?...."If He made me like this He is responsible for my actions".
Scripture says;
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
By the way on your; "Not willing that any should perish" is a decreed will and you need to go to the start of the book to gain insight on that.
God bless.
KJB
God hates people that sin. He also loves people that sin. Does that make sense to you? Probably not!
It is written in Scripture that God loved one person, and hated another person.
The entire text was written to show sovereign election!
Children of the "promise".
It is showing the very thing you hate to think about.
It is showing that it is nothing to do with human will, ancestory, deeds and or actions.
It is all because of Him who calls!
They were twins, you know, same mother and same father.
They were not EVEN born yet!
They did not work, will, effort, think, pray, hope, choose, not choose, dream, vision, or anything at all!
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
God's purposes are according to His choices.
it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
By nature humans will complain about that.
Well God is just!
If He gives one man eyes and another man no eyes and no legs..He is just!
If He gives one person a long life, and requires the life of another at age 2, He is still fair!
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Most people probably thought of Pharoah like a god on earth. When he spoke, people trembled! But look at what Scripture said about him.
God raised Pharaoh up just to demonstrate His power! That was Pharaohs purpose in life.
God makes the mighty and He brings them down all according to His own will.
God's purpose! Is it Just? Always! Everything belongs to Him to so with as He wills...after all...He created it all!
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
And it is just!
People will still complain and say things like
"well its not fair, for who can resist Him"?...."He made me like this so why will He still blame me"?...."If He made me like this He is responsible for my actions".
Scripture says;
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
By the way on your; "Not willing that any should perish" is a decreed will and you need to go to the start of the book to gain insight on that.
God bless.
Timtoolman
New Member
Jarthor I would like you tol show me where others have said God picks those by the good in us.
Jarthur001
Active Member
You mean other than Bob?
Jarthur001
Active Member
Timtoolman
New Member
JA, The post was for all to read, but was address to Bob who holds to salvation + deeds. I can post for you links where bob says this. Also, others do hold to this other than Bob. If you do not, then do not apply this to yourself. Fair?
TIM…..If you are right please Bob speak up or JA you post where. And please do not post receiving a gift as a work. That tired old dog is a sham and dishonest. It is not now, nor ever will be considered a work by the receiver, except by Calvinist to bolster their belief in the teachings of J. Calvin.
JA….I'm not sure your point on the strawman. Maybe you can add more light to it. Let me just restate...there is nothing in me that made God send His Son..other then GRACE. I do not attach grace i hold to grace. When i said "why"...i was thinking as it says in psalms and heb.."What is man that thou art mindful of him?"
In other words...even knowing it was for LOVE that God came...i still do not see why...for i am a poor sinner.
anyway....please add more to the strawman so i can understand
TIM…I was asking you if you were trying to build another strawman when it is stated clearly He did it ouf of love. I didn’t realize you were just reflexing on why is it that God loves us. I agree with your statement. It was all of Him and within Him to give salvation. Nothing in man!
JA…..Gods sovereign has nothing to do with my views or your views tim. I can only state what is in Gods Word. God is sovereign and can do as he wishes. I have often posted this..."God has so much power he could have made you one hour ago with all the thoughts in your head where you think you lived yesterday and years before." Now did He? i don't think so...but he could have. My point is...sovereign means sovereign. my views will not stop God right or wrong.
TIM….exactly JA and if God has chosen to give man the choice then why would I say He was not sovereign. When we read in the old testament of the many staints who heard God verbally to do something then disobeyed do I stop and say God was not sovereign in that situation. No, I know as God says He can make man, or anything do His will. My pt is because someone believes the scriptures teach man must choose does not mean that person is calling God unsoveriegn.
JA….i posted verse you read them and tell me. Tim..i have a idea. Post verse on mans freewill. Not Gods will to save all mankind..but mans freewill to come and go to God any time he wises. That would help the debate...and if you claim i have strawman...any verse showing this would slam that strawman to the floor.
Tim…that is a non-answer. A question for a question will get us nowhere. I read your so called problem verses you post for us (at least I think that’s why you post them) and I say amen to them. They provide no problems for my biblical pt of view. So you post an answer with your interptation of what you think total depravity is. And we can go from there.
JA…Does it mean people cannot understand any spiritual truth? Scripture tells us that all men have the knowledge of God in them.
