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For God so loved the world
- Thread starter King James Bond
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
It is after all "a translation".
But there are even better and even more obvious grounds for that point.
As Christ said "HATE your parents, brothers, sisters and members of your own household - and your own life"...
By comparison to the "LOVE" that you have for Christ.
The hate He speaks of is not the HATE of the one who "hates his brother and is guilty enough to go into hell fire".
It is not the 'hate' that is counter to "LOVE your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18.
The problem is that Calvinists latch on to something that appears to be useful to the teachings of Calvinism and then cling to a bad theology "no matter what" as they find the Bible does not support such a rendering (rending) of the text.
Interesting quote of Malachi 1 AFTER both Jacob and Esau were dead and the history of Rebellion was fully manifest in Esau's descendants (and referenced in that chapter). There we find Edom (descendants of Esau) called a “wicked nation” and JUST as the “Blessings and Curses” pronounced ON ISRAEL were true impartial “results” of obedience vs rebellion SO in this case – Edom chooses wickedness and calls down upon itself the curses – even from a Loving God.
The “reason:” Israel doubts God’s statement about “loving Jacob vs Esau” is that it is JACOB that is currenly held captive by the Persians at the time this statement is made through Malachi. In fact Israel REMAINS subjugated not only during the time of Persia BUT ALSO during the time of Greece and Rome – which means that “yes” EVEN in Paul’s day in the time of Romans 9 – Israel is STILL held captive by the Romans!!
“Hate” in this case refers to the “wicked nation” that chooses rebellion and invites that list of Curses. It is “hate” as “compared to something”. In the same way SAINTS are told to “HATE” their own families and their own lives as compared to their LOVE for God.
This is said at the same time that we see in Mark 7 – Christ UPHOLDING the commandment saying that we MUST honor our parents (upheld EVEN in Eph 6:1-3 believe it or not)
In fact Christ has just affirmed the Lev 19:18 law of Moses that we must LOVE our neighbor prior to making this statement about hating our family and our own life.
So clearly this command to “hate” is “by comparison to something” rather than the genuine hatred of Matt 5
Notice that not ONLY is genuine hatred forbidden – but even “anger” to be “angry with your brother”.
Would have worked MUCH better for Calvinism if that quote had come from something said before the twins were born, as if God has ALREADY decided to hate Esau arbitrarily (instead of not wishing for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance). But that is not the source of the quote.
Instead of quoting a pre-birth event for Esau in the book of Genesis - Paul is speaking of the case in Malachi regarding the DESCENDANTS of Esau and Jacob - EDOM and Israel. He shows who each of them has played out their own rebellion or obedience toward God - and then how that has translated into their history. Rather than a pre-birth condemnation of Esau - this is a post-Nation evaluation of the History of two nations in Malachi 1:1-5
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I am wrong to AGREE with those Calvinists that say (and I quote) "The Drawing of John 12:32 ENABLES the choice that TD DISABLES"???
I suppose from your POV - they are wrong.
But creating Lucifer SINLESS and in PERFECT harmony with God did not "guarantee" that he would not make a bad choice.
The same goes for the Angels and for Adam.
And now AFTER the fall -- the SAINTS themselves - still sin!!
Yet you claim they are "guaranteed" not to make a bad choice!!
Really??!
--------------------------
However the point remains - because whether you say that choice is ENABLED by the drawing of John 12 or you INSIST that choice is FORCED by John 12 - the point remains - they can make the choice.
The very thing Calvinists try to dodge here is that the Arminian claim to choice (through the DRAWING of John 12) is NOT POSSIBLE -- is being DENIED by Calvinists here that ADMIT that choice is VALID through John 12.
And that includes those that think choice is FORCED through John 12. Either way - DENYING that choice is even possible through John 12 is simply out of the question!
In Christ,
Bob
King James Bond
New Member
ascund,
You have a very hard time understanding what you are reading. I am sorry about that and hope the best for you.
If you look back and re-read my initial post on the topic you will see sentences such as;
Many people seem to have a hard time understanding that God can hate enough to reject people.
We all know God can love.
So many use "For God so loved the world" in an attempt to conclude that God loves all people exactly the same head to head and rejects none.
ascund, does God ever hate people enough to reject any people at all? Does He never reject any because He loves all people exactly the same?
You say it is about nations and not individuals......I say it is speaking about two people that were brothers......actually twins......and nations!
Those verses that you seem to say I take out of context are speaking about God's Sovereign Choice. You may ask choice of what? Read it all and find out.
The word "HATE" that is being used is telling about God being active in His total rejection.
Yes....if you wish to use the text in regard to an entire nation....by all means do so! All that proves is that more than one man is hated enough to be rejected by God!
I have loved you deeply," says the LORD.
But you retort, "Really? How have you loved us?" And the LORD replies, " I showed my love for you by loving your ancestor Jacob. Yet Esau was Jacob's brother, and I rejected Esau and devastated his hill country. I turned Esau's inheritance into a desert for jackals." And Esau's descendants in Edom may say, "We have been shattered, but we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may try to rebuild, but I will demolish them again! Their country will be known as `The Land of Wickedness,' and their people will be called `The People with Whom the LORD Is Forever Angry. ' When you see the destruction for yourselves, you will say, `Truly, the LORD's great power reaches far beyond our borders!' " (Mal:1)
Wow! Sure does not sound like a bunch of BLIND DENOMINATIONAL RHETORIC to me!
Sounds like God has it OUT for them regardless of what they do.
I would suggest you read this entire page and then see if you are on the same level of understanding.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=romans%209;&version=51;
I hope the best for you!
Regards, KJB
You have a very hard time understanding what you are reading. I am sorry about that and hope the best for you.
If you look back and re-read my initial post on the topic you will see sentences such as;
Many people seem to have a hard time understanding that God can hate enough to reject people.
We all know God can love.
So many use "For God so loved the world" in an attempt to conclude that God loves all people exactly the same head to head and rejects none.
ascund, does God ever hate people enough to reject any people at all? Does He never reject any because He loves all people exactly the same?
You say it is about nations and not individuals......I say it is speaking about two people that were brothers......actually twins......and nations!
Those verses that you seem to say I take out of context are speaking about God's Sovereign Choice. You may ask choice of what? Read it all and find out.
