For God so loved the world

[BobRyan]

Hmm = several problems there.

#1. God says "man is ENSLAVED to sin" in Romans 6 and in Eph 2:1-5 the only "free will" aspect is that man in free will chooses to reject the REAL escape from sin offerred through Christ. Chooses NOT to the OPEN the door as Christ knocks. But being alone on the inside and NOT in union with Christ - lost humanity is "enslaved" to sin.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dan said
Have you ever committed a sin against your will? I haven't. I do not know of anyone who has.

I guess I should have included the "quotes" eh??

Eph 2
Eph 2
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ ( by grace you have been saved),

Rom 6
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,


13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Rather than this being described as "free will" it is clearly stated as "slavery".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by King James Bond:
webdog,

It may be easier to hold on to many things...even lies. I would hope that our minds are conformed to Scripture rather that the other way around.

KJB, James, it is much easier to hold to the doctrine that man is totally responsible for sin by free will, and is supported biblically in our choices made. One side says God is the author of sin which I believe to be heresy, the other says God sovereignly uses sin for His glory. I believe IN SPITE OF SIN, God uses man and sin for His glory.

Men are responsible not because they can free-will to be, or not to be sinners. Men are responsible simply because God has ALL power to make every man respond. They will have to respond and they will have NO free-choice in the matter. God will by His will simply CAUSE all men to respond.

For many that may be hard to understand.

God is responsible for all things that exist. There exists NOTHING at all unless God has been the ultimate cause of it to exist.

I have just used the word "responsible" in two ways. God will not be made to respond to men for any reason.

He is the ultimate cause of everything that comes to pass. Everything is planned and mapped out by Him since eternity past.

ALL things were made by Him and for Him.

God bless you! KJB

Hey King James Bond,


I am about to sound very Arminian..but even so i will go forward with my point.

If God forces sins..then he would also force my thinking on this Sin matter. If this is the case then there is no changing till God forces me to change, or maybe God just does not want me to believe this part even with God telling you to tell me that I should consider change.

Oh the other side, if God places all desires in our heart, maybe your desire to believe this is placed there by God for He does not want you to believe that which is right. What I'm saying is that with your way of thinking God could be making you think that your way of thinking about sin is right when really it is wrong, but God just wants you to believe wrongly.

I'm not trying to disharden you, or talk lightly of the subject. I'm just playing the logic all the way though.

Most Calvinist hold to a bound will, but this is in relationship to God. Most Calvinist also hold that the will is free to choose other things just that man will never seek God. This is the problem. Man wants his sins..and not God.

Brother..i do have to disagree with one other thing.
*******
you state above...

"Men are responsible not because they can free-will to be, or not to be sinners. Men are responsible simply because God has ALL power to make every man respond. They will have to respond and they will have NO free-choice in the matter."
********


I would simply state that man is guilty of sin because of his sin nature...EVEN IF HE DOES NOT SIN. This means God never has to force a sin on any one for guilt. That is why good people can go to hell from just doing good works...and bad people can be washed in the Blood and go to heaven. Even the believer sins. So sin is not the only problem.

This is why i hold to the 2 fold guilt of man and the 2 fold reconciliation. Atonement for the acts of sins...and redeemed from our sin nature is the best view of salvation.


Truly the best view is to see God in control with man given free choice. Yet mans will is bound my his sin nature and makes him blind where there is no understanding of God. Man can choose..but only chooses sin...or not God. Most all calvinist and most all Arminian believe this up to this point. Where they spit is ..."when does man believe?".

Arminiamism teaches mans sin nature can be removed by only hearing the word.

Calvinist say there must be a unblinding by the Holy Spirit after God elects to share 1st then understanding comes

But again..most up to this last point agree.

In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by BobRyan:



SEE how seldom "if ever" any Calvinist challenges his view (johnp) that God IS the author of sin!

I have posted many times my thoughts on the doctrine of sin. Everyone is free to read them. Right off the top of my head i would say close to 5 times i have went into great detail of my views and they are not that God is the author of sin.

i go with the man from hippo...

 

[King James Bond]

Jarthur,

I did not say God forced sin. I said God can and does put desires in the hearts of men.

God can and does use Satan for the purpose of God. Does He or doesn't He?

God sent Saul a tormenting spirit. What did Saul do?

