Forced to serve?

[HeirofSalvation]

Who said it did?
No, what you call "stumbling block" is the normal practice of leaders leading and followers following. Amazed how many on this thread have a problem with leadership and authority!

Seconded :thumbsup:

The main problem is applying a democratic process to a theocratic one. We don't all get a vote, God has determined the roles we play in the church, and not one has a sheep telling a shepherd where they "feel called" to go

Agreed... But I do believe we all have certain gifts we should use. I wouldn't stricltly require a policy which demands that ONE place specifically (i.e. nursery) be required....I do, however, have no problem with a policy which states that provided one is not serving in another capacity...then if they want to use nursery services...then they should serve in the nursery. For example...If I were driving the bus on Sundays for our bus ministry, and my wife were teaching a young ladies Sunday School class, then I don't think we should necessarily be required to pull nursery duty. If, however, neither of us were doing either...then I would be all for us being required to pull our weight. By "feeling called" I think we should rather say that we recognize where our gifts are, and we should use them. If, though, one is serving in NO other capacity, because they haven't "felt some calling" for it...then let the Scriptures give you your calling...."submit to those who have the rule over you..." THAT is what you should then "feel called" to do. But if the leadership of the church has THAT PARTICULAR policy....then we should submit ourselves to it. I think it is a little bit short-sighted, only given the scenario I suggest above, and should require the modifications I suggest. But although churches may be democratic....the "CHURCH" is a Theocracy. I submit to our pastor's leadership when I often personally disagree with his decisions or not.

 

[nodak]

Where I live, one of the distinctives of being a Baptist church is that it IS PURE DEMOCRACY.

Pastors lead under the authority of Christ, invested in him by the local church.

Day a pastor tries to rule is usually his last day of employment

 

[Luke2427]

That's just what the OP meant. That's what's generally meant.

Anyway, back to the actual topic. . .


Is the church's childcare drudgery scheme prorated?

Say a Duggar wannabe family shows up.

Does the church issue the work orders per family or per child?

It may be.

It think what it generally means today since the advent of Pentecostalism and TBN is that someone looks for some kind of feeling to come over them.

"I was lost. I came to a stop sign. I could turn left or right. I prayed. Suddenly I felt led to go left."

That's the kind of thing that most people mean, I think.

Should I marry this guy or that guy? I prayed and I felt led...

Should I go to this church or that church? I felt led...

Should I give this amount or that amount? I felt led...

Should I quit the ministry and get a secular job that pays more or should I...? I felt led...

It's bogus.

When you come to a fork in the road you employ wisdom to make the right decision. Not feelings that you think come from God.

What comes from God is the Bible and the Spirit within you bringing to remembrance and understanding the things written in the Bible.

 

[Luke2427]

Here's a thought...maybe this mystical "calling" being described occurs when you are asked to serve with the children (when you HAVE children)....yet some call it nonsense and absurd. I guess a "calling" is only something we like to do or we feel important enough doing.

Bingo.

Exactly.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Surely people misuse the phrase, "I feel led" or "I feel called". It's just like people misuse and abuse all kinds of phrases in the church.

But to assert that this means that God never leads or calls people into jobs in and out of the church is just as much as an abusive statement. This attitude in this thread is bothering me - alot.

God pricks the hearts of Christians all of the time with conviction to do certain things. Some Christians rise to the occasion in obedience and some don't.

The phrase "I feel called" by the Lord is not a bogus phrase. It's only when it is misused as as an excuse or as a way to bulldoze one's way into a place that isn't their business that it's wrong.

I have "felt lead" to do things all of the time. And YES, I ALWAYS have to have a prayer time to make sure that it's God's idea and not my own. And YES, there have been times when someone has asked me to do something in the church and there was just a void there in my heart about it. I prayed about it and the answer I received was "It's not you."

And I can tell you from personal testimony that there have been two times in my life that someone in the church "convinced" me that I was supposed to be doing a particular job and I took their word for it instead of God's and it turned out to be a huge disaster with some terrible spiritual ramifications.

 

[Luke2427]

Surely people misuse the phrase, "I feel led" or "I feel called". It's just like people misuse and abuse all kinds of phrases in the church.

But to assert that this means that God never leads or calls people into jobs in and out of the church is just as much as an abusive statement.

Who said such a thing?

Debate what is actually said, not what you mistakenly conclude from it.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Who said such a thing?

Debate what is actually said, not what you mistakenly conclude from it.

All right, then,.....correct me. I've went back and read this entire thread 3 times.

Explain it to me. Just how is a person supposed to verbalize the fact that God is leading them to perhaps (a) teach a Sunday School class, (b) step down from singing in the choir to fulfill another responsibility, or (c) help the janitor on Satudays without saying "God is leading me..."?