The word "HATE" that is being used is telling about God being active in His total rejection.
Yes....if you wish to use the text in regard to an entire nation....by all means do so! All that proves is that more than one man is hated enough to be rejected by God!
I have loved you deeply," says the LORD.
But you retort, "Really? How have you loved us?" And the LORD replies, " I showed my love for you by loving your ancestor Jacob. Yet Esau was Jacob's brother, and I rejected Esau and devastated his hill country. I turned Esau's inheritance into a desert for jackals." And Esau's descendants in Edom may say, "We have been shattered, but we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may try to rebuild, but I will demolish them again! Their country will be known as `The Land of Wickedness,' and their people will be called `The People with Whom the LORD Is Forever Angry. ' When you see the destruction for yourselves, you will say, `Truly, the LORD's great power reaches far beyond our borders!' " (Mal:1)
Wow! Sure does not sound like a bunch of BLIND DENOMINATIONAL RHETORIC to me!
Sounds like God has it OUT for them regardless of what they do.
I would suggest you read this entire page and then see if you are on the same level of understanding.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=romans%209;&version=51;
I hope the best for you!
Regards, KJB
Jarthur001
Active Member
Not really. notice that this hate is FOREVER...and also in chapter 3 i think it is...God says.."i change not".
Both are looked at as wicked and or evil in the book of Malachi. Israel he ask to repent and turn back to God..Edom he says he will always hate.
In Christ...James
Jarthur001
Active Member
Interesting quote of Malachi 1 AFTER both Jacob and Esau were dead and the history of Rebellion was fully manifest in Esau's descendants (and referenced in that chapter). There we find Edom (descendants of Esau) called a “wicked nation” and JUST as the “Blessings and Curses” pronounced ON ISRAEL were true impartial “results” of obedience vs rebellion SO in this case – Edom chooses wickedness and calls down upon itself the curses – even from a Loving God.
The “reason:” Israel doubts God’s statement about “loving Jacob vs Esau” is that it is JACOB that is currenly held captive by the Persians at the time this statement is made through Malachi. In fact Israel REMAINS subjugated not only during the time of Persia BUT ALSO during the time of Greece and Rome – which means that “yes” EVEN in Paul’s day in the time of Romans 9 – Israel is STILL held captive by the Romans!!
“Hate” in this case refers to the “wicked nation” that chooses rebellion and invites that list of Curses. It is “hate” as “compared to something”. In the same way SAINTS are told to “HATE” their own families and their own lives as compared to their LOVE for God.
[ [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]Bob,
You keep posting this over and over. This is just not true. I have told myself i would not get in the middle of this love/hate thing but you take things to far. The whole point of the book is to show that both are wicked nations and yet God loves Israel and wants her to repent. You will notice how in up lifting Gods judgement as you see in this book you in fact uplift Gods love. Notice verse 5 about how this gives God glory to judge. In looking at judgement...Israel should see the glory of the Lord and want His love. God is pure and wants Israel to turn from sin and be holy or he will judge them WHOM HE LOVES.
In the OT God never worked with other nations as far as blessings . Now in the NT Israel has been blinded. Is it fair that it is much harder for a jew to become saved then a greek for the last 2000 years? Yes..God can do as he wishes. God still loves Israel but is not working with her at this time...so that Israel will WANT his love back. According to this passage God will NEVER bless Edom and it has little to do with wickness, for Israel was wicked too, yet God loved her.
In Christ...James
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hi ya Bob,
I’ll give it a rest after this...but YOU post this same thing a lot. Have you ever read the passage?
Bob.....
*****************
Interesting quote of Malachi 1 AFTER both Jacob and Esau were dead and
the history of Rebellion was fully manifest in Esau's descendants (and
referenced in that chapter). There we find Edom (descendants of Esau)
called a “wicked nation” and JUST as the “Blessings and Curses”
pronounced ON ISRAEL were true impartial “results” of obedience vs
rebellion SO in this case – Edom chooses wickedness and calls down upon
itself the curses – even from a Loving God.
Malachi 1
1 The oracle of the word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi.
2 "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You
loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I
have loved Jacob;
James form here on out....
****************
WHAT IS A NATION??
Notice here a clear picking. "was not Esau Jacob's brother? Yes. So why did Israel get the blessings? Because I LOVED JACOB
3 but I have hated Esau,
*****************
How about the brother...I HATED ESAU
Was it really hate? Yes...and our Lord goes on to show this.
and I have made his mountains a desolation
**********
What was the point in this verse? Was it just the land or was it the people that lived in that land? Who was the "HIS" that lived in the mountains that God made desolate?...it was "people"
and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.
***************
Inheritance? Does this mean people too?
4 Though Edom says, "We have been beaten down,
***************
We? who is saying we? ...people maybe?
but we will return and build up the ruins";
***************
We? Is this people? What makes up a nation?
thus says the LORD of hosts, "They may build, but I will tear down;
***************
They?...the people... God will just tear down the works of this “people” AGAIN because of what? God has already made anywhere these "people" live desolate
....and now they move in and to build back their houses and citys and whatever they need as a "people"..and God says ok..i will tear them down again. Any reason why God would do this to a "people" other than hate?
and men will call them the wicked territory,
**************
men...other men and not the "people" that God does this to...but other men will look at the territory...or area in which they live and see the territory..not the "people"...as a wicked place to live.
and the people toward whom the LORD is indignant forever."
**************
notice this is still the "other" men looking in and calling these "people" as wicked.. toward whom the LORD is indignant..or
INDIGNANT
angered at something unjust or wrong; "an indignant denial"; "incensed at the judges' unfairness"; "a look of outraged disbelief"
The Lord is indignant to this "people"...FOREVER
Now i’m sure you can say that yes all nations are made up of people...what is the point? By just saying a nation we lose sight of the fact that it is people that God hates. The land was not hated, it was the people of that land.
This is the same as when others say..”God loves the sinner but hates the sin.” The sins are not placed in the lake of fire..the sinner is. Sins is a path away from God. This means you do not agree with God and are not a enemy of God. And PEOPLE are the ones that sin.