Read on that and then comment.

Regards, KJB

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by King James Bond:
Jarthur,

I did not say God forced sin. I said God can and does put desires in the hearts of men.

God can and does use Satan for the purpose of God. Does He or doesn't He?

God sent Saul a tormenting spirit. What did Saul do?

Read on that and then comment.

Regards, KJB

Hi ya KJB,

I am sorry that i misunderstood you and quoted like wise. For some reason i thought you was saying God made men sin. My Bad..again sorry.

you have asked me to look at Saul. This follows below.

*******************
1st looking back into 1 samuel we see where the spirit of God overwhelmed saul when he had assumed the role of king.. Most think this spirit presence was in the gift of ruling the nation in wisdom, courage and just civil matters. Before this time saul was very shy and did not like the “public eye”.

Samuel 11……

Now Saul was coming from the field behind the oxen; and Saul said, "What ails the people, that they are weeping?" So they told him the tidings of the men of Jabesh. 6 And the spirit of God came mightily upon Saul when he heard these words, and his anger was greatly kindled. 7 He took a yoke of oxen, and cut them in pieces and sent them throughout all the territory of Israel by the hand of messengers, saying, "Whoever does not come out after Saul and Samuel, so shall it be done to his oxen!" Then the dread of the LORD fell upon the people, and they came out as one man.


For 20 years saul ruled as a great leader with the Spirit of the Lord up on him. Now move to chapter 16.



1 Samuel 16

1 The LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you grieve over Saul, seeing I have rejected him from being king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil, and go; I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite, for I have provided for myself a king among his sons." 2 And Samuel said, "How can I go? If Saul hears it, he will kill me." And the LORD said, "Take a heifer with you, and say, 'I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.' 3 And invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what you shall do; and you shall anoint for me him whom I name to you." 4 Samuel did what the LORD commanded, and came to Bethlehem. The elders of the city came to meet him trembling, and said, "Do you come peaceably?" 5 And he said, "Peaceably; I have come to sacrifice to the LORD; consecrate yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice." And he consecrated Jesse and his sons, and invited them to the sacrifice. 6 When they came, he looked on Eli'ab and thought, "Surely the LORD'S anointed is before him." 7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for the LORD sees not as man sees; man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart." 8 Then Jesse called Abin'adab, and made him pass before Samuel. And he said, "Neither has the LORD chosen this one." 9 Then Jesse made Shammah pass by. And he said, "Neither has the LORD chosen this one." 10 And Jesse made seven of his sons pass before Samuel. And Samuel said to Jesse, "The LORD has not chosen these." 11 And Samuel said to Jesse, "Are all your sons here?" And he said, "There remains yet the youngest, but behold, he is keeping the sheep." And Samuel said to Jesse, "Send and fetch him; for we will not sit down till he comes here." 12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and had beautiful eyes, and was handsome. And the LORD said, "Arise, anoint him; for this is he." 13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. 14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him. 15 And Saul's servants said to him, "Behold now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. 16 Let our lord now command your servants, who are before you, to seek out a man who is skilful in playing the lyre; and when the evil spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well." 17 So Saul said to his servants, "Provide for me a man who can play well, and bring him to me." 18 One of the young men answered, "Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skilful in playing, a man of valor, a man of war, prudent in speech, and a man of good presence; and the LORD is with him." 19 Therefore Saul sent messengers to Jesse, and said, "Send me David your son, who is with the sheep." 20 And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a skin of wine and a kid, and sent them by David his son to Saul. 21 And David came to Saul, and entered his service. And Saul loved him greatly, and he became his armor-bearer. 22 And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, "Let David remain in my service, for he has found favor in my sight." 23 And whenever the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand; so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.


You will notice that David was just CHOOSEN by God. Yes God can pick one person over another as He did in this story. Anyway..David was just choosen and then….”The spirit from God departed from saul”…and was replaced with a evil spirit. Notice also that everyone know of this evil spirit that paul had…and how this worked in Gods will to bring in david.

Now what was this spirit?

1) A feeling of depression from lose of the spirit that once helped him rule.
2) A evil demon that controlled him
3) A evil power of punishment from God.
4) A messenger, by analogy ('1 Kings.. 22 And the LORD said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, 'I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go forth and do so.')
5) (my pick) a spirit of discontent.