*********************
So faith comes from knowledge? Satan knows of God.
TIM……NO, did I state that or even imply that? I am trying to figure out what you def of total depravity is? I get a different def. from almost every Calvinist. What are you saying it is?
JA……after Adam was sent from the garden? yes.
TIM……????? Wrong! God found them hiding in the garden. AGAIN He spoke and they spoke. Both comprehended each other. Adam and Eve are totally depraved. So it doesn’t mean they didn’t recognize each other either. So what again is total depravity?
Here is some free will verses.
2 Pet 3:5. For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,
Rom 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Matt 23:27 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
Sovereignty or free will?…….BOTH.
TIM…..If you are right please Bob speak up or JA you post where. And please do not post receiving a gift as a work. That tired old dog is a sham and dishonest. It is not now, nor ever will be considered a work by the receiver, except by Calvinist to bolster their belief in the teachings of J. Calvin.
JA….I'm not sure your point on the strawman. Maybe you can add more light to it. Let me just restate...there is nothing in me that made God send His Son..other then GRACE. I do not attach grace i hold to grace. When i said "why"...i was thinking as it says in psalms and heb.."What is man that thou art mindful of him?"
In other words...even knowing it was for LOVE that God came...i still do not see why...for i am a poor sinner.
anyway....please add more to the strawman so i can understand
TIM…I was asking you if you were trying to build another strawman when it is stated clearly He did it ouf of love. I didn’t realize you were just reflexing on why is it that God loves us. I agree with your statement. It was all of Him and within Him to give salvation. Nothing in man!
JA…..Gods sovereign has nothing to do with my views or your views tim. I can only state what is in Gods Word. God is sovereign and can do as he wishes. I have often posted this..."God has so much power he could have made you one hour ago with all the thoughts in your head where you think you lived yesterday and years before." Now did He? i don't think so...but he could have. My point is...sovereign means sovereign. my views will not stop God right or wrong.
TIM….exactly JA and if God has chosen to give man the choice then why would I say He was not sovereign. When we read in the old testament of the many staints who heard God verbally to do something then disobeyed do I stop and say God was not sovereign in that situation. No, I know as God says He can make man, or anything do His will. My pt is because someone believes the scriptures teach man must choose does not mean that person is calling God unsoveriegn.
JA….i posted verse you read them and tell me. Tim..i have a idea. Post verse on mans freewill. Not Gods will to save all mankind..but mans freewill to come and go to God any time he wises. That would help the debate...and if you claim i have strawman...any verse showing this would slam that strawman to the floor.
Tim…that is a non-answer. A question for a question will get us nowhere. I read your so called problem verses you post for us (at least I think that’s why you post them) and I say amen to them. They provide no problems for my biblical pt of view. So you post an answer with your interptation of what you think total depravity is. And we can go from there.
JA…Does it mean people cannot understand any spiritual truth? Scripture tells us that all men have the knowledge of God in them.
*********************
So faith comes from knowledge? Satan knows of God.
TIM……NO, did I state that or even imply that? I am trying to figure out what you def of total depravity is? I get a different def. from almost every Calvinist. What are you saying it is?
JA……after Adam was sent from the garden? yes.
TIM……????? Wrong! God found them hiding in the garden. AGAIN He spoke and they spoke. Both comprehended each other. Adam and Eve are totally depraved. So it doesn’t mean they didn’t recognize each other either. So what again is total depravity?
Here is some free will verses.
2 Pet 3:5. For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,
Rom 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Matt 23:27 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
Sovereignty or free will?…….BOTH.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Good day Tim,
You are not letting up on this are you? It seems that you may be bring bagage into this tread. That is fine, for we all do this at times. Let me show you again why i would say this about bagage.
1) You thought i was blaming God for making Sin, but it was clear in my post i never said this. I however went on to repost more on this one subject to clear the air. I'm not sure if you now understand or not.
2) You overlooked my quote from the ps and heb about "WHY"..."what is man..."
3) You overlooked this was toward BOB 1st and took it as an attack on you.
4) You called the models my models, yet these models as stated are the very c/a models in which this forum is based.
Now lets look into this reply..........
In Christ...James
You are not letting up on this are you? It seems that you may be bring bagage into this tread. That is fine, for we all do this at times. Let me show you again why i would say this about bagage.
