Foreknowledge

[preacher4truth]

Can anyone prove this with scripture? Show me a definitive passage that states that God's foreknowledge is based on His election and not on our obedience to the Gospel?

Robert, you brought this up, and state that He saved us based upon what you've said.

The burden of proof lies upon you to prove what you've said. This is your thread, and is in your OP.

Rom. 8:29,30

In eternity past God knew who would freely respond to the Gospel of His Son. God called those, who He knew would believe; He justified them and predestinated them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

In doing this God is both sovereign and allows mankind to respond to His wonderful grace found in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Provide Scriptural proof for your statements.

 

[Robert Snow]

Let me make sure I understand you here. Are you saying that God looked down through time and history to see who would believe and then He ordained them?

I believe God offered mankind salvation in Christ Jesus. He, being God, has always know who will and will not obey the Gospel call.

The only other scenario I can see is the Calvinist view that God decided who will believe and who will not; that His foreknowledge is based on His choosing who He will save. This would also mean that God decided who will go to hell and who won't. This is something I cannot abide. I view this as error.

Please provide me an alternative to this if you can.

 

[preacher4truth]

I believe God offered mankind salvation in Christ Jesus. He, being God, has always know who will and will not obey the Gospel call.

The only other scenario I can see is the Calvinist view that God decided who will believe and who will not; that His foreknowledge is based on His choosing who He will save. This would also mean that God decided who will go to hell and who won't. This is something I cannot abide. I view this as error.

Please provide me an alternative to this if you can.

Is God all-wise and all knowing Robert?

Would His doing this, in the "calvinist" view make you trust in His wisdom and purpose any less because of doing so?

He knows all things, and I trust Him in this. He knows best, and we are finite.

 

[freeatlast]

I believe God offered mankind salvation in Christ Jesus. He, being God, has always know who will and will not obey the Gospel call.

The only other scenario I can see is the Calvinist view that God decided who will believe and who will not; that His foreknowledge is based on His choosing who He will save. This would also mean that God decided who will go to hell and who won't. This is something I cannot abide. I view this as error.

Please provide me an alternative to this if you can.

Not trying to be picky here, but that does not answer me so I can understand what you are saying. How did He always know? Looking forward or ordaining it? or how? In other words the order you are putting this makes God's election subject to man's volition. Is that what you are saying instead of man's volition subject to God's election. Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[Robert Snow]

Not trying to be picky here, but that does not answer me so I can understand what you are saying. How did He always know? Looking forward or ordaining it? or how? In other words the order you are putting this makes God's election subject to man's volition. Is that what you are saying instead of man's volition subject to God's election. Am I understanding you correctly?

Sorry, but I don't understand what you are asking.

I believe God has offered to all of mankind salvation and anyone who chooses to obey The Gospel will be saved. I do not believe that God has only chosen a certain number to allow to be saved. Anyone who will respond to the Gospel call and yield to the conviction of the Holy Spirit will be saved.

 

[Tom Butler]

What about Acts 13:48?

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

The order seems clear. Ordained to eternal life
Believed

This also suggests strongly that only those ordained to eternal life believed.
It also suggests that only those ordained to eternal life would believe.
It also suggests that those ordained to eternal life will always believe.

 

[Jon-Marc]

I agree with Robert. God saves those who respond to His call. His foreknowledge allows Him to know before hand who will come to Him and who won't. Then He elects to save those who respond and come to him. I cannot and will not believe in a God who is so unjust that He chooses who He will or will not save regardless of whether or not we respond to His call to come and be forgiven and won't save someone who sincerely repents, believes, and calls on Him for forgiveness and salvation simply because they not one of the "elect".

We are not saved because of His election to save us; He elects to save us because He knows beforehand that we will respond. Why else would He say "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"? If it's not a case of "whosoever shall call", then those words are a lie since according to some He has already chosen who He will and will not saved because of His preference and not by our response and His foreknowledge.

 

[Iconoclast]

What does "foreknow" mean? Doesn't it mean to know in advance?

