Foreknowledge

[Winman]

Again, I am not doubting Jesus is omniscient. I am stating that the verses mentioning foreknew is not talking about this, but is talking about something completely different. I understand what you are saying, but the issue is the theology of "foreknew" and that is why I outlined everywhere it is mentioned in the New Testament. Thus, to get a theology of foreknowledge, we have to deal with the places in Scripture this word is used.

You cannot take another word in another place and input that definition on a different word somewhere else. Rather, we must deal with the word first and foremost where it is taught.

Jesus did know Nathanael in a personal way, and called him an Israelite indeed! This is a true Jew, children of the promise.

Note what Nathanael asked in surprise, Whence KNOWEST THOU ME? It's right there if you will see it, Jesus KNEW Nathanael.

Then notice how Jesus answered, BEFORE Nathanael was CALLED, Jesus SAW HIM. And in vs. 50 Jesus said Nathanael believed.

Take those Calvinist blinders off and it is plain as day.

 

[annsni]

You could have a better understanding right now if you examine what the scriptures say and show. Jn 6:64 directly says Jesus knew FROM THE BEGINNING who believed not. If Jesus knew who would not believe, then he also knows who will believe, it is a simple process of elimination. Then in vs. 70 he speaks of choosing the twelve. Is not choosing election?

In Jn 1:44-51 the scriptures show Jesus saw Nathanael before he was called (vs. 48) and believed (vs. 50), again a picture of foreseen faith. And we know Nathanael was chosen.

It's there if you are OPEN to it.

Jn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Coming to him- coming to Jesus
Israelite indeed- children of promise, not flesh
Whence knowest thou me?- foreknowledge
Before- foreknowledge
Called- those he did foreknow, them he also called
I saw thee- foreknowledge

It's all there.

So in other words, Jesus knew who would follow Him so He chose those men to follow Him? That makes absolutely no sense. Or how about He knew these men beforehand and chose them to follow Him?

 

[Winman]

So in other words, Jesus knew who would follow Him so He chose those men to follow Him? That makes absolutely no sense. Or how about He knew these men beforehand and chose them to follow Him?

What? What would make no sense is to pick those who would not believe. The eleven apostles besides Judas were simple men, fishermen and tax collectors, but they believed in Jesus and gave their lives for him.

Who in the world would pick unfaithful persons? If you commanded an army, would you choose unfaithful officers below you? I wouldn't.

 

[Ruiz]

Jesus did know Nathanael in a personal way, and called him an Israelite indeed! This is a true Jew, children of the promise.

Note what Nathanael asked in surprise, Whence KNOWEST THOU ME? It's right there if you will see it, Jesus KNEW Nathanael.

Then notice how Jesus answered, BEFORE Nathanael was CALLED, Jesus SAW HIM. And in vs. 50 Jesus said Nathanael believed.

Take those Calvinist blinders off and it is plain as day.

You are arguing apples and oranges. I did an exegesis on several passages. You have not disagreed with that argument but chose to go another direction. I am arguing the doctrine of foreknowledge by taking the passages that word is used and drawing conclusions. You have yet to address those issues. Based upon what I communicated about foreknowledge, what did you disagree with? Based upon those passages, how am I wrong?

 

[preacher4truth]

What? What would make no sense is to pick those who would not believe. The eleven apostles besides Judas were simple men, fishermen and tax collectors, but they believed in Jesus and gave their lives for him.

Who in the world would pick unfaithful persons? If you commanded an army, would you choose unfaithful officers below you? I wouldn't.

Jesus perhaps? For His own purposes maybe?

Wonder who chose Pharaoh?

He picked Judas didn't He? Uh?

He's Sovereign, and He chose each of us, not vice versa.

Every disciple failed him and fled from Him. Guess who chose them? You've also failed Him, and he chose you.

 

[preacher4truth]

You are arguing apples and oranges. I did an exegesis on several passages. You have not disagreed with that argument but chose to go another direction. I am arguing the doctrine of foreknowledge by taking the passages that word is used and drawing conclusions. You have yet to address those issues. Based upon what I communicated about foreknowledge, what did you disagree with? Based upon those passages, how am I wrong?

This is typical, the going in a different direction. Your answers and arguments have been spot on.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes our obediance is a work, but it is not the work that saves. It is grace that saves through faith.
Even faith is a work, but it is not the work that saves, it is the grace that saves through the faith.