1) You thought i was blaming God for making Sin, but it was clear in my post i never said this. I however went on to repost more on this one subject to clear the air. I'm not sure if you now understand or not.
2) You overlooked my quote from the ps and heb about "WHY"..."what is man..."
3) You overlooked this was toward BOB 1st and took it as an attack on you.
4) You called the models my models, yet these models as stated are the very c/a models in which this forum is based.
Now lets look into this reply..........
Both..humm well i do not see it that way. but it is your view
In Christ...James
Jarthur001
Active Member
Jarthur001
Active Member
As stated many times LOVE is only one part of God. I understand it..i hold to it. I also take in account ALL things of God.
God is Holy and Hates sin.
God is the Judge of all mankind
God is in control of ALL
God has the POWER to do as He wishes
God has the POWER to know..
God knows our need before we do
"Before they call, I will answer" (Isaiah 65:24)
Do not get me wrong Bob. It is Gods love that i hold to. It is Gods love i preach. If God had not loved the world, we would not have Christ. Without Christ no atonement for sins. I feel that if we only focus on Gods Love we do not see all of God.
In Christ...James
Timtoolman
New Member
Too much is spent on attacking. YOu are right on the first pt I did jump the gun makeing God the author of sin. However you other 3 pts are invalid. YOur second pt could have been taken two ways. I didn't overlook it was too Bob. This is a forum and we all can respond or not too others. Besides Bob has done more show the flaws and foolishness of calvin's teachings then I ever could hope to do. I appreaciate Bob. And on you 4 pt your models I meant that you used them and apparently adhere to them. Either way they are something that some cavlinist printed up to feel more superior to those who do not adhere to the teachings of cavlin. Like a church calling themselves a Full Gospel Church. It is a way of saying our church use all the gospel and your doesn't. It is a way to put people on the defensive right away. Just like if I made my model...
1.Calvin's false teaching on depravity.
2.Calvin's humanistic veiw on unconditional election.
3.Calvin's teaching on the limtid sovereignty of God and the work of the cross.
etc. You get my pt.
So on the pt of Adam and Eve they weren't in their fallen state TILL God kick them out of the garden? It wasn't until God passed judgement. They disobeyed but actually not sinned till God past judgement on them. That my friend is TWISTED thinking! It matters not because God already had past judgement when He told them what would happen if they did. Remember, He said they would surely die.
I agree God is soveriegn and if you don't see soveriegnty and free will in the Bible then you have a very condense version. For it is saturated with both. Maybe My God is MORE soveriegn then your since he can allow man free will yet still acomplish HIs will? And I bet He doesn't even work up a sweat doing it. I am kidding about my God being more soveriegn. That is a calvinist tatic that I don't want to get into.
As far as bagage goes I don't know. I mean I get frustrated at the continued posting of verses that have been explained and yet ignored. That is all. I do not know calvin nor have I ever met him.
1.Calvin's false teaching on depravity.
2.Calvin's humanistic veiw on unconditional election.
3.Calvin's teaching on the limtid sovereignty of God and the work of the cross.
etc. You get my pt.
So on the pt of Adam and Eve they weren't in their fallen state TILL God kick them out of the garden? It wasn't until God passed judgement. They disobeyed but actually not sinned till God past judgement on them. That my friend is TWISTED thinking! It matters not because God already had past judgement when He told them what would happen if they did. Remember, He said they would surely die.
I agree God is soveriegn and if you don't see soveriegnty and free will in the Bible then you have a very condense version. For it is saturated with both. Maybe My God is MORE soveriegn then your since he can allow man free will yet still acomplish HIs will? And I bet He doesn't even work up a sweat doing it. I am kidding about my God being more soveriegn. That is a calvinist tatic that I don't want to get into.
As far as bagage goes I don't know. I mean I get frustrated at the continued posting of verses that have been explained and yet ignored. That is all. I do not know calvin nor have I ever met him.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Tim,
Thank you for you "open" reply. We all do this. I may do it more than you. I think the key is as you stated.."I get frustrated". One time some poor soul posted a attack on Calvinist that was way over the top. I had just came from a hated debate on another tread and laid out the law on him making him feel like a fool for saying something. Later that day i looked back to see if he replied and nothing was there. I reread my post and blushed from the boldness it which i posted. It was I that felt like a fool then. This poor soul i have never seen post again...and i hate that..for it was me that may have ran him off. So...no big deal tim..