Not all calvinist believe as I do, but I feel that God 1st loves the world and the world turns away from Him and says no thanks to his love. At this point man is a enemy of God with the sin path and calls satan their father not God. They may not claim satan as their father, but they are going down the path that satan has laid and away from God.
God can and has choosen to elect some from the pits of sin and show them grace for he loves them. We see that God can show mercy to whomever is on this path that He wishes and can pass over others He he wishes. (Romans)
Now does twisting the meaning of Romans make it better? If it is not just a person as it says in romans, then now God does not hate a person but rather a whole "people". And this hate is...FOREVER...non changing....will always be.
Was this just for the wickness in this "people" or was it to show the love of Israel? Lets look at the next verse that you always stop at and then lets look at other verses in this book.
5Your own eyes shall see this and you shall say, The Lord is great and will be magnified over and beyond the border of Israel!
****************
This was done for the glory of God. You may say, but when God judges the wicked this does bring glory to God. Yes this is true. Why did he not do the same to Israel? He does Judge them, but ask they repent. Edom he says He will always hate. Lets read on and see if they are holy or just as wicked as the other "people".
6A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If then I am a Father, where is My honor? And if I am a Master, where is the [reverent] fear due Me? says the Lord of hosts to you, O priests, who despise My name. You say, How and in what way have we despised Your
name?
*************
God says to Israel...
A)you give me no honor...
B)you are not reverent to me in Godly fear.
C)the priests of Israel DESPISE Gods name
7By offering polluted food upon My altar. And you ask, How have we polluted it and profaned You? By thinking that the table of the Lord is contemptible and may be despised.
*************
D) They offer POLLUTED food
E) they PROFANED God
F) They act as if the the altar matters little
8When you [priests] offer blind [animals] for sacrifice, is it not evil? And when you offer the lame and the sick, is it not evil? Present such a thing [a blind or lame or sick animal] now to your governor [in payment of your taxes, and see what will happen]. Will he be pleased
with you? Or will he receive you graciously? says the Lord of hosts.
***************
G) you give me rejects as a sacrifice...is that really a scarifice?
H)you even offer those that are about ready to die...so as not to lose anything good......is that really a scarifice?
I) they are said to have “EVIL WAYS”...evil? could we also call this wicked?
9Now then, I [Malachi] beg [you priests], entreat God [earnestly] that He will be gracious to us. With such a gift from your hand [as a defective animal for sacrifice], will He accept it or show favor to any of you? says the Lord of hosts.
10Oh, that there were even one among you [whose duty it is to minister to Me] who would shut the doors, that you might not kindle fire on My altar to no purpose [an empty, futile, fruitless pretense]! I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord of hosts, nor will I accept an offering from your hand.
***************
J)..i have no pleasure in you!!!
K)..i will not accept your offering
11For from the rising of the sun to its setting My name shall be great among the nations, and in every place incense shall be offered to My name, and indeed a pure offering; for My name shall be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.
12But you [priests] profane it when [by your actions] you say, The table of the Lord is polluted, and the fruit of it, its food, is contemptible and may be despised.
13You say also, Behold, what a drudgery and weariness this is! And you have sniffed at it, says the Lord of hosts. And you have brought that which was [a]taken by violence, or the lame or the sick; this you
bring as an offering! Shall I accept this from your hand? says the Lord.
********************
L) This makes me weary..why? Israel I LOVE you. I picked you over ALL others even your brother...to bless. I gave you the ALL of Gods blessings...and you make a mock my table!! Do you not KNOW that you are doing this to the one that loves you. This indeed makes me weary.
14But cursed is the [cheating] deceiver who has a male in his flock and vows to offer it, yet sacrifices to the [sovereign] Lord a blemished or diseased thing! For I am a great King, says the Lord of hosts, and My name is terrible and to be [reverently] feared among the nations.
************
M)...God says those that "cheat" on a sacrifice is CURSED.
N)...Your blemished sacrifices bring no glory to God and does not lift Gods name high to be feared
Move to chapter 2..
8But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
***************
O) they departed from Gods way
P) they make others stumble
Q) they corrupted the covenant
9Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
******************
R) They were only partial under the law
10Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
*****************
S) Again the LORD pulls from the “father of one” as seen early in the book. Why do you deal treacherously with others in the family...when you know I love you and have a covenant that is now yours that I gave to your fathers, yet you profane this covenant.
11Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.
*******************
T) Judah dealt treacherously with others and Judah had the covenant
U) Israel, the one God loves is a abomination in her ways
V) Judah profanes Gods holiness
12The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.
13And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.
*****************
W) done again..."a second time" They KEEP ON SINNING.. Or, "the second time" means this: Your first sin was your blemished offerings to the Lord: now "again" is added your sin towards your wives (CALVIN).
covering . . . altar . . . with tears...shed by your unoffending wives, .. foreign wives.
CALVIN makes the "tears" to be those of all the people on perceiving their sacrifices to be sternly rejected by God.
14Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
***************
Wherefore...or WHY did God reject the sacrifices? They clamied...”we still have the wife of our youth..at lease we didn’t “put her away”
X) But they married outside the covenant. This goes back to the partly under Gods laws.
15And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
***************
Y)Their "violence" is the putting away of their wives; the "garment" with which they try to cover it is the plea of Moses' permission
17Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?
**************
Z)They mock and say..See..it does no good to serve the Lord...for the Lord does not judge evil, but delighteth in it.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
God wants Israel to repent for He loves her. The same is not said of Edom.
In Christ...James
I’ll give it a rest after this...but YOU post this same thing a lot. Have you ever read the passage?
Bob.....
*****************
Interesting quote of Malachi 1 AFTER both Jacob and Esau were dead and
the history of Rebellion was fully manifest in Esau's descendants (and
referenced in that chapter). There we find Edom (descendants of Esau)
called a “wicked nation” and JUST as the “Blessings and Curses”
pronounced ON ISRAEL were true impartial “results” of obedience vs
rebellion SO in this case – Edom chooses wickedness and calls down upon
itself the curses – even from a Loving God.
Malachi 1
1 The oracle of the word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi.
2 "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You
loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I
have loved Jacob;
James form here on out....
****************
WHAT IS A NATION??
