Free choice to choose...

[Brother Bob]

Pastor Larry;

Quote:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Actually its Eph 1:4
No it's not. Go back and look at what I responded to. Your post #52 cited 2 Thess 2:13, not Eph 1:4

The "us" and the "we" are not even in 2 Thes 2: (It is I who has been working on one scripture and you another, but I suppose you could almost compare the two scripture. I apoligize)

2 Thessalonians, chapter 2

10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

There was a reason the others were not chosen (because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. ) These were sent strong delusions (because they received not the love of the truth.) It is not because they were not chosen before the foundation of the world that God sent them strong delusions, It is because: they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

There is a reason for these things to happen!!!!


There was a "reason" they were chosen. (belief of the truth) God knows all, who will believe and who will not.

 

[Brother Bob]

AresMan; Please don't take me as being quarrelsome, because I ask questions. I don't mean no disrespect at all to no one. Pastor Larry says I have a preconcieved notion, but I guess we all do, to some extent. We certainly are trying to defend what we believe by what a scripture means. If there were not different minds, then the book called "the Bible" would just be another book.

AresMan;

Then, naturally, since Paul has switched from we to ye, he is talking about the saints in Ephesus following:

Quote:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth [through us the apostles], the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our [mine and your] inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

AresMan; Please commit on :after that ye believed, In that scripture.

Also, Because God can see the end from the beginning, the foundation of the world is no different than the end. He sees all at once and knows who will believe and who will not.

AresMan; Those who consciously and willfully "choose" Christ and believe that His death, burial, and resurrection are efficient to pay for our sins have the wonderful assurance that we have done so because He hath chosen us before the foundation of the world.

He saw Esau sell his birthright, before he was ever born. He sees how we will die now, He does not have to wait as we do. IMO

AresMan; Do you mind if I ask you that "do you believe God can already see how you will die?"

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus [Jews and mostly Greeks], and to the faithful in Christ Jesus [Jews and Greeks]:

AresMan; Why would you say [Jews and Greeks]: , when the Greeks were not the ones who first trusted in Christ.
I can find no where the ones he is talking about, in the first part of Eph., where the Greek are mentioned.

Eph. 1:
1: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8: Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

 

[skypair]

I have the same problem, as I see the truth in both stances. It all depends on who perspective your looking from, God's or Man's...

Well, there's only one reason for that -- they both are true in their respective places! Predestination is true so far as God "planning" what Bill Bright used to call "a wonderful plan for your life" IF you are a believer!! That IS your "election."

But that's where free will comes in -- you have to "opt into" the plan. YOU have to make the covenant with God. Momma can't "sign up" for you! You're not saved because of what Calvin believes. YOU must "get a word from God" yourself. And that's not hard according to God -- Mt 7:7 for heaven's sake! "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Let's don't make this harder than it is, folks! And don't try to tell me that "every one" means only the "elect!"

Let's run by that again -- if you ask for salvation, in accordance with God's word, you will receive. I hope that is simple enough that ANYone (regardless of "label") reading this who hasn't asked will IMMEDIATELY do so!

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

There was a reason the others were not chosen (because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. ) These were sent strong delusions (because they received not the love of the truth.) It is not because they were not chosen before the foundation of the world that God sent them strong delusions, It is because: they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

That's not what the text says though. And that is my contention. You are building your interpretation from your mind rather than from the text. The salvation comes through the setting apart of the Spirit and belief in the truth. The choice of God was for people to salvation.

Again, just read the verse: God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Break it down into grammatical section:

God has chosen you.
Chosen you for salvation
Salvation through sanctificatino of hte Spirit and belief in the truth.

There is a reason for these things to happen!!!!

Yes, salvation happens because we were chosen. Salvation comes through the setting apart of the Spirit and belief in the truth.

There was a "reason" they were chosen. (belief of the truth)

Again, that is not what the text says.

God knows all, who will believe and who will not.

