Hi ya KJB..
below is some of the text from the link.. and my thoughts
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Is God Less Glorious Because He Ordained that Evil Be?
Jonathan Edwards on the Decrees of God
The Jonathan Edwards Institute
Evangelicals Seeking the Glory of God
July, 1998
Charles Colson wrote, "The western church - much of it drifting, enculturated, and infected with cheap grace - desperately needs to hear Edwards' challenge. . . .
****** Amen to this
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The disappearance of Edwards's perspective in American Christian history has been a tragedy.
****** Again..Amen
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For them, now God is sovereign, and now he is not. Now he is in control, and now he is not. Now he is good and reliable when things are going well, and when they go bad, well, maybe he's not. Now he's the supreme authority of the universe, and now he is in the dock with human prosecutors peppering him with demands that he give an account of himself.
******** Good wording..and very true
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But when a person settles it Biblically, intellectually and emotionally, that God has ultimate control of all things, including evil, and that this is gracious and precious beyond words, then a marvelous stability and depth come into that person's life and they develop a "God-entranced world view."
********* Evil. At this point we need to ask what is this evil? Evil as we have talked about on this tread is sin. Evil can also be used in place of the word “bad”. Bad is not always sin. This is not wrong to replace the word sin for bad, but bad is a much broader meaning then just sin, so in the case evil must be look at in the same broader meaning.
A bad or evil rainstorm is not sin..But could be used by God as a punishment for sin. With this bad storm death can come which is also bad. Life has “bad” moments. Life is unfair at times. Why does bad things happen to Good people? In this regard God is in full control and can indeed cause the bad for many reason. One is for punishment as I have stated above.
Also God MAKES BAD things come into our life, not to sin, but it is for making us stronger and to grow.
I post verses from romans, john and Hebrews more than any other books in the Bible on this forum. However, my favorite book in the bible is Ecclesiastes. If I could be blessed with only one willful event as a gift to the world, it would be this. To give each man, lady, teen and child a copy of Ecclesiastes and have placed in them the meaning of it fully. There would be no more need for “head doctors”. Most all pride would be gone. Lust would be out of here. Where would sin be without these 2 things?
Ecclesiastes is a very depressing book that takes every dream you have and crushes it. It makes you feel worthless and wounding what life is really about. There is no gospel message in Ecclesiastes. Many preachers try to push the gospel into the story. I think they are missing the point of the book.
Ecclesiastes shows us life, “under the sun”. Here on earth we have “wanting” and "longing" and end in death. The writer of Ecclesiastes even ask this..” would it not be better to not be dead”? This comes from what the Bible calls the smartest man to ever live.
Ecclesiastes records this mans lust and pride and even records that he finds both of these things in all areas he looks. Yet..it changes NOTHING. Life is still worthless
Bad things still happen.
Death still will come to the good person
Being wise only means fools will get the fruits of your wisdom.
Nothing changes……
The key to understanding Ecclesiastes is found in chapter 7
Ecclesiastes 7
1 A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death, than the day of birth.
*****death is better than birth? how can that be? Looking at death gives us reason to live
2 It is better to go to the house of mourning than to go to the house of feasting; for this is the end of all men, and the living will lay it to heart.
3 Sorrow is better than laughter, for by sadness of countenance the heart is made glad. 4 The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth. 5 It is better for a man to hear the rebuke of the wise than to hear the song of fools.
*********************** this is the reason why I bring Ecclesiastes up in this reply. Bad things WILL make is better…and is placed in our life for this reason. I said there is no gospel message in the book. Well..there is not, but you can read between the lines and find it. “the heart of the wise is in the house of morning”. When we go though tough times we should always learn. Look back in you life and see where you grow the most. I would say it was when you had a rough time. Good times bring very little growth. Do we like going though those rough times? No..but would you change any thing? I mean...maybe is this was a love one you would like to have them back. But what i'm asking..the pain you went though..even if it was rough and killed you soul and made you cry each day and night. on the other side..what God tought you...would you change anything other then having your love one back? That pain brought better understanding. You now see life better than before. The pain was GOOD for you...but it was hard to live though.
What is the greatest sorrow? I would say death. In reading between the lines we can then say…when you look at death..and know that someday death will come our way..this is when we should be wise..and get ready to die. This is when we can begin to REALLY live..after looking at death.
So..this is a long way to answer this, but bad things happen to good people..and its for their own good.
Now..also we must address this. In the fall sin brought death. Death to mans body. Death to all creation. Entropy…is that what it is called? I forget the word. This should be viewed as Gods punishment for sin.
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1. Evidence of God's Control
First, then, consider the evidence that God controls all things, including evil. When I speak of evil, I have two kinds in mind, natural and moral. Natural evil we usually refer to as calamities: hurricanes, floods, disease, all the natural ways that death and misery strike without human cause. Moral evil we usually refer to as sin: murder, lying, adultery, stealing, all the ways that people fail to love each other. So what we are considering here is that God rules the world in such a way that all calamities and all sin remain in his ultimate control and therefore within his ultimate design and purpose.