Yes....know the people....not know or learn what they will do.
Robert,
Good question. Adam knew Eve and she conceived, Adam knew Eve again and she conceived. Joseph knew not Mary until after the birth of Jesus.
You only have I known of all the nations of the earth.

Twice in Gen, once in Amos, and in the gospels the Lord uses this language to speak of a special intimate relationship. To know meant sexual union in Genesis, and the gospels. In Amos God says to Israel at that time you only have I known......that does not mean he did not know about the other nations, or that Adam did not know about Eve.

As several have posted.....WHOM......he did foreknow.....is saying those God has entered into an intimate covenant relationship with.....He also did predestinate.
His knowledge of them is from eternity past.

1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

25And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Notice she also said..God has appointed another seed,instead of Abel...she saw the godly line being continued so the promised seed could come.

2You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

[QUOTE 34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? ][/QUOTE]

24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

God knew His people before time, the Father gave them to the Son.

Jn6

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

jn17

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him[/QUOTE]

6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine

 

[Ruiz]

I agree with Robert. God saves those who respond to His call. His foreknowledge allows Him to know before hand who will come to Him and who won't. Then He elects to save those who respond and come to him. I cannot and will not believe in a God who is so unjust that He chooses who He will or will not save regardless of whether or not we respond to His call to come and be forgiven and won't save someone who sincerely repents, believes, and calls on Him for forgiveness and salvation simply because they not one of the "elect".

We are not saved because of His election to save us; He elects to save us because He knows beforehand that we will respond. Why else would He say "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"? If it's not a case of "whosoever shall call", then those words are a lie since according to some He has already chosen who He will and will not saved because of His preference and not by our response and His foreknowledge.

Just reiterating my statement. The Greek word for foreknowledge never is in relation to knowing an action, but knowing a person. The Bible does not talk about it ever in foreknowing a verb, but a person. This is an intimate knowledge, not a reactionary knowledge.

 

[Robert Snow]

Just reiterating my statement. The Greek word for foreknowledge never is in relation to knowing an action, but knowing a person. The Bible does not talk about it ever in foreknowing a verb, but a person. This is an intimate knowledge, not a reactionary knowledge.

In looking at the commentaries, they seem to say that foreknowledge means to know in advance. I fear you are filtering the meaning through your Calvinistic lens. No offense meant, but we do have a tendency to do these things.

Do you have any definitive proof that foreknowledge is more than knowing in advance? If so, let me know. Thus far I have seen nor read nothing to the contrary.

 

[jbh28]

I agree with Robert. God saves those who respond to His call. His foreknowledge allows Him to know before hand who will come to Him and who won't. Then He elects to save those who respond and come to him.

Problem is that Scripture doesn't teach that. Romans 8 has to have words added to make it mean he looks ahead to see who chooses him.

I cannot and will not believe in a God who is so unjust that He chooses who He will or will not save regardless of whether or not we respond to His call to come and be forgiven...

How is that unjust? Is God sending someone to hell because they are a sinner unjust? Surely you wouldn't say He's unjust with that. Was Jesus unjust when he raised Lazarus from physical death, but not others? Surely not! God is not obligated to save anyone. He wouldn't be unjust to save one and not others. We do not deserve salvation, nor the change to be saved.

and won't save someone who sincerely repents, believes, and calls on Him for forgiveness and salvation simply because they not one of the "elect".

No Calvinist believes that someone will truly repent and come to Jesus and be rejected because of not being elect. We teach that because of the depravity of man, no one will on their own come.

We are not saved because of His election to save us; He elects to save us because He knows beforehand that we will respond.

Again, provide Scripture that says he chose us based on looking ahead in the future and choosing those that came to him without manipulating the verse.

Why else would He say "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"? If it's not a case of "whosoever shall call", then those words are a lie since according to some He has already chosen who He will and will not saved because of His preference and not by our response and His foreknowledge.