True, but that has no bearing on this discussion.

 

[Brother Bob]

The salvation comes through the setting apart of the Spirit and belief in the truth

That would be "works" salvation if you call believing "works". BTW, I don't.

These were sent strong delusions (because they received not the love of the truth.) There was a reason He sent strong delusions to the unbeliever.

It must have a bearing on this discussion if God seeing some who believe before the foundation, He also saw those who received not the love of truth and sent them strong delusions and sent the ones who believed salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

This scripture has to agree with the rest of the Bible or you have the wrong meaning.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Why did all the above writers know of this prechosen salvation and if they did, why did they give men false hope. Do you really have a logical answer?

 

[Pastor Larry]

That would be "works" salvation if you call believing "works". BTW, I don't.

I am not sure what this means? Salvation comes through the setting apart of the Spirit and belief in the truth. How is that debatable?

It must have a bearing on this discussion if God seeing some who believe before the foundation, He also saw those who received not the love of truth and sent them strong delusions and sent the ones who believed salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

That is not under dispute here. Start a thread on that if you like.

This scripture has to agree with the rest of the Bible or you have the wrong meaning.

I agree.

Why did all the above writers know of this prechosen salvation

Because God revealed truth to them and they wrote it down in Scripture.

...and if they did, why did they give men false hope.

They didn't.

Do you really have a logical answer?

The Bible makes great sense on this topic. I am not sure what the confusion is. You post a long list of verses as if I would disagree with them. I fully and without reservation affir everyone of those verses. I have no problem with any of them.

 

[skypair]

TinyTim

Just a followup to my previous post...

I have a friend who is absolutely schizophrenic about this issue of "free will" vs. "election." But you know what he said? "The more that I exercise my free will toward God, even as a believer, the more I 'see' God's 'election' for me. And the more I trust in my 'election,' the less I seem to exercise my 'free will' toward God. I'm always waiting to see what God is going to do instead of what I am going to do about what God says."

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Pastor Larry;

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Well, as long as you believe the above scripture concerning "atonement", I have no problem with your belief, for I believe that he died for all, but to receive salvation, you must believe.

To be honest with you Pastor Larry, I really haven't kept up with you to know if you hold to Cal or Non-Cal, I have friends on both sides. I just happen to be on the Non-Cal side because that is what I believe. I am not arminium either. I believe OSAS, I also believe that the Spirit must lead one to repentance, but only because you believe enough to follow.

And that "all" means all.

I have not problem with God choosing his children, but I believe its because of "belief", that He chose them. You seem to be right that "you" is the direct object of who He chose.

But this is why they were chose:

2Th 2:12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(They believed the truth apparently). Context!!

Jhn 15:19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

God is omnipresence, time is no hinderance to him from seeing the end from the beginning and knowing all, all the time.

 

[jonnycool]

...for I believe that he died for all, but to receive salvation, you must believe.

I don't know if you have heard these questions before Bob but I haven't heard an answer, maybe you could oblige me.



1. If God loves all men why does He create those who He knows are going to Hell? (Love is kind. 1 Cor 13:4. Love always protects. 1 Cor 13:7.)

2. If God sends people to Hell why does this not break the scripture, 1CO 13:8 Love never fails...?

3. On what basis does one end up in Hell, for unbelief? If it is for anything then scripture is broken again, 1CO 13:5 Love keeps no record of wrongs.

4. Why did Jesus die for those God knew would not accept?
Do you believe He died for your sins or just sins in general?

5. If God is not willing for any to perish why does He create those who He knows are Hell-bound?

6. If God isn't willing for any to perish why did He create Hell?

7. If God isn't willing for any to perish why does He harden people? Because they sin grossly? All the more reason to soften them then isn't it? Hardening is hardly consistant with not willing for any to perish is it? It is in fact counter to not willing, more like very willing and to a greater punishment. Your assertion is useless. ISA 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
More of God's inconsistancy?