PEACE
now i will adress you post below.
Thank you for you "open" reply. We all do this. I may do it more than you. I think the key is as you stated.."I get frustrated". One time some poor soul posted a attack on Calvinist that was way over the top. I had just came from a hated debate on another tread and laid out the law on him making him feel like a fool for saying something. Later that day i looked back to see if he replied and nothing was there. I reread my post and blushed from the boldness it which i posted. It was I that felt like a fool then. This poor soul i have never seen post again...and i hate that..for it was me that may have ran him off. So...no big deal tim..
PEACE
now i will adress you post below.
In Christ...James
Jarthur001
Active Member
Mans will.....
When we approach this subject on the basis of biblical teaching, we must speak only of the area of which it concerns. This is about our relationship with God. If we do not do this, we end up talking nonsense.
Over the past few notes I have tried to show from the Bible that the doctrine of total inability of man is shown in many ways from the promise of God in genesis to revelations. Nearly every book in the bible you will kind this doctrine in
form. When Adam sinned, there was generated in them the sin principle.
In this note I will only look at mans sin nature. This is not to say I do not think highly of Gods great love. I will address His love …but only in 2 short lines. I hope you will see in doing this how great Gods love is. It is when we see the sinner in need of God that we then see Gods love as pure as we can. To only speak of Gods love pulls down Gods love. To talk of Gods love as it sets beside mans sin..shows just how great it is.
What is a lost man?
A lost man is.... not able to understand the gifts of the Spirit of God, is not spiritually discerning, nor can he receive His Spirit of truth, nor can he understand, or bear to hear His Word, nor does he know the Holy spirit. He is
hostile to God, and will not submit to God's law, indeed he CANNOT submit to Gods law.
He can not please God, nor is spiritually discerning, he is a slave of sin and His
imagination in his heart is evil, unclean, conceived in sin. He is as unclean as a dog, stupid as a sheep, cunning as a fox, cruelty as a bear, subtlety as a serpent, stubborn as a ass
His heart is evil, and madness is in his heart, being deceitful, desperately corrupt, impurity, dishonoring, exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and is
dishonorable, committing shameless acts, filled with all manner of wickedness, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, inventors of evil, disobedient,
foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. because their deeds were evil, He is of his father the devil, and mans will is to do your father's desires.
Mans Father the devil, was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Man is darkened in their understanding, dead because of sin, refuse to come to
God, Man follows the course of this world, follows the prince of the power of the air, has the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, and is called the children of wrath.
"Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood, in their paths are ruin and misery, and the
way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes, wickedness of man is great in the earth, every imagination of the thoughts of his heart is only evil continually, men loved darkness rather than light.
From his heart comes evil thought, adulters, fornications, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness his thoughts are vanity, vile, selfish, his mind is carnal and is enity against God, his tongue is unruly and evil and full of poison, His hands works are iniquity, his
eyes are blinded, his eyes are deaf. He is poor and needy in his heart and is undone.
He is under the power of sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one."
This is why man is said to be in total inability. This guy is LOST!! Is DEAD All of this you will find in the Bible if this is true and this is fully based on the bible as stated above..so it is true....what am i to make of the fact i can still choose?
A person who objects to man having no will based on simple reason that he seems to be able to do as he wills is right in doing so. Actually man can do many
things of his will. Man has a will that lets him choose regarding nonessential
things. We can decide where to shop, what car to buy, what to eat, where we go to school, what team to cheer for….other things
By contrast there are areas in which we do not have will. Our IQ will only let us go so high on the charts. We can not will to have a IQ of 160 if we only have a IQ of 100. IQ can not be moved sideways. If we have high intelligence in art
does not mean we can force our will to a high level in business.
The same is true in the spiritually things. What did Adam have before the fall? Well he did have freewill. This was lost after the fall.