Because they are true. The Lord will reject no one that truly calls on the name of the Lord to be saved.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree with Robert. God saves those who respond to His call. His foreknowledge allows Him to know before hand who will come to Him and who won't. Then He elects to save those who respond and come to him. I cannot and will not believe in a God who is so unjust that He chooses who He will or will not save regardless of whether or not we respond to His call to come and be forgiven and won't save someone who sincerely repents, believes, and calls on Him for forgiveness and salvation simply because they not one of the "elect".

We are not saved because of His election to save us; He elects to save us because He knows beforehand that we will respond. Why else would He say "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"? If it's not a case of "whosoever shall call", then those words are a lie since according to some He has already chosen who He will and will not saved because of His preference and not by our response and His foreknowledge.

While God knows all things.....he also knew that fallen men would never come to Him'

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

So....he set His Love on a multitude of people who will be enabled to believe. For WHOM he did foreknow.:type:

 

[webdog]

What about Acts 13:48?


The order seems clear. Ordained to eternal life
Believed

This also suggests strongly that only those ordained to eternal life believed.
It also suggests that only those ordained to eternal life would believe.
It also suggests that those ordained to eternal life will always believe.

The greek word translated as ordained or appointed means plainly "being set into position".

This must be viewed in light of verses 46 and 47 as well. Based on the context it is clear it is speaking of the Gentiles being put into position as was God's plan all along of bringing them into the fold.

 

[Iconoclast]

Partially true. The elect are believers in Christ, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. The moment we are justified through faith we were also chosen and slain before the foundation of the world. Christ is referred to as THE Elect. Regardless of where you view faith coming from we are required to have faith, so this is something we do (and that never makes it a work)

Webdog,

The moment we are justified through faith we were also chosen and slain before the foundation of the world.

The closest we can agree here is that at regeneration and conversion.....we make it evident that we are among the multitude that God had chosen before time.

those who have been chosen or elected.....repent, believe, exercise faith, come to Jesus, and continue on in the faith.

Christ is referred to as THE Elect.

Yes He is. And we are placed in union with Him by Spirit Baptism at pentecost.
Then we are conceived as sinners,fallen and dead in Adam.....live in rebellion {even as others}......BUT God

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

[webdog]

The closest we can agree here is that at regeneration and conversion.....we make it evident that we are among the multitude that God had chosen before time.

those who have been chosen or elected.....repent, believe, exercise faith, come to Jesus, and continue on in the faith.

I understand that is what you believe.

Yes He is. And we are placed in union with Him by Spirit Baptism at pentecost.
Then we are conceived as sinners,fallen and dead in Adam.....live in rebellion {even as others}......BUT God

We are in union with Christ via faith.

 

[Van]

Hello Robert Snow, great topic for a thread. Your position appeared to be classic Armininism, where God looked into the future, as if it existed in His mind, and saw who would respond to the call and chose them before creation.

Now I am sure many Calvinists have posted yet another view, also made up of pure speculation.

If you are willing, lets back up and consider what the Bible actually says.

First we must deal with the Greek words translated "foreknew and foreknowledge." They have nothing to do with the modern meaning of seeing the future. What they actually refer to is obtaining knowledge in the past, such as a plan of action, and then in the present, implementing that plan. Thus Christ was crucified according to God's foreknowledge.

So first, consider that the way you and the Calvinists use the words is to claim God is looking at something in the future and using that knowledge in the present, i.e. in eternity past, God looked forward into created time, before He created it, and "learned" what we would freely choose. This is a complete fiction, because that is not what the Bible is saying.

Lets consider the problems with the fictional view. God apparently knows what He will decide, thus when He created creation, He already knew and had "intimate knowledge of" what He would create. This is an incomprehensible absurdity. But when you use the actual meaning of the word, i.e. knowledge acquired or formulate in the past, and being utilized in the present, a whole different view of God's word emerges.

In Acts 2:23 Christ is delivered up according to God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge. What this is saying is God had planned what would happen in the future, rather than saying He foresaw what was somehow established before He created it, and then caused His plan to be implemented, thus by the foreknowledge of God. You can read what God said He would bring about in Isaiah 53, and compare that will what Peter is preaching! So using this verse, Acts 2:23, we see foreknowledge refers to knowledge obtained or formulated in the past and then being utilized in the present.