I don't deny that the phase can be abused. But how is one supposed to share that God is leading them without saying "God is leading me"?

I don't believe that phrase in and of itself is unbiblical nor evil.

 

[Revmitchell]

I don't believe that phrase in and of itself is unbiblical nor evil.

Neither do I.

 

[Luke2427]

All right, then,.....correct me. I've went back and read this entire thread 3 times.

Explain it to me. Just how is a person supposed to verbalize the fact that God is leading them to perhaps (a) teach a Sunday School class, (b) step down from singing in the choir to fulfill another responsibility, or (c) help the janitor on Satudays without saying "God is leading me..."?

I don't deny that the phase can be abused. But how is one supposed to share that God is leading them without saying "God is leading me"?

I don't believe that phrase in and of itself is unbiblical nor evil.

Once again, you debate against statements that have not even been made. No one is questioning the merit of the statement "God is leading me..."

Reasonable debate requires that both sides represent their opponents statements accurately and debate what they ACTUALLY say- not what you mistakenly conclude from what they say or what you think they are getting at.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Once again, you debate against statements that have not even been made. No one is questioning the merit of the statement "God is leading me..."

Reasonable debate requires that both sides represent their opponents statements accurately and debate what they ACTUALLY say- not what you mistakenly conclude from what they say or what you think they are getting at.

This is my last attempt.

What is the difference between "God is leading me to step down from the choir and serve as the pianst" and "I feel led by God to step down from the choir and serve as pianist."

You say here that the first has merit and no one is questioning it.

You've said earlier that the latter is unbiblical and evil.

All I want is to understand what you are talking about since you've said twice that I'm misunderstanding you.

And by-the-by, just because someone questions you or asks you to clarify things or disagrees with you does not make them your debate opponent. This isn't a debate competition. I just want you to clarify.

 

[Jereynolds]

"feel called" is where you lost me.

What does that mean? Where do you get that idea from?

Been away from this post for a bit dealing with work and the hurricane....Just want to add that I think you are probably right about the usage of "feel called" in the light that people often do abuse it and use the statement as an excuse to do or not to do something...my ex wife left me for another man (both proclaiming to be Christians) with the excuse that it was what God was calling her to do, so I am well versed in the abuse of the statement.
I guess a better way to state it would be to just say called and only after an individual uses scripture as the final authority and not a feeling. In my OP this is what was meant and not making decisions based on a warm fuzzy. Unfortunately though this is how a many Christians often look at life and decisions (Im just as guilty at times) and my concern would be that someone is going to teach my kids who does not "feel called" and with that attitude they might not take the job seriously.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Webdog, you posted....

More than you know. The main problem is applying a democratic process to a theocratic one. We don't all get a vote, God has determined the roles we play in the church, and not one has a sheep telling a shepherd where they "feel called" to go.

You seem to be saying that we should ignore our giftings and "calling", so that we can heed the dictates of a man, or men?

Am I misunderstanding you?

And btw, I have no problem regarding "grunt work" in church. I have volunteered scrubbing floors, cleaned bathrooms and toilets, mopped, painted, watched the kids, etc etc..

 

[Luke2427]

This is my last attempt.

What is the difference between "God is leading me to step down from the choir and serve as the pianst" and "I feel led by God to step down from the choir and serve as pianist."

You say here that the first has merit and no one is questioning it.

You've said earlier that the latter is unbiblical and evil.

All I want is to understand what you are talking about since you've said twice that I'm misunderstanding you.

And by-the-by, just because someone questions you or asks you to clarify things or disagrees with you does not make them your debate opponent. This isn't a debate competition. I just want you to clarify.

That's not what I said was evil. I was specific about what I thought was evil.

What is evil is that which I identified as flowing out from this erred philosophy that I simply condemn as erroneous in this thread.

The philosophy is erroneous- the thing which I spoke of which often results from the philosophy is what is evil.

And finally, this is DEBATE forum. That's what this thing is called in no uncertain terms.

Being an opponent does not mean being an enemy- it just means taking opposing sides on an issue. And "debate" is a noble thing- not something to shy away from. The best of friends often do this. You should not demonize it.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Luke2427, you posted...

That's not what I said was evil. I was specific about what I thought was evil.

What is evil is that which I identified as flowing out from this erred philosophy that I simply condemn as erroneous in this thread.

The philosophy is erroneous- the thing which I spoke of which often results from the philosophy is what is evil.

SAY WHAT!!!:laugh:

Could someome please decifer that gobbldegoop for me???? :thumbsup:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Scarlette, you posted....

Surely people misuse the phrase, "I feel led" or "I feel called". It's just like people misuse and abuse all kinds of phrases in the church.

But to assert that this means that God never leads or calls people into jobs in and out of the church is just as much as an abusive statement. This attitude in this thread is bothering me - alot.