Whatever it was..music seemed to help this spirit as stated above.

One way or another, if Saul was really a believer …and I think he was..then it is very difficult to see him possessed by a demon.

In Christ…James

 

[King James Bond]

Jarthur,

Thanks for responding. Although I did not say in any of my posts that God did force people to sin, I am not excluding that He could do such a thing, even though I did not say it. LOL

Thinking about David brings me the thoughts of this statement;

Acts 13 says, “I have found David, son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.

Isn't it God that raises nations up and brings them down? Does He rely on the sins of men that may come about only by accidental chance in a system where God does not rely upon chance?

If God only has a crystal ball and can only see what will take place....how is He in control of all things? How does He rule if He has no power over sin and sinful men?

"He increaseth the nations, and destroyeth them; he enlargeth the nations, and straighteneth them again." Job 12:23

He hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation. Acts 17:26

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth : and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" Daniel 4:28-35

Even in the book of Rev we have proclamations about God having control over hearts;

"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled." Rev. 17:17.

These nations are being raised up by God to be against God. It's nothing less than God causing people to turn from Him (sin) just so He can bring them to ruin.

If all things are so precise and in His sovereign control, how could He only rely on sins of men coming about by chance to accomplish that which He certainly wills to certainly take place?

And if He has only the power to see from the past what would happen in the future.....but has no power to make cause in bringing the future to take place.....He only sees all things, but is not really in control of anything, powerless.

The Bible says that even unclean spirits obey Him. So why is it absurd to think that Saul or other people may not have an “evil spirit from the Lord”?

David was an adulterer for one thing. We should remember that God said He would cause a man to sleep with Davids wives. Sleeping with another mans wife is sin.

God sent a tormenting spirit to Saul. This spirit was not only a mere depression, it was a spirit that caused Saul to behave like a raving mad lunatic doing many sinful things. He threw spears at David trying to pin him. David was on the run for a long time because Saul was after his life.

Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house, while David was playing the harp with his hand, as usual; and a spear was in Saul's hand. And Saul hurled the spear for he thought, “I will pin David to the wall.

Saul tried to trap David with the enticement of his daughters and the opportunity to be his "son in law". Sauls entire plan was so David could be killed by the Philistines.

Saul was trying to kill David in sinister, covert, and underhanded ways.

Now I am not saying people have no sinful nature.

Adam was first, and his actions are PROOF that he had a sinful nature. There is no proof that he had free-will because ALL evidence shows that he sinned!

His nature was designed by God. It is obvious he was designed to be weak.

People will keep saying he had free-will just because he was told not to do something and he disobeyed.

That does not prove free-will. It only proves that Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Who built them? God did!

There is no person that can prove that what God made did anything other than EXACTLY what He designed it to do.

And even after Adams sin. God could have given all men free-will, but did He? I mean think about it. All people sin because they are sinners.

We are not sinners because we sin, but rather sin because we are sinners.

It is inherent in our nature. So where is the free-will? It does not exist.....people sin and NO man will be made right by keeping the law.

The more we know about the law, the more we should see our need of mercy.

God has determined that sin would be in the human race. If God did not will it to be.....He could have easily made a new man and woman and started over.

And why is it that you and I have an inherent nature of sin? Because God has decreed it to be so!

Is it your fault Adam sinned and a sinful nature was passed down from him to you? Who cares? The issue will not be solved by going around in circles trying to pin the blame on others.

You have a sinful nature that was caused by another. So in reality the heart of your forefathers is passed down and into you as well as everybody else.

Is it fair? Why did not God let you and every other man start afresh?

I say it is fair and no matter what God does it is fair....even if he causes people to sin.

Who will stop Him?

“Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.” Psalm 51:10

“Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.” Psalm 51:11-12

We can plead but in the end we are all in His hands and sovereign power.

The greatest and shortest prayer a man can ever say is simply "thankyou".

God bless and regards, KJB

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Dan said
Have you ever committed a sin against your will? I haven't. I do not know of anyone who has.

I guess I should have included the "quotes" eh??
</font>[/QUOTE]First off, Dan did not say that.

Second, why can't you answer the question? I do not deny that the lost are slaves to sin. You do not need to prove that.