Notice here a clear picking. "was not Esau Jacob's brother? Yes. So why did Israel get the blessings? Because I LOVED JACOB
3 but I have hated Esau,
*****************
How about the brother...I HATED ESAU
Was it really hate? Yes...and our Lord goes on to show this.
and I have made his mountains a desolation
**********
What was the point in this verse? Was it just the land or was it the people that lived in that land? Who was the "HIS" that lived in the mountains that God made desolate?...it was "people"
and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.
***************
Inheritance? Does this mean people too?
4 Though Edom says, "We have been beaten down,
***************
We? who is saying we? ...people maybe?
but we will return and build up the ruins";
***************
We? Is this people? What makes up a nation?
thus says the LORD of hosts, "They may build, but I will tear down;
***************
They?...the people... God will just tear down the works of this “people” AGAIN because of what? God has already made anywhere these "people" live desolate
....and now they move in and to build back their houses and citys and whatever they need as a "people"..and God says ok..i will tear them down again. Any reason why God would do this to a "people" other than hate?
and men will call them the wicked territory,
**************
men...other men and not the "people" that God does this to...but other men will look at the territory...or area in which they live and see the territory..not the "people"...as a wicked place to live.
and the people toward whom the LORD is indignant forever."
**************
notice this is still the "other" men looking in and calling these "people" as wicked.. toward whom the LORD is indignant..or
INDIGNANT
angered at something unjust or wrong; "an indignant denial"; "incensed at the judges' unfairness"; "a look of outraged disbelief"
The Lord is indignant to this "people"...FOREVER
Now i’m sure you can say that yes all nations are made up of people...what is the point? By just saying a nation we lose sight of the fact that it is people that God hates. The land was not hated, it was the people of that land.
This is the same as when others say..”God loves the sinner but hates the sin.” The sins are not placed in the lake of fire..the sinner is. Sins is a path away from God. This means you do not agree with God and are not a enemy of God. And PEOPLE are the ones that sin.
Not all calvinist believe as I do, but I feel that God 1st loves the world and the world turns away from Him and says no thanks to his love. At this point man is a enemy of God with the sin path and calls satan their father not God. They may not claim satan as their father, but they are going down the path that satan has laid and away from God.
God can and has choosen to elect some from the pits of sin and show them grace for he loves them. We see that God can show mercy to whomever is on this path that He wishes and can pass over others He he wishes. (Romans)
Now does twisting the meaning of Romans make it better? If it is not just a person as it says in romans, then now God does not hate a person but rather a whole "people". And this hate is...FOREVER...non changing....will always be.
Was this just for the wickness in this "people" or was it to show the love of Israel? Lets look at the next verse that you always stop at and then lets look at other verses in this book.
5Your own eyes shall see this and you shall say, The Lord is great and will be magnified over and beyond the border of Israel!
****************
This was done for the glory of God. You may say, but when God judges the wicked this does bring glory to God. Yes this is true. Why did he not do the same to Israel? He does Judge them, but ask they repent. Edom he says He will always hate. Lets read on and see if they are holy or just as wicked as the other "people".
6A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If then I am a Father, where is My honor? And if I am a Master, where is the [reverent] fear due Me? says the Lord of hosts to you, O priests, who despise My name. You say, How and in what way have we despised Your
name?
*************
God says to Israel...
A)you give me no honor...
B)you are not reverent to me in Godly fear.
C)the priests of Israel DESPISE Gods name
7By offering polluted food upon My altar. And you ask, How have we polluted it and profaned You? By thinking that the table of the Lord is contemptible and may be despised.
*************
D) They offer POLLUTED food
E) they PROFANED God
F) They act as if the the altar matters little
8When you [priests] offer blind [animals] for sacrifice, is it not evil? And when you offer the lame and the sick, is it not evil? Present such a thing [a blind or lame or sick animal] now to your governor [in payment of your taxes, and see what will happen]. Will he be pleased
with you? Or will he receive you graciously? says the Lord of hosts.
***************
G) you give me rejects as a sacrifice...is that really a scarifice?
H)you even offer those that are about ready to die...so as not to lose anything good......is that really a scarifice?
I) they are said to have “EVIL WAYS”...evil? could we also call this wicked?
9Now then, I [Malachi] beg [you priests], entreat God [earnestly] that He will be gracious to us. With such a gift from your hand [as a defective animal for sacrifice], will He accept it or show favor to any of you? says the Lord of hosts.
10Oh, that there were even one among you [whose duty it is to minister to Me] who would shut the doors, that you might not kindle fire on My altar to no purpose [an empty, futile, fruitless pretense]! I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord of hosts, nor will I accept an offering from your hand.
***************
J)..i have no pleasure in you!!!
K)..i will not accept your offering
11For from the rising of the sun to its setting My name shall be great among the nations, and in every place incense shall be offered to My name, and indeed a pure offering; for My name shall be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.
12But you [priests] profane it when [by your actions] you say, The table of the Lord is polluted, and the fruit of it, its food, is contemptible and may be despised.
13You say also, Behold, what a drudgery and weariness this is! And you have sniffed at it, says the Lord of hosts. And you have brought that which was [a]taken by violence, or the lame or the sick; this you
bring as an offering! Shall I accept this from your hand? says the Lord.
********************
L) This makes me weary..why? Israel I LOVE you. I picked you over ALL others even your brother...to bless. I gave you the ALL of Gods blessings...and you make a mock my table!! Do you not KNOW that you are doing this to the one that loves you. This indeed makes me weary.
14But cursed is the [cheating] deceiver who has a male in his flock and vows to offer it, yet sacrifices to the [sovereign] Lord a blemished or diseased thing! For I am a great King, says the Lord of hosts, and My name is terrible and to be [reverently] feared among the nations.
************
M)...God says those that "cheat" on a sacrifice is CURSED.
N)...Your blemished sacrifices bring no glory to God and does not lift Gods name high to be feared
Move to chapter 2..
8But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
***************
O) they departed from Gods way
P) they make others stumble
Q) they corrupted the covenant
9Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
******************
R) They were only partial under the law
10Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
*****************
S) Again the LORD pulls from the “father of one” as seen early in the book. Why do you deal treacherously with others in the family...when you know I love you and have a covenant that is now yours that I gave to your fathers, yet you profane this covenant.
11Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.