God pricks the hearts of Christians all of the time with conviction to do certain things. Some Christians rise to the occasion in obedience and some don't.

The phrase "I feel called" by the Lord is not a bogus phrase. It's only when it is misused as as an excuse or as a way to bulldoze one's way into a place that isn't their business that it's wrong.

I have "felt lead" to do things all of the time. And YES, I ALWAYS have to have a prayer time to make sure that it's God's idea and not my own. And YES, there have been times when someone has asked me to do something in the church and there was just a void there in my heart about it. I prayed about it and the answer I received was "It's not you."

And I can tell you from personal testimony that there have been two times in my life that someone in the church "convinced" me that I was supposed to be doing a particular job and I took their word for it instead of God's and it turned out to be a huge disaster with some terrible spiritual ramifications.

Well said. I agree with you regarding this topic.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Does this view point extend to all areas of church life?

Is there a monitor at the door to the fellowship hall? If you don't bring a covered dish yourself, you can't eat what others brought.

If you don't sing in the choir, you can't listen to their voices?

If you don't teach a Sunday School class, you can't attend one?

If you don't help clean the restrooms, you can use one?

If you don't lead a Bible study group, you can't attend the meetings?

If you don't help vacuum the carpet, you can't walk down the isle to pray at the alter?

Frankly, sometimes it's amazing how many ways Christians can put stumbling blocks in the path of others. You MUST take classes before being baptised. You MUST be a "volunteer" in Children's Ministry if you have children in church. You MUST bring a covered dish to fellowship with others.

We want people to come to church. When they do, we want to apply LAW in some form for them to worship our Lord. What was the ONLY thing the thief on the cross have to do to be in Paradise with Christ?

Yes, there are people who take advantage of any situtation to serve themselves first. Those with groceries in the pantry will get in line when the truly needy are fed a meal. (Free holiday meals come to mind.) Yes, there are people who will not humble themselves to mop a floor or wash a dish. The world is full of takers. I'm sure that every church has their share of them, too.

Aren't those the very ones we are trying to reach in our ministries? Or, are we trying to find subtle and not so subtle ways to turn them away because they don't meet our "Christian" standards?

:thumbs: :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

Webdog, you posted....



You seem to be saying that we should ignore our giftings and "calling", so that we can heed the dictates of a man, or men?

Am I misunderstanding you?

And btw, I have no problem regarding "grunt work" in church. I have volunteered scrubbing floors, cleaned bathrooms and toilets, mopped, painted, watched the kids, etc etc..

Yes, you are misunderstanding me. Earlier in the thread I conceded we are all gifted differently to be utilized in the church, but we are all called to be servants, what is being discussed in the op. You also present somewhat of a false dichotomy as we are to utilize our gifts...and fall under the authority of our leaders. If a believing member has kids and are presented with the policy in the op, as someone who has placed themselves under their leadership they can either submit or find another church. I have no idea why someone would object working with children when they HAVE children, its baffling. The excuses on this thread have been lame and quite rebelious, imo.

 

[Sminasian]

I am a member of that church, with NO children who use the nursery. I have GRAND CHILDREN. One is in sunday school and the baby sits with her parents. The policy at my church is that ALL women must serve in the nursery, having children or not. We have men who have " parking lot duty", it is not madatory. There are a few who volunteer for that, no one is MAKING them attend in the parking lot. The fact is, not too many woman want to be stuck in a nursery with a ton of kids , changing diapers, feedings, wiping noses, etc... and the churches KNOW THIS, that is why they make it mandatory, if they didnt, how many women would REALLY " volunteer"? Not many I am sure

 

[annsni]

I don't understand the attitude of not wanting to help young mothers and finding being with their children such a burden. I was blessed so much by others helping with my own children and I wish I could help out in the nursery now. Well, my two older girls will step in if they are able to because it's a privilege to serve.

Our churches are in great trouble when it's all about "me" instead of "Christ gave His life, the least I can do is to help. Where can I best serve to assist the workings of this ministry?" For a church to feel that they need to assign women to work in the nursery because otherwise it wouldn't be staffed is a sign of unhealthy people in the church. Instead, it should be a place where they have to say "Oh, I wish I had someplace for you to serve this week but we're full."

 

[webdog]

Luke2427, you posted...



SAY WHAT!!!:laugh:

Could someome please decifer that gobbldegoop for me???? :thumbsup:

Sure. The part you don't understand is "I don't feel this calling to work with babies and children as it is_________ (insert excuse: beneath me, don't want to change diapers, wipe noses, hold crying babies, etc., don't feel like doing it so I will just say 'I'm not called to do it', you cannot tell me what to do, I dictate how I serve in the church, etc.)"