Have you ever committed a sin against your will? I haven't. I do not know of anyone who has.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by King James Bond:


God sent a tormenting spirit to Saul. This spirit was not only a mere depression, it was a spirit that caused Saul to behave like a raving mad lunatic doing many sinful things. He threw spears at David trying to pin him. David was on the run for a long time because Saul was after his life.

Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house, while David was playing the harp with his hand, as usual; and a spear was in Saul's hand. And Saul hurled the spear for he thought, “I will pin David to the wall.

Saul tried to trap David with the enticement of his daughters and the opportunity to be his "son in law". Sauls entire plan was so David could be killed by the Philistines.
******************************
If this is the same spirit God placed in Saul as you say, then it really is not Saul that tried to "trap" David, but rather God...right? Again...if this was so..it was not Saul that trying to kill David, it was God..going with your doctrine.


Saul was trying to kill David in sinister, covert, and underhanded ways.
****************
Saul or God?

Now I am not saying people have no sinful nature.
****************
maybe not, but with God in control of their thoughts, then it is God that causes it...in your doctrine that is.

Adam was first, and his actions are PROOF that he had a sinful nature. There is no proof that he had free-will because ALL evidence shows that he sinned!
************
i thnk there is proof that he lost something in the fall other then just the benifits of the Garden. Death was more than just mans Body for it happen that very day. What did death mean? Adam died from what?

His nature was designed by God. It is obvious he was designed to be weak.
***************
that or designed to have a choice.

People will keep saying he had free-will just because he was told not to do something and he disobeyed.
****************
that is a good reason to say it..but not the only reason.

That does not prove free-will. It only proves that Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Who built them? God did!
*******************
You are right, that alone does not prove it. Nor does the fact God is in control prove God did not give man freewill in the garden

There is no person that can prove that what God made did anything other than EXACTLY what He designed it to do.
******************
I agree. Nor can anyone PROVE that freewill was not part of His plan in the garden.

And even after Adams sin. God could have given all men free-will, but did He? I mean think about it. All people sin because they are sinners.
****************
He could have given all mem freewill...but no the bible seems to teach other wise. all sinners are sinners without sinning. all sinners need not to sin to be guilty. They keep sinning and do not come to God because of this sin nanture

We are not sinners because we sin, but rather sin because we are sinners.
*******************
I Agree

It is inherent in our nature. So where is the free-will? It does not exist.....people sin and NO man will be made right by keeping the law.
********************
I agree...that is after the sin nature came. That is why they fall it "the fall"..man fell from his once HIGHER spiritual state into the state he has now...a sinful nature.

The more we know about the law, the more we should see our need of mercy.
***************
Amen to that..

God has determined that sin would be in the human race. If God did not will it to be.....He could have easily made a new man and woman and started over.
*******************
all i would change in this statement is...God knew that sin would be in the human race. the rest i would not change. When i say this..To you this shows a picture of God not in control. I do not see it that way. What is mercy? what is grace? Mercy and grace is "power under control". God has the power to judge us in our sins, yet in control choose not to do this, but gives us grace and mercy. Power is not just using ever source you have. God rules in mercy and grace, and this means he HOLDS back His power. This does not make God any less powerful. So to say Man was given freewill in the garden is not saying God was not in full control.

And why is it that you and I have an inherent nature of sin? Because God has decreed it to be so!
****************
You are partly right. It was God that past this sin nature to all of Mankind after the fall as part of the punishment of sin. Yet man was MADE PERFECT and with a freewill that was lost in the fall.

Is it your fault Adam sinned and a sinful nature was passed down from him to you? Who cares? The issue will not be solved by going around in circles trying to pin the blame on others.
*******************
Its not really my fault, but I am part of the guilt. I came from Adam and all men have the sin nature. No blame to pin on others. ALL CARRY THE GUILT.

You have a sinful nature that was caused by another. So in reality the heart of your forefathers is passed down and into you as well as everybody else.
********************
I agree

Is it fair? Why did not God let you and every other man start afresh?
***************
It is fair. God is more then fair. God could have ended the story when Adam sinned and that would have been it. But..in His Grace HE gave.

I say it is fair and no matter what God does it is fair....even if he causes people to sin.
********************
I agree that it is fair. I just say there is no proof that God cause men to sin. I can see where God would place more opportunities in ones life for sin other than others. Is that fair? All is fair with God. Still, God does not force them to sin.

