Foreknowledge

Jesus did know Nathanael in a personal way, and called him an Israelite indeed! This is a true Jew, children of the promise.

Note what Nathanael asked in surprise, Whence KNOWEST THOU ME? It's right there if you will see it, Jesus KNEW Nathanael.

Then notice how Jesus answered, BEFORE Nathanael was CALLED, Jesus SAW HIM. And in vs. 50 Jesus said Nathanael believed.

Take those Calvinist blinders off and it is plain as day.

 

What? What would make no sense is to pick those who would not believe. The eleven apostles besides Judas were simple men, fishermen and tax collectors, but they believed in Jesus and gave their lives for him.

Who in the world would pick unfaithful persons? If you commanded an army, would you choose unfaithful officers below you? I wouldn't.

 

You are arguing apples and oranges. I did an exegesis on several passages. You have not disagreed with that argument but chose to go another direction. I am arguing the doctrine of foreknowledge by taking the passages that word is used and drawing conclusions. You have yet to address those issues. Based upon what I communicated about foreknowledge, what did you disagree with? Based upon those passages, how am I wrong?

 

Jesus perhaps? For His own purposes maybe?

Wonder who chose Pharaoh?

He picked Judas didn't He? Uh?

He's Sovereign, and He chose each of us, not vice versa.

Every disciple failed him and fled from Him. Guess who chose them? You've also failed Him, and he chose you.

 

This is typical, the going in a different direction. Your answers and arguments have been spot on.

 

Exactly! That sums it up.:thumbs:

 

This work of faith mentioned in fals passages refer to the redeemed. It has nothing to do with "saving" faith whatsoever.

 

I don't think you all understand that we are arguing two very different things in these verses. Winman is committing an exegetical fallacy. I am arguing "foreknown" from a didactic teaching, he is arguing a completely different word from a story, not even didactic teaching. In English, it would be similar to arguing the definition for "understand" as used in a dictionary and someone arguing for the word "stand" as used in the book Charlotte's Webb in an attempt to argue against me. It not only is poor argument, it is irrational.

Thus, that is why I began with arguing with everyplace the word "foreknew" was in the Bible. He could attempt to change the debate, but it is not arguing against my view, rather it is a straw man.

I can't argue against another completely different word used in a completely different context. I can argue for the word we are discussing in the context the Bible provides. That is what I have done. He still has yet to engage.

 

Can an unbeliever be conformed into Christ's image? If not, those foreknown and predestined must be believers...not foreknown and predestined to becomebelievers

 

So obviously Jesus did NOT choose people to be his disciples based on foreknowledge of believing. Otherwise Judas would not have been picked.

 

and something else

 

It is a theological compound word. Thus the sum of the compound parts do not always equal the definition (take our word "understand"). that is why I turned to how it was used, doing such you get an entirely different view of how the word is used.

While D.A. Carson does not address this specific issue, he notes that there are many compound words in the Greek that cannot be used to denote the sum of the parts. Even in English we cannot do such.

Thus, we must first start with how it is used in Scripture.

 

Nonsense, Judas was chosen for a purpose, to fulfill scripture.

Jn 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

If God caused Judas to betray Jesus, then God is the author of sin.

Jesus chose Judas to fulfill prophecy. He did not cause Judas to betray him, but he foreknew he would.

What is the marvel in foretelling a determined event? None. But if Jesus could foretell an undetermined event, it would prove he is God and give evidence for faith. This is what Jesus says in vs. 19.

 

What's nonsense is your obvious contradiction.

 

So, are you telling me, that, through his actions, Judas somehow informed God of what he was going to do, then God acted in response to that?

 

No one else can do that --only God can. It's a sign of His Godhood.

No events are undetermined.