We may see a picture of this if we imagine Adam was on the side of a steep pit. and when God made Adam He said..”Adam, do not jump into the pit. If you jump into the pit...you can not get back out of the pit.” as long as Adam stayed on the edge of the pit he had freewill to jump or not to jump. But once he decided to jump, Adam had lost his freewill to get back to the edge. He did not loss his full will. He could still jump high....but not high enough to save himself. He could run and jump too. He could cry and blame it on someone else, make a ladder to reach high, no matter what was done Adam works fell short. Adams will was bond so he could not reach God. This is Adam and all mankind. Lost from ever reaching God on our own. Some are mad in this pit...some are fooled into works, some live a life sinning Most do not even know they are lost. But all are sinners. All are lost None can reach God on their own.
For reasons no one knows...and by grace alone… God reached down.
This is Gods grace
In Christ…James
When we approach this subject on the basis of biblical teaching, we must speak only of the area of which it concerns. This is about our relationship with God. If we do not do this, we end up talking nonsense.
Over the past few notes I have tried to show from the Bible that the doctrine of total inability of man is shown in many ways from the promise of God in genesis to revelations. Nearly every book in the bible you will kind this doctrine in
form. When Adam sinned, there was generated in them the sin principle.
In this note I will only look at mans sin nature. This is not to say I do not think highly of Gods great love. I will address His love …but only in 2 short lines. I hope you will see in doing this how great Gods love is. It is when we see the sinner in need of God that we then see Gods love as pure as we can. To only speak of Gods love pulls down Gods love. To talk of Gods love as it sets beside mans sin..shows just how great it is.
What is a lost man?
A lost man is.... not able to understand the gifts of the Spirit of God, is not spiritually discerning, nor can he receive His Spirit of truth, nor can he understand, or bear to hear His Word, nor does he know the Holy spirit. He is
hostile to God, and will not submit to God's law, indeed he CANNOT submit to Gods law.
He can not please God, nor is spiritually discerning, he is a slave of sin and His
imagination in his heart is evil, unclean, conceived in sin. He is as unclean as a dog, stupid as a sheep, cunning as a fox, cruelty as a bear, subtlety as a serpent, stubborn as a ass
His heart is evil, and madness is in his heart, being deceitful, desperately corrupt, impurity, dishonoring, exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and is
dishonorable, committing shameless acts, filled with all manner of wickedness, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, inventors of evil, disobedient,
foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. because their deeds were evil, He is of his father the devil, and mans will is to do your father's desires.
Mans Father the devil, was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Man is darkened in their understanding, dead because of sin, refuse to come to
God, Man follows the course of this world, follows the prince of the power of the air, has the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, and is called the children of wrath.
"Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood, in their paths are ruin and misery, and the
way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes, wickedness of man is great in the earth, every imagination of the thoughts of his heart is only evil continually, men loved darkness rather than light.
From his heart comes evil thought, adulters, fornications, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness his thoughts are vanity, vile, selfish, his mind is carnal and is enity against God, his tongue is unruly and evil and full of poison, His hands works are iniquity, his
eyes are blinded, his eyes are deaf. He is poor and needy in his heart and is undone.
He is under the power of sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one."
This is why man is said to be in total inability. This guy is LOST!! Is DEAD All of this you will find in the Bible if this is true and this is fully based on the bible as stated above..so it is true....what am i to make of the fact i can still choose?
A person who objects to man having no will based on simple reason that he seems to be able to do as he wills is right in doing so. Actually man can do many
things of his will. Man has a will that lets him choose regarding nonessential
things. We can decide where to shop, what car to buy, what to eat, where we go to school, what team to cheer for….other things
By contrast there are areas in which we do not have will. Our IQ will only let us go so high on the charts. We can not will to have a IQ of 160 if we only have a IQ of 100. IQ can not be moved sideways. If we have high intelligence in art
does not mean we can force our will to a high level in business.
The same is true in the spiritually things. What did Adam have before the fall? Well he did have freewill. This was lost after the fall.
We may see a picture of this if we imagine Adam was on the side of a steep pit. and when God made Adam He said..”Adam, do not jump into the pit. If you jump into the pit...you can not get back out of the pit.” as long as Adam stayed on the edge of the pit he had freewill to jump or not to jump. But once he decided to jump, Adam had lost his freewill to get back to the edge. He did not loss his full will. He could still jump high....but not high enough to save himself. He could run and jump too. He could cry and blame it on someone else, make a ladder to reach high, no matter what was done Adam works fell short. Adams will was bond so he could not reach God. This is Adam and all mankind. Lost from ever reaching God on our own. Some are mad in this pit...some are fooled into works, some live a life sinning Most do not even know they are lost. But all are sinners. All are lost None can reach God on their own.