Who will stop Him?
********************
If God desides to make man sin..no one could stop Him. But that does not mean He will.

“Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.” Psalm 51:10

“Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.” Psalm 51:11-12
*******************
Amen

We can plead but in the end we are all in His hands and sovereign power.
***************
Amen..but with your doctrine you have no idea if your right or not. With your doctrine it could be God is trying to fool you just as your doctrine says God was out to kill David.

The greatest and shortest prayer a man can ever say is simply "thankyou".
*********************
Amen

 

[King James Bond]

Whatever,

I am sorry I missed over your post. I have a hard time keeping up in these boards many times. My feeble mind is more feeble than I would like it to be! LOL

You posted;

The Calvinists that I know believe that man is totally responsible for sin by free will and that God uses man and sin for His glory. They do not believe that God is the author of sin. Since you are not Calvinist are you saying that you do believe that God is the author of sin?

I am a Calvinist. I understand all of mankind to be responsible for their sins because God says that all people will have to stand before Him. People will be held accountable for what they have done in their bodies.

This is why people are responsible. Because He will make them respond.....there simply exists no other options or choices even if people do not believe it.

People are responsible because they HAVE to respond!

People are sinners. There is no escape, free-willing, or free-choosing out of this dire situation!

People can choose all kinds of things because they have many choices sometimes......as for sin....I agree with your other posts that say people are "enslaved" to a sin nature.

People are willing sinners. They don't have to be forced.

Now the outward call of God is for people to turn to Jesus Christ for forgiveness. This is something that people just can't do on their own.

The sin nature will stand until we (the chosen) are in eternal glory. This does not mean that I am saying sin is ok or good.

I will say God is the ultimate cause of everything that exists. God designed and brought forth the entire universe and everything by His Word. This is real power and not some sort of "wind up the clock and sit back hoping everything works out".

God is involved with every aspect of His creatures in any way He wishes to be involved with them.

I agree with you when you say....EVERYTHING is somehow for God's glory! It really is!

Even though God made Satan, and uses Satan for everything that is evil, and then to destroy him...it is all for God's glory and is good!

God made him....so He can do as He wills with him.

As for Bob's post on God loving free-will....that is a lie!

Bob has not proven that there is such a thing and nor can he. It is delusional imagination and that is all!

The Father loves His Son.......not free-will.......and how much are people worth to Him? Nothing at all unless God gives them worth.

Christians are worth not a little...not a lot...not some sort of value decided by corrupt and sinful men....their worth is based on something of value.

It is nothing less than the most valuable thing we could be taught of.

We Christians are worth as much as the blood of our Savior Jesus Christ our Lord and King!

Sovereign ruler of everything!

There is nothing more valuable than Him!

God bless and regards, KJB

 

[King James Bond]

Jarthur,

I have read through your post. I will read through it more and more.

I would like you to read through your own post also again.

I only wish to remind you of one thing right now......God does not need any justification by humans.

He does not need to be justified for any actions of His at all. Everything He does is good!

He is good all the time no matter what he does.

You posted;

You are partly right. It was God that past this sin nature to all of Mankind after the fall as part of the punishment of sin. Yet man was MADE PERFECT and with a freewill that was lost in the fall.

I am not partly right. What God has created has been created by Him for His pleasure. Not creations pleasure.

Being made perfect does not mean men are perfect....it means God had done all that He intended to do "perfectly".

My point is that God has not given ALL men this opportunity to fall on their own.

Prove free-will. Prove it.

He does not give each person a brand new start and the chance to stand or fall on their own.

The point is people are designed as lesser than God and that is good for Him to do that.

God is God, I am man.

People thinking they can be as gods are not as god.

God need no stupid part of His creation to justify His actions.

I myself will accept good along with adversity and thank the one and only God of and over all things.

Will continue the dialogue later....thanks!

ALL people are guilty! It matters not how or where they can transfer the ultimate source of their guilt.


God bless you! KJB

 

[Jarthur001]

KJB,

It will come down to these things.

1)..what is sin?
2)..What did man lose in the fall of man?

I have fielded many things from you. I think your answer to these 2 questains will tell you the over all answer.