In Acts 26:5 we again see the same meaning. Folks who had known Paul when Paul was young, have this knowledge, obtained in the past when Paul was young, being utilized in the present

Now in Romans 8:28, we must ask when and how did God obtain or formulate some plan concerning "whom He foreknew." Before the foundation of the world, i.e. in eternity past, God "chose us in Him." Both Classic Armininians and Calvinists claim this is an individual election before creation. But many others, including some Arminians, believe this election before creation was corporate, i.e. when God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb, before creation, He in effect chose all those who His Redeemer would redeem, thus "He chose us in Him." So this plan of redemption was obtained or formulated in eternity past,and is being implemented in the present when God places individuals into the body of Christ. No hocus pocus is needed to understand this verse plainly and simply.

For whom He foreknew, i.e. corporately elected when He chose Christ to be His lamb before creation, He also predestined, as part of His plan for anyone individually placed in Christ, to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first born of many brethren and those who He predestined, i.e. corporately elected to be conformed, He called, through His gospel, and those whose faith in His Son He accepted, these He placed individually elected and placed in Christ where we are justified, and those He justified, He glorified, for those spiritually in Christ are spiritually in the kingdom of God and hence glorified.

Simple, straightforward and based on using the actual meaning of the words.

 

[Iconoclast]

The greek word translated as ordained or appointed means plainly "being set into position".

This must be viewed in light of verses 46 and 47 as well. Based on the context it is clear it is speaking of the Gentiles being put into position as was God's plan all along of bringing them into the fold.

Wd
What is the greek word for......as many as......were ordained???
it does not mean all gentiles without distiction does it?
I think it means as many persons aswere ordained...why is this language used if he was just saying that gentiles in general were also included.

 

[Iconoclast]

Now in Romans 8:28, we must ask when and how did God obtain or formulate some plan concerning "whom He foreknew." Before the foundation of the world, i.e. in eternity past, God "chose us in Him." Both Classic Armininians and Calvinists claim this is an individual election before creation. But many others, including some Arminians believe is election was corporate, i.e. when God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb, before creation, He in effect chose all those who His Redeemer would redeem, thus "He chose us in Him."
So this plan of redemption was obtained or fomulated in eternity past, is being implimented in the present when God places individuals into the body of Christ. No hocus pocus is needed to understand this verse plainly and simply.

For whom He foreknew, i.e. corporated elected when He chose Christ to be His lamb before creation, He also predestined, as part of His plan for anyone individually placed in Christ, to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first born of many brethren and those who He predestined, i.e. corporately elected to be conformed, He called, through His gospel, and those whose faith in His Son He accepted, these He placed individually in Christ and justified, and those He justified, He glorified, for those spiritually in Christ are spiritually in the kingdom of God and hence glorified.

Simple, straightforward and based on using the actual meaning of the words.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:fiddlesticks

 

[Ruiz]

In looking at the commentaries, they seem to say that foreknowledge means to know in advance. I fear you are filtering the meaning through your Calvinistic lens. No offense meant, but we do have a tendency to do these things.

Do you have any definitive proof that foreknowledge is more than knowing in advance? If so, let me know. Thus far I have seen nor read nothing to the contrary.

This is not merely in a Calvinistic lense, but this is the nature of the word. Even if you break it down, the word is related to other personal words to know. It would be even more clear that if you read every instance in the Bible that is about foreknow, it is always referring to individuals, not actions.

 

[webdog]

Wd
What is the greek word for......as many as......were ordained???
it does not mean all gentiles without distiction does it?
I think it means as many persons aswere ordained...why is this language used if he was just saying that gentiles in general were also included.

The Gentiles in the city that had an interest in the message presented to the Jews the previous week. You are missing the context and focusing on the single verse. I believe Luke's intention was to simply define "believer".