*******************
T) Judah dealt treacherously with others and Judah had the covenant
U) Israel, the one God loves is a abomination in her ways
V) Judah profanes Gods holiness
12The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.
13And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.
*****************
W) done again..."a second time" They KEEP ON SINNING.. Or, "the second time" means this: Your first sin was your blemished offerings to the Lord: now "again" is added your sin towards your wives (CALVIN).
covering . . . altar . . . with tears...shed by your unoffending wives, .. foreign wives.
CALVIN makes the "tears" to be those of all the people on perceiving their sacrifices to be sternly rejected by God.
14Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
***************
Wherefore...or WHY did God reject the sacrifices? They clamied...”we still have the wife of our youth..at lease we didn’t “put her away”
X) But they married outside the covenant. This goes back to the partly under Gods laws.
15And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
***************
Y)Their "violence" is the putting away of their wives; the "garment" with which they try to cover it is the plea of Moses' permission
17Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?
**************
Z)They mock and say..See..it does no good to serve the Lord...for the Lord does not judge evil, but delighteth in it.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
God wants Israel to repent for He loves her. The same is not said of Edom.
In Christ...James
this is a post-Nation evaluation of the History of two nations in Malachi 1:1-5
Again this does nothing to the thread of Paul's argument concerning Rom 9.1-5. Not all Israel is Israel. You fail miserably by missing Paul's main argument. It is not national history or privileges that have anything to do with Paul's argument. It is not national (who you are) and it is not factual (what you do) it is God who purposes (9.11). Stand back and look at the point of the argument. You haven't given any exegesis for Rom 9:1-5 at all, nor an exegesis on the parallelism of 9.7-8 as they refer directly to 9.6b!
Again this does nothing to the thread of Paul's argument concerning Rom 9.1-5. Not all Israel is Israel. You fail miserably by missing Paul's main argument. It is not national history or privileges that have anything to do with Paul's argument. It is not national (who you are) and it is not factual (what you do) it is God who purposes (9.11). Stand back and look at the point of the argument. You haven't given any exegesis for Rom 9:1-5 at all, nor an exegesis on the parallelism of 9.7-8 as they refer directly to 9.6b!
Jarthur001
Active Member
I agree RC. Its about Gods ability to do as he pleases.
I think Bobs way of changing this into a "nation" does not help his case, but rather makes his problem larger. Bobs rejection of God choosing one man over another causes him to force this man into a nation. A nation is MANY men, women, and children. Now Bob has many rejected and not just one man.
Pauls point is that God has the ability to chose one man, or one nation...or anybody, If he wishes and he also has the right and power to pass over others.
In Christ..james
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
So we should toss exegesis of Malachi 1 (the text BEING QUOTED) out the window and "pretend" that the Calvinist way of eisegeting Romans 9 is the "only option"???
Why do I not find that recommendation "compelling"??
(The more interesting question might be -- Why do I not find it "surprising")
We have Calvinists on this very board MISQUOTING Romans 9 claiming that while Esau was an infant (or before he was born) God declared his hatred for Esau.
Nothing could be further from the truth - yet that mangled eisgesis of the chapter is exactly what the Calvinist arguments on this chapter have lead to on the part of THEIR OWN members!!
(Is there no limit??!!)
Ok --
Once more --
Romans 9
Solicitude for Israel
1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
[/quote]
(Calvinist arguments seem to hope that Paul will soon learn in a minute that God does not actually care for those that are not coming to Christ and neither should he ).
By contrast we see Paul with genuine concern for the lost, the unbelieving, the “wicked” EVEN among God’s CHOSEN people! Why? – Because Paul has been given “The mind of Christ” (1Cor 2) and “walks as Christ walked” (1John 2) with the result that he LOVES as Christ loved “even his enemies” thus showing himself to be a child of the Father (Matt 5) for “God IS LOVE” 1John 4.
It is the heart of God that calls out to all “COME unto ME ALL who are weary “!! It is God that is “NOT willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance” 2Peter 3. It is God that gives his people the “Ministry of reconciliation begging the lost to be reconciled to God” 2Cor 5.
This is not some “fluke” or some “bad trait” of Paul that he will “soon get over” as he learns just how fickle and arbitrary, partial and “unloving” God “really is”!!
In vs 4 and 5 we see the clear distinct explicit and obvious reference to the literal NATION of Israel and their literal national history.
(Here Calvinism seems to hope that Paul will soon learn that God never actually does all that work for those He cares nothing for. Paul will need to pipe down on this point since it appears that God's sovereignly chosen "Holy Nation" and "Royal priesthood" idea did not work)
By contrast the Word of God shows Paul being consistent on this point about the NATION of Israel from Romans 3 to this very point.
KEY POINT: THE ONE TRUE Nation Church and the FOREVER promises
To Israel is given the Word of God – The Bible, Scripture.
Isaiah 59 tells us that they were given FOREVER promises of God’s teaching Word and His Holy Spirit.
What a fantastic thought that God would entrust to sinful, faulty man - "the ORACLES of GOD"!! He tells us He sovereignly ordained the Jewish church (the ONE TRUE Church established at Sinai) to perpetuate the teaching of His Word. He did this with FOREVER promises (just as in the case of the New Testament Church) - see
Isaiah 59 for an example of His forever Covenant with this ONE TRUE Hebrew church. A covenant about His Spirit and His Infallible Word.
That forever covenant was intended to setup the Hebrew church as a teaching NATION church - an evangelizing church (A royal priesthood and holy nation) - the same charter given the church of the New Testament 1 Pet 2:5, 9-10.
Notice that Paul considers the LITERAL earthly institution of the Hebrew nation church to be LITERALLY given the ORACLES OF GOD - even though they have fallen. No literal church today can claim exemption from the possibility of falling.
Paul BUILDS on his Chapter 2 thesis that contrasts those that REPENT and go to heaven with those that are merely "hearers of the law". His contrast of those that are judged in the future as SHOWING that the Law is written on their heart - vs those that rebel against God.
Paul seems to address the issue of whether or not “God is stuck with Israel” even if they fail – He must continue to use them or declare His promises a failure. OR is there another way?
In his argument he points out that “some did not believe” – he himself is a “believing Jew” as he points out in Phil 3. And so Paul points out that God SAVES at the “individual level” even though the MISSION of evangelism was given at the NATIONAL level.