In Christ..james

 

[King James Bond]

Jarthur,

Ok thanks!

God bless you!

KJB

 

[BobRyan]

Have you ever committed a sin against your will? I haven't. I do not know of anyone who has.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I guess I should have included the "quotes" eh??

(From ROmans 6 SHOWING that we are enslaved to sin prior to being set FREE from that slavery via the Gospel)

Second, why can't you answer the question? I do not deny that the lost are slaves to sin. You do not need to prove that.

I agree that the SAVED sin out of their own free will.

I agree with Romans 6 -- that the will of the lost is enslaved to sin.

I agree with Gen 3 that God supernaturally places DISCORED between mankind and his own sinful nature (slavery to Satan) "I will place emnity between the see of the serpent and the see of the woman"

I agree with Clavinists that say that the DRAWING of GOD ENABLES choice.

I agree with scripture (John 12:32) that says that DRAWING is for "ALL".

Our "choice" as a lost person is whether to remain in slavery to sin and refuse to "open the door" where Christ stands knocking -- or to go ahead and OPEN the door.

Our choice as a saved person is as 1Cor 10 states "NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to mankind and God is faithful who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which you are able - but will with the temptation PROVIDE a way of escape that YOU may be able to endure it"

God "IS" Faithful - as it turns out.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[whatever]

I guess this means that you are not going to answer the question.

 

[rc]

I agree with Calvinists that say that the DRAWING of GOD ENABLES choice.

Your wrong Bob. The drawing guarantees the choice. The "Him" is the same as the "him" that are lifted up. Those He draws He also lifts up.

If you are not lifted up, you weren't drawn. John 12 you read out of context. He was speaking to Jews with GREEKS in their presence. ALL means Jews and Greeks, not every person in the world.

"I will place enmity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman"

Again this is a horrible understanding of this text. Come on Bob... "The seed of the woman"? What woman has a seed by herself? This has ALWAYS been the sign of the virgin birth and is a symbol of the Messiah not man... I think an apology is warranted for such a careless use of Holy Scripture.

Our "choice" as a lost person is whether to remain in slavery to sin and refuse to "open the door" where Christ stands knocking

Again Christ was knocking at the door.... OF THE CHURCH !! Of believers! Not to unregenerate sinners. BAD analogy and use of scripture.

Our choice as a saved person is as 1Cor 10 states "NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to mankind and God is faithful who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which you are able - but will with the temptation PROVIDE a way of escape that YOU may be able to endure it"

Great, I'm glad you believe in the perseverance of the Saints.

 

[Remnant]

Would all you learned folks mind if I step in with my simple thoughts for a quick jiffy....thanks eh

I feel I know the answer to the question I'm gonna ask and the answer may seem to have an obvious answer but has very large ramifications if applied completely and properly....

Both Christ and Paul were faced with the same question and each gave 'seemingly' different answers. If so...why?

Question:

Luke 18:18. And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Answer:

Luke 18:22. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

(I bet you never saw that on the ROMANS ROAD before

Acts 16 demonstrates Paul's doctrine:

30. And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31. And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


Now without getting into the issue of "household" what is everyones thoughts.

I trust no one thinks this too trivial. There is a method to the madness...trust me!

To all the Chosen in Christ. Remnant

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi ya Remnant....nice to meet you.

I'll give you my input.

In Luke I feel Christ was using a play on words. I’ll try to share this when I get to me point later. But 1st Lets look at the whole passage....

Luke 18

17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
************************
this shows that indeed we are talking about salvation.

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
**********************
Aww the key words and what Christ will later play on...”Good Master”


19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
***************************
Christ jumps on those words for He knew the mans heart. He knew that the person was “good”, but that he had another master. That master was money. So 1st...Christ was saying you call me good..why? God is only Good....and so in calling me Good you are calling me God. And as God..you need to listen to my next point..before you call me master.


20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
*************************
Yep...he’s a good guy


22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
************************
2nd You call me master...WHY? A master is more then just a word. If I am your master..and I am God..you need to WORSHIP me. Man can not serve 2 masters. You have another master..MONEY. Leave your money master..and follow me the Good Master if in fact I am as you say.

Now to acts 16...

    30And he brought them out [of the dungeon] and said, Men, what is it necessary for me to do that I may be saved?