For reasons no one knows...and by grace alone… God reached down.
This is Gods grace
In Christ…James
King James Bond
New Member
Jarthur001,
I agree with most every portion of your post as usually I do.
You posted this;
What did Adam have before the fall? Well he did have freewill. This was lost after the fall.
My question would be......"how do we know that Adam had free-will"?
We know he had options in front of him, but how do we know his will was free?
God created Adam. If God created a man but did not know what the man was going to do...would God be all knowing?
If God wanted a man that was perfect....could He not make one?
What if God made Adam knowing full well what He made before He made it? What if He knew from eternity past that "I will make a man and he will be designed by me to fall"?
Would there be something wrong with that way?
How do we know that God did not design Adam with a will that was predetermined by God to sin?
Just some thoughts.
God bless you! Regards, KJB
I agree with most every portion of your post as usually I do.
You posted this;
What did Adam have before the fall? Well he did have freewill. This was lost after the fall.
My question would be......"how do we know that Adam had free-will"?
We know he had options in front of him, but how do we know his will was free?
God created Adam. If God created a man but did not know what the man was going to do...would God be all knowing?
If God wanted a man that was perfect....could He not make one?
What if God made Adam knowing full well what He made before He made it? What if He knew from eternity past that "I will make a man and he will be designed by me to fall"?
Would there be something wrong with that way?
How do we know that God did not design Adam with a will that was predetermined by God to sin?
Just some thoughts.
God bless you! Regards, KJB
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hi ya king james bond,
My question would be......"how do we know that Adam had free-will"?
****************
I have no way to prove Adam did have freewill, its just a feeling i have based on the story. When God told Adam he would die that very day, that meant spiritually die. My feeling is that this meant more than lose of the benefits of the Garden but falling into a new spiritually nature of sinfulness thus "The Fall".
God created Adam. If God created a man but did not know what the man was going to do...would God be all knowing?
********************
Do not get me wrong. I do not dismiss the fact that God knew what would happen. I'm not sure this part of Him knowing would matter about Adam's Fall, do you?
If God wanted a man that was perfect....could He not make one?
*********************
I think man was perfect and even with a freewill to choose. After the fall man was bound with limits to his will.
What if God made Adam knowing full well what He made before He made it? What if He knew from eternity past that "I will make a man and he will be designed by me to fall"?
********************
No "what if" about it. He did know. And knew what would happen. Did he force Him to fall? I do not think so. My view of sin is leaving Gods will. This is where Calvinist gets a bad wrap. If God made man to sin, then this is in fact making man sin and MAKING SIN NATURE. Calvin did not teach this. Evil was not a choice by Satan. Not choosing God was the path away from God that made a evil path..or sin.
It sure looks as if Man was given free choice in the garden and did choose to take that path away from God and fell into sin himself.
How do we know that God did not design Adam with a will that was predetermined by God to sin?
*****************
He could have, for He is God, but i do not think is happen that way. This would be saying God made man sin. This is a view I do not hold to.
IN Christ..James
My question would be......"how do we know that Adam had free-will"?
****************
I have no way to prove Adam did have freewill, its just a feeling i have based on the story. When God told Adam he would die that very day, that meant spiritually die. My feeling is that this meant more than lose of the benefits of the Garden but falling into a new spiritually nature of sinfulness thus "The Fall".
God created Adam. If God created a man but did not know what the man was going to do...would God be all knowing?
********************
Do not get me wrong. I do not dismiss the fact that God knew what would happen. I'm not sure this part of Him knowing would matter about Adam's Fall, do you?
If God wanted a man that was perfect....could He not make one?
*********************
I think man was perfect and even with a freewill to choose. After the fall man was bound with limits to his will.
What if God made Adam knowing full well what He made before He made it? What if He knew from eternity past that "I will make a man and he will be designed by me to fall"?