(Really good save on Paul's part for the Arminian idea - but utter failure for Calvinists - Since Calvinist presume that there are no changes - God's sovereign predestined will is being unfolded in history right on schedule. No failures, [no changes to the arbitrary selection process of election. )
By this statement above - that would mean that spiritual Jews are the only ones God was EVER concerned about from the Start. By that logic then (since this still continues to be the case after the cross) then there would be NO CHANGE from the OT to NT system! The SAME principle would just CONTINUE!
Given the Calvinist model - this is simply THE system as given by God - "working as designed" so "no change needed" at the cross. (Unless of course Calvinists want to argue that God was designing the failure of his "Chosen" even though they are the "children of the promise" from day one)!!
So how does the Arminian view fare by comparison in this case? Very well indeed since The Arminian view anticipates/allows "changes" based on the failure of God's own elect/chosen/established church dues to free will. Adam and Eve - failed, and there was "a change" to what God had sovereignly started.
Then Israel (the Hebrew nation church sovereignly started by God) "failed" and there was "another change" whereby the NATION of Israel no longer has the MISSION of evangelism. That falls to the persecuted church of God under the NT model rather than the NATION church of God in the OT model. Yet it is the "faithful" - those that choose belief in God and faith in His promises that remain in all the systems.
(Really good example of foreknowledge here - but a real Calvinist problem since God willed Sarah to have a child and was apparently ALSO willing Sarah to laugh at God over it at the time. Obviously Sarah did NOT of her own free will choose such a thing in the model of Calvinism - since she never had free will to begin with (according to Calvin). At each turn so far - Calvinism is frustrated by the points highlighted.)
Good example of God knowing the future in terms of leadership. But this says “nothing” about hatred NOR about God not caring to save Esau “from before his birth” as some Calvinists would have it. Indeed it is not surprising to find Calvinist misquoting this as “God hated Esau before he was born”.
By contrast this IS an example of God’s choice determining the birthright – rather than man’s “custom”. The birthright could only be given to ONE – it is not an “impartial gift to ALL”. So while in Romans 2:11 we see that I SALVATION God is “impartial” yet in the birthright it is HIS choice of one OVER the other (in spite of culture and tradition that would say the older must be selected OVER the younger) is the rule that stands.
Although I am sure some Calvinists would point this out as God arbitrarily picking Jacob without any reference to the actual choices for obedience vs rebellion in the two men. However the text itself only deals with relationship between the two brothers - not good vs evil or love-vs-hate and NOT the Rom 2:11-13 issue of salvation.
The mother is told which Son will be dominant in terms of the birthright - which one will have the blessing. (In the end of course – Esau inherits EVERTYHING Isaac has)
Then Paul appeals to the REVEALED history of HOW the two nations related to each other (in Mal 1 where that HISTORY is being reviewed) and uses this a proof that the OLDER served the younger. This ONLY happened in NATIONAL history – as we see from Genesis that Esau NEVER submitted to ANY authority from Jacob. In fact Jacob feared Esau even as an adult and Jacob never got any of the material blessing or inheritance from Abraham OR Isaac – ALL of that went to Esau the PERSON.
What then is the hate quoted in Mal 1?? Are we allowed to “look at the text” and exegete it for its meaning? Yes!
Lets ask some basic questions – and “see the details” in the text of scripture.
(Next post for those who might care to see even more about the content of scripture in Romans 9)
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The mother is told which Son will be dominant in terms of the birthright - which one will have the blessing. (In the end of course – Esau inherits EVERTYHING Isaac has)
Then Paul appeals to the REVEALED history of HOW the two nations related to each other (in Mal 1 where that HISTORY is being reviewed) and uses this a proof that the OLDER served the younger. This ONLY happened in NATIONAL history – as we see from Genesis that Esau NEVER submitted to ANY authority from Jacob. In fact Jacob feared Esau even as an adult and Jacob never got any of the material blessing or inheritance from Abraham OR Isaac – ALL of that went to Esau the PERSON.
Lets ask some basic questions – and “see the details” in the text of scripture.
In the text is God referring to the national history of two nations or to the two infants “before they were born” as many Calvinists would have us believe?
As Christ said "HATE your parents, brothers, sisters and members of your own household - and your own life"...
By comparison to the "LOVE" that you have for Christ.
The hate He speaks of is not the HATE of the one who "hates his brother and is guilty enough to go into hell fire".
It is not the 'hate' that is counter to "LOVE your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18.
So also in the case of the quote of Malachi 1 that is found in Rom 9:13 –
Malachi 1 is a comment made AFTER both Jacob and Esau were dead and the history of Rebellion was fully manifest in Esau's descendants (and referenced in that chapter). There we find Edom (descendants of Esau) called a “wicked nation” and JUST as the “Blessings and Curses” pronounced ON ISRAEL were true impartial “results” of obedience vs rebellion SO in this case – Edom chooses wickedness and calls down upon itself the curses – even from a Loving God.
“Hate” in this case refers to the “wicked nation” that chooses rebellion and invites that list of Curses. It is “hate” as “compared to something”. In the same way SAINTS are told to “HATE” their own families and their own lives as compared to their LOVE for God.
In fact Christ has just affirmed the Lev 19:18 law of Moses that we must LOVE our neighbor prior to making this statement about hating our family and our own life.
Notice that not ONLY is genuine hatred forbidden – but even “anger” to be “angry with your brother”.
Instead of quoting a pre-birth event for Esau in the book of Genesis - Paul is speaking of the case in Malachi regarding the DESCENDANTS of Esau and Jacob - EDOM and Israel. He shows who each of them has played out their own rebellion or obedience toward God - and then how that has translated into their history. Rather than a pre-birth condemnation of Esau - this is a post-Nation evaluation of the History of two nations in Malachi 1:1-5
Paul appeals to the nature of the fact that God showed past-tense his actions toward the descendants of Esau who were in constant rebellion - and the descendants of Jacob.
The problem is that Calvinists latch on to something that appears to be useful to the teachings of Calvinism and then cling to a bad theology "no matter what" as they find the Bible does not support such a rendering (rending) of the text.