1Thess 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Thess 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Exactly! That sums it up.:thumbs:

 

[Robert Snow]

Thank you Winman for putting a correct theological monkey wrench in the Calvinistic machine of mis-interpretation.

God choose those who would respond to the Gospel, those who would say yes to the Holy Spirit's conviction.

 

[preacher4truth]

Exactly! That sums it up.:thumbs:

This work of faith mentioned in fals passages refer to the redeemed. It has nothing to do with "saving" faith whatsoever.

 

[Ruiz]

Thank you Winman for putting a correct theological monkey wrench in the Calvinistic machine of mis-interpretation.

God choose those who would respond to the Gospel, those who would say yes to the Holy Spirit's conviction.

I don't think you all understand that we are arguing two very different things in these verses. Winman is committing an exegetical fallacy. I am arguing "foreknown" from a didactic teaching, he is arguing a completely different word from a story, not even didactic teaching. In English, it would be similar to arguing the definition for "understand" as used in a dictionary and someone arguing for the word "stand" as used in the book Charlotte's Webb in an attempt to argue against me. It not only is poor argument, it is irrational.

Thus, that is why I began with arguing with everyplace the word "foreknew" was in the Bible. He could attempt to change the debate, but it is not arguing against my view, rather it is a straw man.

I can't argue against another completely different word used in a completely different context. I can argue for the word we are discussing in the context the Bible provides. That is what I have done. He still has yet to engage.

 

[webdog]

Can an unbeliever be conformed into Christ's image? If not, those foreknown and predestined must be believers...not foreknown and predestined to becomebelievers

 

[jbh28]

What? What would make no sense is to pick those who would not believe. The eleven apostles besides Judas ....

... Jesus CHOSE twelve disciples, and knew eleven would believe in him, and that one, Judas, would not believe and would betray him.

This is a picture of election according to foreknowledge.

So obviously Jesus did NOT choose people to be his disciples based on foreknowledge of believing. Otherwise Judas would not have been picked.

 

[Robert Snow]

G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

Doesn't this say, "to know beforehand?"

 

[annsni]

What? What would make no sense is to pick those who would not believe. The eleven apostles besides Judas were simple men, fishermen and tax collectors, but they believed in Jesus and gave their lives for him.

Who in the world would pick unfaithful persons? If you commanded an army, would you choose unfaithful officers below you? I wouldn't.

I believe the others pointed out that Jesus chose one who would not believe.

 

[jbh28]

G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

Doesn't this say, "to know beforehand?"

and something else

 

[Ruiz]

G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

Doesn't this say, "to know beforehand?"

It is a theological compound word. Thus the sum of the compound parts do not always equal the definition (take our word "understand"). that is why I turned to how it was used, doing such you get an entirely different view of how the word is used.

While D.A. Carson does not address this specific issue, he notes that there are many compound words in the Greek that cannot be used to denote the sum of the parts. Even in English we cannot do such.

Thus, we must first start with how it is used in Scripture.

 

[Winman]

So obviously Jesus did NOT choose people to be his disciples based on foreknowledge of believing. Otherwise Judas would not have been picked.

Nonsense, Judas was chosen for a purpose, to fulfill scripture.

Jn 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

If God caused Judas to betray Jesus, then God is the author of sin.

Jesus chose Judas to fulfill prophecy. He did not cause Judas to betray him, but he foreknew he would.

What is the marvel in foretelling a determined event? None. But if Jesus could foretell an undetermined event, it would prove he is God and give evidence for faith. This is what Jesus says in vs. 19.

 

[jbh28]

Nonsense, Judas was chosen for a purpose, to fulfill scripture.

What's nonsense is your obvious contradiction.

 

[God's_Servant]

Nonsense, Judas was chosen for a purpose, to fulfill scripture.

Jn 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

If God caused Judas to betray Jesus, then God is the author of sin.

Jesus chose Judas to fulfill prophecy. He did not cause Judas to betray him, but he foreknew he would.

What is the marvel in foretelling a determined event? None. But if Jesus could foretell an undetermined event, it would prove he is God and give evidence for faith. This is what Jesus says in vs. 19.

So, are you telling me, that, through his actions, Judas somehow informed God of what he was going to do, then God acted in response to that?

 

[Rippon]

Nonsense

What is the marvel in foretelling a determined event? None. But if Jesus could foretell an undetermined event, it would prove he is God and give evidence for faith.

No one else can do that --only God can. It's a sign of His Godhood.

No events are undetermined.