********************
No "what if" about it. He did know. And knew what would happen. Did he force Him to fall? I do not think so. My view of sin is leaving Gods will. This is where Calvinist gets a bad wrap. If God made man to sin, then this is in fact making man sin and MAKING SIN NATURE. Calvin did not teach this. Evil was not a choice by Satan. Not choosing God was the path away from God that made a evil path..or sin.
It sure looks as if Man was given free choice in the garden and did choose to take that path away from God and fell into sin himself.
How do we know that God did not design Adam with a will that was predetermined by God to sin?
*****************
He could have, for He is God, but i do not think is happen that way. This would be saying God made man sin. This is a view I do not hold to.
IN Christ..James
Jarthur001
Active Member
Oh yes..one more thing.
"And God said it was Good."
This is my proof that man was made just right.
In Christ..James
"And God said it was Good."
This is my proof that man was made just right.
In Christ..James
Timtoolman
New Member
How do we know that God did not design Adam with a will that was predetermined by God to sin?
You two make my head hurt!
You two make my head hurt!
Jarthur001
Active Member
How do we know that God did not design Adam with a will that was predetermined by God to sin?
*****************
I know I said only one more thing...but...
Predestined (if this is what you mean) is talking of a place not an action. Election comes 1st. After election we have a "destiny known" to us....or predestined.
OR.....
Election is the choice..
Predestined is the place..
Like buying a ticket to Boston...when we get on the plan we know it will land in Boston. Only..God is flying our plane..and there is no crashes...and the ticket is free.
Predestiny is only talked of with the elect in mind.
Read John Piper on this...
In Christ..James
*****************
I know I said only one more thing...but...
Predestined (if this is what you mean) is talking of a place not an action. Election comes 1st. After election we have a "destiny known" to us....or predestined.
OR.....
Election is the choice..
Predestined is the place..
Like buying a ticket to Boston...when we get on the plan we know it will land in Boston. Only..God is flying our plane..and there is no crashes...and the ticket is free.
Predestiny is only talked of with the elect in mind.
Read John Piper on this...
In Christ..James
King James Bond
New Member
Hello Jarthur001 and Timtoolman,
My head hurts too! LOL
When God was done with His creation He said it was good.
That does not mean it was without the predestined plan of God to fall.
The good would mean that as He saw what He had done He was pleased with it all.
I can't for the life of me see how God could have made man without knowing the exact and predetermined course this man (His creation) would take.
Who designed the man? Who built the guy? He was not made by man nor Satan. It was God that made him.
I would in a sense say God is the ultimate author of sin. This does not mean sin is in God, nor that God sins.
This means that God not only allowed and permitted sin.....but decreed by His majestic will that sin was to exist in and about His creation.
I say that creation was designed by Him to fall purposely. It was no suprise or accident to Him but was all laid out before He made it all.
Now don't get me wrong here. I am in no way saying God is evil nor a sinner. And it does not mean God loves sin.
I am using the word "predetermined" saying that God had predetermined not only the fall of men, but also the salvation of men before He created anything at all.
I am saying that there exists no second plan.
There is and was no suprise in God's plan of things as He see's them.
Everything is going as planned in plan "A" and there will not be a plan "B".
Satan is not some sort of Frankenstein movie creature that suprised God by revolting and is all out of control.
Satan was designed and created by God for a specific purpose that God knows about from eternity past to eternity future.
Satan is also not some sort of self sustaining creature. He only exists because God sustains him. He is a created being and can be snuffed out at any time by God.
Ponder on it.....
God bless. Regards, KJB
My head hurts too! LOL
When God was done with His creation He said it was good.
That does not mean it was without the predestined plan of God to fall.
The good would mean that as He saw what He had done He was pleased with it all.
I can't for the life of me see how God could have made man without knowing the exact and predetermined course this man (His creation) would take.
Who designed the man? Who built the guy? He was not made by man nor Satan. It was God that made him.
I would in a sense say God is the ultimate author of sin. This does not mean sin is in God, nor that God sins.
This means that God not only allowed and permitted sin.....but decreed by His majestic will that sin was to exist in and about His creation.
I say that creation was designed by Him to fall purposely. It was no suprise or accident to Him but was all laid out before He made it all.
Now don't get me wrong here. I am in no way saying God is evil nor a sinner. And it does not mean God loves sin.
I am using the word "predetermined" saying that God had predetermined not only the fall of men, but also the salvation of men before He created anything at all.
