Four questions for Calvinists.

[JonShaff]

Yes.....physical resurrection . .....did he will himself to rise?
The unsaved are ......@ corpse
Physical miracles are illustrations of spiritual truth's

Whoa whoa whoa...Yes physical Miracles are examples of Spiritual Truths, But you misapply this if you are thinking regeneration.

First of all, Jesus Says SPECIFICALLY He is doing this to show Himself being the LIFE and RESURRECTION.

Lazarus would have already been regenerated, so Christ is not teaching/showing us that in this Miracle.

He is teaching us that He is the Resurrection. Period.

This is not addressing the "unsaved"....eisegesis my friend.

 

[Iconoclast]

Whoa whoa whoa...Yes physical Miracles are examples of Spiritual Truths, But you misapply this if you are thinking regeneration.

First of all, Jesus Says SPECIFICALLY He is doing this to show Himself being the LIFE and RESURRECTION.

Lazarus would have already been regenerated, so Christ is not teaching/showing us that in this Miracle.

He is teaching us that He is the Resurrection. Period.

This is not addressing the "unsaved"....eisegesis my friend.

Hello JonS
Look just physically . ....death to life.....
THE only thing you bring is a dead body.....and a dead body being dead is unable to do anything but stink and decay.
1 Cor 15:44-58....physical first....then spiritual . ...

 

[glad4mercy]

Corpses can hear God.jn5

HALLELUJAH!!

There you go! That's the DRAWING, just like I said. Drawn, believe, regeneration. Elementary.

If they are still corpses AND HEAR, then they were drawn, but not yet regenerate.

If they are corpses WHEN THEY HEAR, how can they be said to be regenerate, (spiritually raised)

They are drawn (act of God), then believe, then God regenerates monergistically.

You are the one who said they hear while still corpses.

Kudos.

 

[Iconoclast]

HALLELUJAH!!

There you go! That's the DRAWING, just like I said. Drawn, believe, regeneration. Elementary.

If they are still corpses AND HEAR, then they were drawn, but not yet regenerate.

If they are corpses WHEN THEY HEAR, how can they be said to be regenerate, (spiritually raised)

They are drawn (act of God), then believe, then God regenerates monergistically.

You are the one who said they hear while still corpses.

Kudos.

You rejoice too fast....regeneration animates the corpse enabling the hearing....obviously. ...lol
If you think otherwise try starting some conversation in the graveyard. ...let us know how far you get with that....lol

 

[JonC]

You rejoice too fast....regeneration animates the corpse enabling the hearing....obviously. ...lol
If you think otherwise try starting some conversation in the graveyard. ...let us know how far you get with that....lol

Icon, will you define "regeneration" for me?

I have been thinking of this "washing" (how Paul uses the word in Titus) and reworking of the Spirit, but those words (Titus 2) seem also to identify with that faith of Titus 1:11-13. But this regeneration seems to indicate salvation itself (which is indeed through faith)....so I'm not sure we are using the same definition here.

Also, just a side note, it is great to have had this thread actually going on for 64 posts without being hijacked and turned into brother insulting brother. It's been a long time since I've seen dialogue remain Christian this long in this section of the board.

 

[glad4mercy]

You rejoice too fast....regeneration animates the corpse enabling the hearing....obviously. ...lol
If you think otherwise try starting some conversation in the graveyard. ...let us know how far you get with that....lol

quote- ....regeneration animates the corpse enabling the hearing....

But if regeneration animates the corpse to enable the hearing, the corpse is no longer a corpse when it hears, OBVIOUSLY...

so NO, corpses do not hear unless they are raised. But unlike corpses, dead sinners are capable of hearing with their physical ears and either not understanding or rejecting. So the Lazarus analogy you are using is incomplete.

So now you will say "effectual call", which is fine. But the analogy you are using is still incomplete. A sinner can reject God's command to repent. A corpse cannot, because the Soul is gone from the body. The soul is not gone from the body in spiritual death, it is rather separated from God

So the analogy is incomplete

 

[utilyan]

Here comes another sola "Saved by Regeneration Alone"

Sola Regeneratus.

You know what needs to be looked at is this Regeneration and Justification as being two seperate things or one thing, that occurs seperate times or same time, Once and for all, or continuously.


1 Corinthians 7
19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is being regenerated and faith alone.



Galatians 5

4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.


4You have been BACKSLID from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have BACKSLID from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by regeneration, are waiting for the hope of FAITH. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through regeneration.