Then Paul appeals to the REVEALED history of HOW the two nations related to each other (in Mal 1 where that HISTORY is being reviewed) and uses this a proof that the OLDER served the younger. This ONLY happened in NATIONAL history – as we see from Genesis that Esau NEVER submitted to ANY authority from Jacob. In fact Jacob feared Esau even as an adult and Jacob never got any of the material blessing or inheritance from Abraham OR Isaac – ALL of that went to Esau the PERSON.
What then is the hate quoted in Mal 1?? Are we allowed to “look at the text” and exegete it for its meaning? Yes!
Lets ask some basic questions – and “see the details” in the text of scripture.
In the text is God referring to the national history of two nations or to the two infants “before they were born” as many Calvinists would have us believe?
As Christ said "HATE your parents, brothers, sisters and members of your own household - and your own life"...
By comparison to the "LOVE" that you have for Christ.
The hate He speaks of is not the HATE of the one who "hates his brother and is guilty enough to go into hell fire".
It is not the 'hate' that is counter to "LOVE your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18.
So also in the case of the quote of Malachi 1 that is found in Rom 9:13 –
Malachi 1 is a comment made AFTER both Jacob and Esau were dead and the history of Rebellion was fully manifest in Esau's descendants (and referenced in that chapter). There we find Edom (descendants of Esau) called a “wicked nation” and JUST as the “Blessings and Curses” pronounced ON ISRAEL were true impartial “results” of obedience vs rebellion SO in this case – Edom chooses wickedness and calls down upon itself the curses – even from a Loving God.
The “reason:” Israel doubts God’s statement about “loving Jacob vs Esau” is that it is JACOB that is currently held captive by the Persians at the time this statement is made through Malachi. In fact Israel REMAINS subjugated not only during the time of Persia BUT ALSO during the time of Greece and Rome – which means that “yes” EVEN in Paul’s day in the time of Romans 9 – Israel is STILL held captive by the Romans!!
“Hate” in this case refers to the “wicked nation” that chooses rebellion and invites that list of Curses. It is “hate” as “compared to something”. In the same way SAINTS are told to “HATE” their own families and their own lives as compared to their LOVE for God.
This is said at the same time that we see in Mark 7 – Christ UPHOLDING the commandment saying that we MUST honor our parents (upheld EVEN in Eph 6:1-3 believe it or not)
In fact Christ has just affirmed the Lev 19:18 law of Moses that we must LOVE our neighbor prior to making this statement about hating our family and our own life.
So clearly this command to “hate” is “by comparison to something” rather than the genuine hatred of Matt 5
Notice that not ONLY is genuine hatred forbidden – but even “anger” to be “angry with your brother”.
Would have worked MUCH better for Calvinism if that quote had come from something said before the twins were born, as if God has ALREADY decided to hate Esau arbitrarily (instead of not wishing for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance). But that is not the source of the quote.
Instead of quoting a pre-birth event for Esau in the book of Genesis - Paul is speaking of the case in Malachi regarding the DESCENDANTS of Esau and Jacob - EDOM and Israel. He shows who each of them has played out their own rebellion or obedience toward God - and then how that has translated into their history. Rather than a pre-birth condemnation of Esau - this is a post-Nation evaluation of the History of two nations in Malachi 1:1-5
Paul appeals to the nature of the fact that God showed past-tense his actions toward the descendants of Esau who were in constant rebellion - and the descendants of Jacob.
The problem is that Calvinists latch on to something that appears to be useful to the teachings of Calvinism and then cling to a bad theology "no matter what" as they find the Bible does not support such a rendering (rending) of the text.
Indeed – what “hate” is God teaching us here given that we must “LOVE our neighbor as ourselves” and we must “Honor parents”?? Calvinists would have us simply turn a blind eye to this NT definition and cling to the “Calvinist hope” that God really “hated” the infant Esau! And so as already noted some models of Calvinism clings to bad theology "no matter what" they find in the Bible.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Bob,
With as much respect as I can. You complain "no one reads my post". Frankly I stop reading most of them for they are the same post...over and over...word for word.
At least take the time to refresh your words. Give new angles or something. All those that agree with you have this down. Those that do not agree with you have said it was wrong many times over and proved it. You don't seem to be making much progess with these old post.
Just a idea
2nd..you once again stopped at verse 4. I posted on 2 chapters...and you still stick with only the same lines
In Christ..James
With as much respect as I can. You complain "no one reads my post". Frankly I stop reading most of them for they are the same post...over and over...word for word.
At least take the time to refresh your words. Give new angles or something. All those that agree with you have this down. Those that do not agree with you have said it was wrong many times over and proved it. You don't seem to be making much progess with these old post.
Just a idea
2nd..you once again stopped at verse 4. I posted on 2 chapters...and you still stick with only the same lines
In Christ..James
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
If you watch carefully you will note that when someone actually DOES address specific "details" IN my post -- with some argument that appears to have some merit -- I update my comments on Romans 9 to address the more detailed response "in terms of specific details IN the chapter" and points raised.
The "reason" it does not change much -- is because I seldom find anyone doing anything but "dodging the points raise". (far from a compelling response that "proves my points are wrong" in the details I have highlighted)
I stopped the quote in Malachi 1 with verse 4 "since" all the devastating details shown in vs 1-4 SHOW that it takes place LONG AFTER Jacob and Esau have died and that "the wicked nation" of Edom is being referenced.
I am not sure that anything substantive has been posted to undo the scriptures I have quoted - but I am open to suggestion/reference/"details".
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In case of the "repeated post" above I SHOW the term "HATE" used in the NT for PARENTS and family and "your own soul".
A devastating case for those who want to "really" promote "REAL hatred".
Since you have already said you do NOT want to join with those that deny that God in fact LOVES ALL (God so Loved the WORLD) this repeat-post should simply be pointing out "Details in scripture" that you are actually "in favor of".
How is it that you seem to be consistently opposing the posts supporting "God so Loved the WORLD" ??
A devastating case for those who want to "really" promote "REAL hatred".
Since you have already said you do NOT want to join with those that deny that God in fact LOVES ALL (God so Loved the WORLD) this repeat-post should simply be pointing out "Details in scripture" that you are actually "in favor of".