That would be "works" salvation if you call believing "works". BTW, I don't.

JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

You are simply wrong. Faith is a work, Jesus said so.

God is omnipresence, time is no hinderance to him from seeing the end from the beginning and knowing all, all the time.

ISA 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

He does not say He sees the end but that He makes known the end from the beginning. He knows the end from the beginning because His purpose will stand and He will make sure it will be as planned by Him. He does as He pleases without our permission.

john.

 

[jonnycool]

And don't try to tell me that "every one" means only the "elect!"

I find it cool that we must ask God not to lead us into temptation don't you skypair? What happens if one doesn't ask? "every one" means only the "elect!"

And, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Is Jesus putting the seal on it. His will is always done.

Matt 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!


john.

 

[tinytim]

Pastor Larry;



To be honest with you Pastor Larry, I really haven't kept up with you to know if you hold to Cal or Non-Cal, I have friends on both sides. I just happen to be on the Non-Cal side because that is what I believe. I am not arminium either. I believe OSAS, I also believe that the Spirit must lead one to repentance, but only because you believe enough to follow.

So we have Cal and non-cal... is there such a thing as "low-cal"? :laugh: :laugh:

That is probably what me and you, Brother Bob are... we are not cal, but are not non-cal... we are inbetween... low-cal!

I guess there is truth in the statement.... "You are what you eat."
I have been eating a lot of "low-cal" stuff lately.. I might actually become tiny! :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Pastor Larry]

To be honest with you Pastor Larry, I really haven't kept up with you to know if you hold to Cal or Non-Cal

I am what most people would call a five point Calvinist.

 

[AresMan]

AresMan; Please don't take me as being quarrelsome, because I ask questions. I don't mean no disrespect at all to no one. Pastor Larry says I have a preconcieved notion, but I guess we all do, to some extent. We certainly are trying to defend what we believe by what a scripture means. If there were not different minds, then the book called "the Bible" would just be another book.

Of course not. This is how we all learn.

AresMan; Please commit on :after that ye believed, In that scripture.

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

I cannot prove this, but I think that Paul was referring to the apostles in this statement.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Since Paul switched from we to ye, the ye obviously is referring directly to the Ephesian saints. I think Paul refers to the apostles who first trusted in Christ, and then refers to the saints in Ephesus who also trusted in Christ after they heard the Gospel preached to them from the apostles.

After that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise means what it says. After one believes unto salvation, he is sealed by the Holy Spirit. Salvation is not appropriated, righteousness is not imputed, and the Holy Spirit does not seal one until he is regenerated in time and exercises faith in the redeeming work of Christ on the Cross.

The thing on which you seem to be stuck is that you, for some reason, think that election precludes faith and faith precludes election. This is not true, and no one here believes that. One implies the other.
1. All elect believe.
2. All believers are elect.
3. If one is elect, he will believe.
4. If one believes, that proves he is elect.
5. If one is not elect, he will not believe.
6. If one does not believe, that proves he is not elect.
7. The promise to the believer is that he has been elected before the foundation of the world.
8. Those who have been elected before the foundation of the world will, at some point in their life, believe.
. . .
172984. Did I mention that all believers are elect?
172985. Did I mention that all the elect believe?
. . .

If your inference of "election" is that one can rely on birth or anything else other than faith, or that in any way one does not imply the other, then your inference is incorrect.

Also, Because God can see the end from the beginning, the foundation of the world is no different than the end. He sees all at once and knows who will believe and who will not.

Of course. Agree.

Those who consciously and willfully "choose" Christ and believe that His death, burial, and resurrection are efficient to pay for our sins have the wonderful assurance that we have done so because He hath chosen us before the foundation of the world.

He saw Esau sell his birthright, before he was ever born. He sees how we will die now, He does not have to wait as we do. IMO

Why would I not agree?