*************I would agree with this. This is not saying sin is forced by God. Nor is it saying God made Sin. It is saying God allows sin to be. Within Gods control paths of sin away from God are there.
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1.1 Evidence that God Controls Calamity
Life and death
Disease
Natural disasters
Destructive animals
All other kinds of calamities
********* I will not address this..for I agree. I just wish I had read this before typing my lines..It could have saved time. lol
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1.2 God's Control over Moral Evil
For example, all the choices of Joseph's brothers in getting rid of him and selling him into slavery are seen as sin and yet also as the outworking of God's good purpose. In Genesis 50:20, Joseph says to his brothers when they fear his vengeance, "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." Gregory Boyd and others, who do not believe that God has a purpose in the evil choices of people (especially since he does not know what those choices are going to be before they make them), try to say that God can use the choices that people make for his own purposes after they make them and he then knows what they are.
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I agree that God used sin to bring glory to Him. However this is not the same as saying God made Joseph's brothers sin.
James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; 14 but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
However there are many ways that show God using sins of the sinner in His own will. In this light I think God used the sins of Hitler to bring home the Jews to its nation. yet Hitler was not forced to sin.
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The death of Jesus offers another example of how God's sovereign will ordains that a sinful act come to pass.
********* again in this story..God used the sins of man to bring glory to Him, but did not make them sin. God KNEW they would, but this is not the same as making.
If you KNEW me very well…and you had tickets to 2 football games and one ticket was to see WVU play and the other ticket was to see Ohio St play…and you asked me to take my pick…if you KNEW me..you would know I would pick WVU over some buckeye game.
My nature is to love WVU…and you know that before the tickets are there. But I still have that choice to take Ohio St. Man is like this in sin nature. He has the free choice as an offer but it is not in his nature to pick the right choice.
You could go beyond this and use this for your own good. If you had a package that needed dropped off in the town the game is played..and you also had these tickets and could not go…you could think of me..LOVING WVU….and KNOW I would go…so your package would get there…because of my choice. Still the choice is my choice and you did not force me to take the tickets
God did not send Christ so others would sin. He sent Christ as a king of the Jews and the Jews did not want him, and put Him to death. Did God know this would happen? Yes. God knows of mans sin nature. But the choice of Christ as King of the Jews was real. Now God went on and used the sins to pay for the sins of all mankind in the death of Christ. Did God know Christ would die? Yes. Was this not part of God plan? Yes. But still the Jews had a real offer to them as a KING....the their sin nature would not let them pick God.
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Edwards answers, "If by 'the author of sin,' be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing . . . . it would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the author of sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin."
******** I agree
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But, he argues, willing that sin exist in the world is not the same as sinning. God does not commit sin in willing that there be sin. God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God's permission, but not by his "positive agency."
****** I agree
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God is, Edwards says, "the permitter . . . of sin; and at the same time, a disposer of the state of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy and most excellent ends and purposes, that sin, if it be permitted . . . will most certainly and infallibly follow."
******I agree
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Thus in one sense God wills that what he hates come to pass, as well as what he loves. Edwards says,
*******WOOOOOOO now. I disagree. This is a big jump. God does not will it…but knows it..and uses it to his glory
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God may hate a thing as it is in itself, and considered simply as evil, and yet . . . it may be his will it should come to pass, considering all consequences. . . . God doesn't will sin as sin or for the sake of anything evil; though it be his pleasure so to order things, that he permitting, sin will come to pass; for the sake of the great good that by his disposal shall be the consequence. His willing to order things so that evil should come to pass, for the sake of the contrary good, is no argument that he doesn't hate evil, as evil: and if so, then it is no reason why he may not reasonably forbid evil as evil, and punish it as such.
********** no way. I just do not see this at all. God knows about sin and knows sin will happen. And can use it to His glory. This is not the same as making sin as a plan of his will.
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This is a fundamental truth that helps explain some perplexing things in the Bible, namely, that God often expresses his will to be one way, and then acts to bring about another state of affairs. God opposes hatred toward his people, yet ordained that his people be hated in Egypt (Genesis 12:3; Psalm 105:25 - "He turned their hearts to hate his people."). He hardens Pharaoh's heart, but commands him to let his people go (Exodus 4:21; 5:1; 8:1). He makes plain that it is sin for David to take a military census of his people, but he ordains that he do it (2 Samuel 24:1; 24:10). He opposes adultery, but ordains that Absalom should lie with his father's wives (Exodus 20:14; 2 Samuel 12:11). He forbids rebellionand insubordination against the king, but ordained that Jeroboam and the ten tribes should rebel against Rehoboam (Romans 13:1; 1 Samuel 15:23; 1 Kings 12:15-16). He opposes murder, but ordains the murder of his Son (Exodus 20:13; Acts 4:28). He desires all men to be saved, but effectually calls only some (1 Timothy 2:4; 1 Corinthians 1:26-30; 2 Timothy 2:26).
*********** I do not know all of these verse…but the ones I do know are stating facts of man WILL sin..not that he forces them to sin. The will of man is the path away from God that is sin
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I'll look at the rest later. This is my 1st thoughts. I got to get some work done.
In Christ..James