I am saying that there exists no second plan.
There is and was no suprise in God's plan of things as He see's them.
Everything is going as planned in plan "A" and there will not be a plan "B".
Satan is not some sort of Frankenstein movie creature that suprised God by revolting and is all out of control.
Satan was designed and created by God for a specific purpose that God knows about from eternity past to eternity future.
Satan is also not some sort of self sustaining creature. He only exists because God sustains him. He is a created being and can be snuffed out at any time by God.
Ponder on it.....
God bless. Regards, KJB
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hi ya webdog,
I understand your debate and logic in full, i just do not hold to this. I do not believe my view makes Gods sovereignty any less then great.
Again, I think this goes with your understanding of what sin is. You say God made sin and you hold to this based on how you understand sin to be. Not that everyone must believe what Calvin teaches, but I want to again point out this is not in the scope of John Calvins writings. He held to the same views of Augustine of Hippo.
Augustine said there was not sin but rather a choice to not follow God which made a path away from God. This comes from understanding what sin is. Sin is not as much a act but rather a path. The full battle in life is over our will or Gods will. Anytime we take our eyes off of God we follow other things rather than God.
The story of Peter walking on the water is in the Bible to show this picture. When Peter looks away from God he "falls"...a picture of falling into sin. Any sin that you or I are in, starts with a path away from God.
Sin means transgression unto God. This picture of Sin as a path makes it so that sin can never be a part of God. If sin is in His will or nature, then it is not a transgression. This is also in line with His holiness. The holiness of God sets apart God from sin. Sin is a path away from God.
So to use logic on this, If sin is a transgression and God is Holy, sin could not be next to God or even part of Him. In other words lets take one sin.
Lying
Lying is a sin. If God can make a lie or can make the lie principle with in His will, then to lie is not to transgress against God for it is within Gods will. Also if God were near to the lie principle, or even the thought of a lie it would not be unholy to lie, for God is set apart from the unholy.
So to say that God made Adam to sin and this was His will, would not make Adams sin a transgression unto God, for Adam would be within Gods will.
What we see in the garden is Adam with a choice to follow Gods will of not picking the apple…or follow mans will of picking the apple. Adam chooses the apple. Adam pick the path away from God.
Now that is how I see it. I understand your view and I know others hold to this. I just do not.
In Christ…James
I understand your debate and logic in full, i just do not hold to this. I do not believe my view makes Gods sovereignty any less then great.
Again, I think this goes with your understanding of what sin is. You say God made sin and you hold to this based on how you understand sin to be. Not that everyone must believe what Calvin teaches, but I want to again point out this is not in the scope of John Calvins writings. He held to the same views of Augustine of Hippo.
Augustine said there was not sin but rather a choice to not follow God which made a path away from God. This comes from understanding what sin is. Sin is not as much a act but rather a path. The full battle in life is over our will or Gods will. Anytime we take our eyes off of God we follow other things rather than God.
The story of Peter walking on the water is in the Bible to show this picture. When Peter looks away from God he "falls"...a picture of falling into sin. Any sin that you or I are in, starts with a path away from God.
Sin means transgression unto God. This picture of Sin as a path makes it so that sin can never be a part of God. If sin is in His will or nature, then it is not a transgression. This is also in line with His holiness. The holiness of God sets apart God from sin. Sin is a path away from God.
So to use logic on this, If sin is a transgression and God is Holy, sin could not be next to God or even part of Him. In other words lets take one sin.
Lying
Lying is a sin. If God can make a lie or can make the lie principle with in His will, then to lie is not to transgress against God for it is within Gods will. Also if God were near to the lie principle, or even the thought of a lie it would not be unholy to lie, for God is set apart from the unholy.
So to say that God made Adam to sin and this was His will, would not make Adams sin a transgression unto God, for Adam would be within Gods will.
What we see in the garden is Adam with a choice to follow Gods will of not picking the apple…or follow mans will of picking the apple. Adam chooses the apple. Adam pick the path away from God.
Now that is how I see it. I understand your view and I know others hold to this. I just do not.
In Christ…James
Jarthur001
Active Member
oops. sorry about the post above.
I have no idea why i said "webdog"...i meant KJB
my bad
I have no idea why i said "webdog"...i meant KJB
my bad