How is it that you seem to be consistently opposing the posts supporting "God so Loved the WORLD" ??
Jarthur001
Active Member
Bob,
Please take time to read my post again. I post over and over about Gods love. I think this the gosple message. Yet when someone post a verse about God hating..there are some that go crazy. I do not think this happens very much but to say God can not is changing the Word. I do not like to post as in taking up for the right of God to hate if he wants to. It just feels funny to do so. Yet time after time people CHANGE the Bible. I must take a stand. If you do not understand how God could after saying He is Love..do not stop Him form doing so. Just say..i do not understand.
In Christ..James.
BTW..i'll be on a lot less now. My work has picked up BIG TIME...which is good
Jarthur001
Active Member
If you watch carefully you will note that when someone actually DOES address specific "details" IN my post -- with some argument that appears to have some merit -- I update my comments on Romans 9 to address the more detailed response "in terms of specific details IN the chapter" and points raised.
The "reason" it does not change much -- is because I seldom find anyone doing anything but "dodging the points raise". (far from a compelling response that "proves my points are wrong" in the details I have highlighted)
I stopped the quote in Malachi 1 with verse 4 "since" all the devastating details shown in vs 1-4 SHOW that it takes place LONG AFTER Jacob and Esau have died and that "the wicked nation" of Edom is being referenced.
I am not sure that anything substantive has been posted to undo the scriptures I have quoted - but I am open to suggestion/reference/"details".
In Christ,
Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Bob,
I do not look for a reply on each of my post. But i have looked at more then the same few verse. I feel...maybe you do not...but i feel that the "forever statement should be addressed. I think the nation being more then one person...should be addressed. I feel that it is PEOPLE that makes up a nation..should be addressed
But..that is only my feelings
In Christ..James
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The point remains - the nations were judged based on their actual history and actual choices in history.
Just as the "blessings and the curses" Moses pointed out in Deut for Israel. Rebellion has "results". The result is shown in blessings vs curses.
The "hate" in this case is by contrast to "blessings" and is the same as in the sense of the "hate of parents" that the SAINTS are supposed to have (as ALREADY POINTED OUT).
The fact that these are "all people" changes nothing.
The "FOREVER" statements of Isaiah 59 for Israel pointing out God Spirit as being IN THEM and His teaching authorotative word being in their mouths - does not change the point I have raised that shows that PROPER EXEGESIS of Malachi 1 points to NATIONS.
I also pointed this transition of Nations and people IN ROMANS 9.
So as I have said repeatedly - if there is substantive responses to the "DETAILS" I have raised here I am happy to update and adjust - but so far I have not seen "the next round" of responses. Just complaints that the same "unnanswered" points keep getting posted.
In Christ,
Bob
Just as the "blessings and the curses" Moses pointed out in Deut for Israel. Rebellion has "results". The result is shown in blessings vs curses.
The "hate" in this case is by contrast to "blessings" and is the same as in the sense of the "hate of parents" that the SAINTS are supposed to have (as ALREADY POINTED OUT).
The fact that these are "all people" changes nothing.
The "FOREVER" statements of Isaiah 59 for Israel pointing out God Spirit as being IN THEM and His teaching authorotative word being in their mouths - does not change the point I have raised that shows that PROPER EXEGESIS of Malachi 1 points to NATIONS.
I also pointed this transition of Nations and people IN ROMANS 9.
So as I have said repeatedly - if there is substantive responses to the "DETAILS" I have raised here I am happy to update and adjust - but so far I have not seen "the next round" of responses. Just complaints that the same "unnanswered" points keep getting posted.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Mal 1:3 does not say "God hated Esau after his birth"
Mal 1:3 does not say "God hated Esau before he was born".
The text of Mal 1 deals with the nations of Israel vs Edom – Esau as vs 4 pointsout.
========================================
But if we go back to the “PERSONS” of Jacob and Esau – Esau received ALL the inheritance of Abraham and Isaac – Jacob got NONE!
In the following verses from this same chapter of Malachi 1 - God curses Israel the one “loved”.
So in "hating" Esau - God refused to let Israel go to war with Edom.
But the story gets worse on God’s "loving Israel" as they go AROUND Edom - God unleashes poisonous serpents on ISRAEL NOT Edom!
Mal 1:3 does not say "God hated Esau before he was born".
The text of Mal 1 deals with the nations of Israel vs Edom – Esau as vs 4 pointsout.
It is the NATIONS that are being addressed in the examples above under the names of their founding father.
========================================
Clearly God shows that His anger is against both Jacob and Esau – though He has judged Esau (Edom) now He is also displeased with Jacob (Israel) and will not listen to their worship. (In fact Israel is now a captive of Persia and will continue captivity under Greece and Rome – to be extinguished in 70Ad).
But if we go back to the “PERSONS” of Jacob and Esau – Esau received ALL the inheritance of Abraham and Isaac – Jacob got NONE!
In the following verses from this same chapter of Malachi 1 - God curses Israel the one “loved”.
Here we see the regard God had for Esau – through Esau’s descendants.
So in "hating" Esau - God refused to let Israel go to war with Edom.
But the story gets worse on God’s "loving Israel" as they go AROUND Edom - God unleashes poisonous serpents on ISRAEL NOT Edom!
The borders of Israel - STOPPED at Edom --
God refused to allow Israel to hate Edomites.
Yet often we find Calvinists wanting to justify “hate” by using Malachi 1 as an example of “hating the infant Esau”.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Mal 1:
3 but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."[/b]
4 Though Edom says, "We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins"; thus says the LORD of hosts, "They may build, but I will tear down; and men will call them the wicked territory, and the people toward whom the LORD is indignant forever."
**************************
4 Though Edom says, "We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins"; thus says the LORD of hosts, "They may build, but I will tear down; and men will call them the wicked territory, and the people toward whom the LORD is indignant forever."
************************
"They may build, but I will tear down; and men will call them the wicked territory, and the people toward whom the LORD is indignant forever."
**********************
and the people toward whom the LORD is indignant forever."
********************
whom the LORD is indignant forever."
********************
the LORD is indignant forever."
*******************
is indignant forever."
***************
indignant forever."
**************
forever."
**********
FOREVER
*********
FOREVER
*********
FOREVER