    31And they answered, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ [give yourself up to Him, take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping] and you will be saved, [and this applies both to] you and your household as well.

I have to read between the lines here and wonder why you ask to look at these verses. The one in luke and this one in acts are talking about salvation, so it is my guess that you point would have something to do with salvation. In both cases salvation comes though faith in God. In both cases we must give up something. 1st..what do we give up?

The lost man does not see it this way but really there are only 2 paths. Gods way...or Mans way. Gods will...or mans will. In both cases one must give up his will to take on Gods will. This is worship.

Worship is not a singing time we have on Sunday mornings. Worship means God is my all in all...my life...all I do is around God. I do not see how a person can say they are saved and go for days without praying or Bible reading. Worship is ALL about GOD!

Its not about money and God. Its not about your job and God. Its not about sports and God. Its not about your kids and God. Its not about doing good and God. Its all about GOD!!

Do you talk of God in the same way you do football around the water cooler at work? We should. God has given us football, kids, ice cream and other great things to enjoy in life. But these fun things should never over take our love for God. God gives us our blessings and God can take them at any time. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

What are you known for?

What do you talk the most about?

Did you get up 2 hours early so to spend time with the Lord of your life?
In reading though John this morning were you late in getting dressed for you had not known that 2 hours went by so fast?
Do you long to get back to home to finish the last chapter of John?
Did you share the exciting words you found in His word with those at work...or just the game?

Worship is ALL about God. This will be your life...if you really put your trust in Him. The book of James is saying...SHOW ME YOUR LOVE. You say you have faith..i better see some action behind that faith. Where your heart is...your actions will be. The reason you talk about football is that you love football. The reason you show pictures of your kids..you love your kids. The reason you want rockyroad icecream for lunch is you love the taste. Does the world see more of these things then God? If so...you have another master in you life other than God. You need to give it up...and follow God.

These things are "good". But if they are in front of God they this is wrong. Sometimes "good things" hurt our walk with God....or even are in place of our salvation as it was in the rich young ruler.

So now i have to ask this.....

What is faith?


In Christ...James

[ August 17, 2005, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Jarthur001 ]

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by King James Bond:
He [GOD] does not love every person head to head and it can be proven. I dont need to prove God has hated millions or billions of people.

If I can show with Scripture that God has hated just one person, it is proof that "whole world" does not mean every person head to head.

The question that I would ask is this;

For what reason did God love Jacob and hate Esau?

It is because God chose to love one and not the other.

It is because God made a choice before they were even born.
it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

This shows that before they were born and had any time to do anything at all, good or bad.....God planned his favor.

BLIND DENOMINATIONAL RHETORIC! Context rules! Simple, easy-to-comprehend, context dictates that God was in the process of electing national Israel. He choose Jacob to continue toward the Promised Seed rather than Esau. This is NOT personal election.

It is the height of folly to take Israel's election and apply it to individuals.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.

BLIND DENOMINATIONAL RHETORIC. God was in the process of electing and redeeming national Israel.

It is the height of folly to take Israel's election and apply it to individuals.

I have proven that God hated Esau. The text spoke also of Pharoah.

NONSENSE. You've just proven you can't handle context.

The heart of election is JESUS CHRIST. Any other avenue, even a noble attempt to glorify God in the wrong way, is error.
Lloyd

 

[rc]

Though you haven't shown at all where election is for Christ and not people in one verse let alone ALL the verses for election. The HEART of the election is Christ but does not sweep away the purpose and reality that it is accomplished, that they are the elect and the reprobate.


Context rules! Simple, easy-to-comprehend, context dictates that God was in the process of electing national Israel


Yes context does rule. And you have a huge problem since you disregard the WHOLE point of the chapter with your eisegesis. You try to point out God was "choosing" nations yet you fail to understand "in context" of why Paul was making this argument to begin with.

Paul was writing to Romans. Here Paul is saying that the Jews, who had the covenants, the adoption, the promises, the worship and the Law.... and they ALL aren't saved? How are God's covenants of any use? Why should we trust God's word? If God gave promises to the NATION Israel and they aren't saved, how can we trust God to save us? We can't trust His Word can we?

What is Paul's reply...