6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith alone.



1 john 1

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

9regenerator! Imputed wrongy on Jesus.....and righty on us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Yeshua1]

Where does the Bible say that everyone whom Christ died for will be saved? Book, chapter, verse please. I believe that this assertion is an EXTRAPOLATION, and not based on SOLA SCRIPTURA.

Prove me wrong with SCRIPTURES, and I will accept the premise.

Jesus stated that he gave His life for his opwn sheep, who were all those whom the father had given to Him to get saved...

hebrews also makes it clear that was the High Priest who is able to eternally save the MANY that he died for!

 

[Yeshua1]

We agree closely enough. Our "disagreement" here is minute enough not to be a cause of contention nor a matter in need of hashing out. We agree that "drawing" is not "regeneration" and that the "logical order" of regeneration and then faith is not without issues.

Except that a sinner must be enabled by the Holy Spirit to hear and respond to the Gospel, as natural man receives not the things of the Spirit, correct?

 

[JonC]

Except that a sinner must be enabled by the Holy Spirit to hear and respond to the Gospel, as natural man receives not the things of the Spirit, correct?

I think that people take the analogy of a "spiritual corpse" too far. Scripture presents the spiritually dead as possessing spirits inclined away from God, not as spiritually unable to respond. In fact, the spiritually dead do respond spiritually to God. They sin, they turn away, they rebel.

I believe that God works in the wills of men to incline their wills to Himself (God draws men). I don't know that I'd say God enables men to respond as much as God brings them to that faith.

 

[Iconoclast]

quote- ....regeneration animates the corpse enabling the hearing....

But if regeneration animates the corpse to enable the hearing, the corpse is no longer a corpse when it hears, OBVIOUSLY...

so NO, corpses do not hear unless they are raised. But unlike corpses, dead sinners are capable of hearing with their physical ears and either not understanding or rejecting. So the Lazarus analogy you are using is incomplete.

So now you will say "effectual call", which is fine. But the analogy you are using is still incomplete. A sinner can reject God's command to repent. A corpse cannot, because the Soul is gone from the body. The soul is not gone from the body in spiritual death, it is rather separated from God

So the analogy is incomplete

Scripturally......it is correct 1 Cor 2:14.......he cannot...........you say he can

 

[Yeshua1]

I think that people take the analogy of a "spiritual corpse" too far. Scripture presents the spiritually dead as possessing spirits inclined away from God, not as spiritually unable to respond. In fact, the spiritually dead do respond spiritually to God. They sin, they turn away, they rebel.

I believe that God works in the wills of men to incline their wills to Himself (God draws men). I don't know that I'd say God enables men to respond as much as God brings them to that faith.

The spirtual dead always by their own "will" will do as you stated here, as that is their natural inclination...

Are you saying that God extends his grace towards all to respond in a saving fashion, or just unto his elect then?

 

[JonC]

The spirtual dead always by their own "will" will do as you stated here, as that is their natural inclination...

Are you saying that God extends his grace towards all to respond in a saving fashion, or just unto his elect then?

I am saying that God offers salvation to all, but none of their own natural will comes. God draws the elect to Himself.

 

[Revmitchell]

I am saying that God offers salvation to all, but none of their own natural will comes. God draws the elect to Himself.

Really? That is in complete opposition to the standard understanding of election and God's Sovereignty by reformed folks.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am saying that God offers salvation to all, but none of their own natural will comes. God draws the elect to Himself.

Are you then a "4 point Calvinist?"

Holding to the Unlimited view of the Atonement?

 

[JonC]

Really? That is in complete opposition to the standard understanding of election and God's Sovereignty by reformed folks.

Well, I wouldn't hold it against them.

 

[JonC]

Are you then a "4 point Calvinist?"

Holding to the Unlimited view of the Atonement?

No. I believe the Cross is an atonement for only those who believe, who come (and no one comes but that the Father draw them), the elect.

 

[Yeshua1]

No. I believe the Cross is an atonement for only those who believe, who come (and no one comes but that the Father draw them), the elect.

So what in your mind is the worst part of classic Arminian salvation theology then?

 

[JonC]

So what in your mind is the worst part of classic Arminian salvation theology then?

Conditional election.

 

[TCassidy]

Really? That is in complete opposition to the standard understanding of election and God's Sovereignty by reformed folks.

Actually it is exactly in keeping with the Particular Redemption view of the Atonement, Election, and the drawing of God.