Romans 9:6 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed . For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel This rules out nations but puts the argument to the individual. But yet even THIS is not the reason for the chapter. Paul says God's word in this does not fail, but on the contrary, God's expressed purpose remains firm (9:11c) The reason this situation does not mean the failure of God's word is that his purpose expressed in that word never has been to guarantee the salvation of every Israelite. It is an "electing purpose" by which God aims to preserve his complete freedom in determining who will be the beneficiaries of his SAVING promises, who will be the "Israel" within Israel (9:6b) It is therefore a purpose maintained by means of the predestination of individuals to their respective eternal destinies.

The interpretation which tries to restrict this predestination or unconditional election to nations rather than individuals or to historical tasks rather Thant eternal destinies must ignore or distort the problem posed in 9:1-5, the individualism of 9:6b, the vocabulary and logical structure of 9:6b - 8, and the implications of 9:14-23. The position is exegetically untenable.

Paul's solution to the problem of 9:1-5 is that "all those from Israel are not Israel" (9.6b) Within the context of Rom 9 this means that God maintains his sovereign PURPOSE of election by determining before they are born who will belong to the "saved" among Israel. And this determination is not based on what any man is or wills or does (9;11,12,16) but solely on God whose word or call effects what he purposes (9.12b) For this reason Paul is confident that God's word has not fallen but is in fact working out God's sovereign purpose even in the unbelief of Paul's kinsmen.

It is not nation's but individuals, look at the the parallels of Paul's argument in the verses.

The argument is 9.6 Not all Israel is Israel.

the NEGATIVE with 7a is linked with the negative in 8a and the POSITIVE in 7b with 8b.

The "that is" of 8a introduces Paul's clarification of what he argued in 6b-7. Verse 8 is not simply an interpretation of the Old Testament reference in 7b (as in Rom 10.6-8) but is a restatement and interpretation of ALL of 6b-7. The evidence for this is the way 8b corresponds to 7b, and 8a corresponds to 6b and 7a. The reason we know 8a corresponds not only to 7a but also to 6b is that the distinctive grammatical structure of 8a is identical to the structure of 6b (note the anterior negative particle and the redundant demonstrative pronoun.

The intended paralleling of "all those from Israel" with "the children of the flesh," and "these are not Israel" with "these are not children of God" is unmistakable.

Therefore whether Paul sees the election of Isaac 9.7b as the election of an individual to salvation or as the election of his posterity for a historical task, the PRINCIPLE of unconditional election is immediately APPLIED by Paul to the present concern, namely, who in reality does constitute the true spiritual "Israel" (9.6b), whose salvation is guaranteed by God's word?

The answer Paul gives in 9.8b is "the children of the promise are reckoned as seed." Besides the immediate context, three other texts in Paul (Gal 3.26-29; 4.21-31; Rom 2.25-29) offer valuable evidence fore interpreting this sentence. It is clear from the parallelism of "children of God" and "seed" in 9.8 that "seed" here (unlike 9.7a) refers to the same spiritual group within Israel as "children of God" in 9.8a and the second "Israel" of 9.6b. The sequence of thought in Gal 3.26-29 confirms this identification of "children of God" and "seed of Abraham". In Gal 3.26 Paul argues that "in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith" and concludes in 3.29, "and if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise." This text confirms,k therefore, not only the identity of "children of God" and "seed of Abraham" but also confirms our contention earlier that Paul's reference in 9.8 is NOT A GROUP with theocratic or merely historical privileges (NATION of Israel) but rather to PERSONS who are heirs of ETERNAL SALVATION.

 

[LaymansTermsPlease]

Romans 9:13
...just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”...

is a quote of

Malachi 1:2-3
...“Esau was Jacob’s brother,” the Lord explains, “yet I chose Jacob, and rejected Esau...

Just like some Calvinists love saying that "all" doesn't mean "all" because of context, this time context indicates that "hate" doesn't mean "hate".

The NET bible translators notes indicate that "reject" is a better word than "hate".

Translator Note: “and I loved Jacob, but Esau I hated.” The context indicates this is technical covenant vocabulary in which “love” and “hate” are synonymous with “choose” and “reject” respectively

Nobody disputes that God chose Jacob and rejected Esau, I just don't think in the case of Esau we can go so far as to say emotional "hate" as we understand the word in 21st century American English.