AresMan; Do you mind if I ask you that "do you believe God can already see how you will die?"

Of course you can, and yes, God can see how I will die. If he cannot, He is not God.

AresMan; Why would you say [Jews and Greeks]: , when the Greeks were not the ones who first trusted in Christ.
I can find no where the ones he is talking about, in the first part of Eph., where the Greek are mentioned.

I think I answered this. I think the first trusted in Christ is a reference to Paul and the other apostles, relative to the followup ye reference to the saints in Ephesus.

The Greeks are not mentioned; However, I think I can safely assume that the church in Ephesus (a Greek city) was not an isolated assembly of Jews, but of Jews and Greeks.

I think you misunderstood my interpretations. I was not making any references to "Jews" or "Gentiles" as a whole.
1. The Ephesian church was likely an assembly of Jews and Greeks (probably most were Greeks).
2. Most of the we's refer to Paul and his companions and the saints in Ephesus to whom the epistle was addressed.
3. I assume that the we in v.12 is Paul and his companions.
4. The ye's and you's following are then references to the saints in Ephesus.

 

[jonnycool]

He saw Esau sell his birthright, before he was ever born. He sees how we will die now, He does not have to wait as we do. IMO

The reason Esau went to Hell is not because he sold his birthright, scripture is explicit: Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Do you think we have a birthright Bob?

john.

 

[npetreley]

The reason Esau went to Hell is not because he sold his birthright, scripture is explicit: Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

What I find amusing is that (well, this is MY impression, anyway) Jacob was often a scheming manipulative jerkweed. I don't really know what Esau was like. Regardless, I find it really hard to believe God chose Jacob because He foresaw the wonderful things Jacob was going to do.

In fact, I get the impression that God chose Jacob in part to hammer home the point that He chooses whomever He pleases, and we're in no position to question anything. Well, it kind of says that in the verse, doesn't it? in order that God's purpose in election might stand.

 

[Brother Bob]

Do you think we have a birthright Bob?

john.

They served God in the flesh. If you think we serve God in the flesh, then maybe you have one.
I believe you "must believe that Jesus is the Christ from the heart" to be saved, or have a "new birth". Hope that helps.

Do you think God hated Esau without a cause? God did know that Jacob would become a great nation before he was born. There is absolutely nothing that God does not know, including Esau selling his birthright before he was born and had did it.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnycool
The reason Esau went to Hell is not because he sold his birthright, scripture is explicit: Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."


What I find amusing is that (well, this is MY impression, anyway) Jacob was often a scheming manipulative jerkweed. I don't really know what Esau was like. Regardless, I find it really hard to believe God chose Jacob because He foresaw the wonderful things Jacob was going to do.

In fact, I get the impression that God chose Jacob in part to hammer home the point that He chooses whomever He pleases, and we're in no position to question anything. Well, it kind of says that in the verse, doesn't it? in order that God's purpose in election might stand.

Regardless of which, God foreknew, didn't He?

 

[Brother Bob]

AresMan;

Thanks for your answers and I mostly agree with all you said. There are ways of saying:
1. The elect believe
2. The believers are the elect

Of course they are and this is one way of not saying that "all" men have a chance for salvation or saying "all" men have a right to salvation.

I still appreciate your answers and agree for the most part. I do believe that "all men have a choice to do good or evil", "believe or disbelieve". I say it without any attachments at all.

I think you hold to the Cal position, but not sure. You see, we Old Regular Baptist, used to take the Cal position, until 1893 when they began to preach babies in hell and then we split from them.

If your inference of "election" is that one can rely on birth or anything else other than faith, or that in any way one does not imply the other, then your inference is incorrect.

No, I know that faith is the only way we can please God.

God Bless,

 

[Brother Bob]

So we have Cal and non-cal... is there such a thing as "low-cal"? :laugh: :laugh:

That is probably what me and you, Brother Bob are... we are not cal, but are not non-cal... we are inbetween... low-cal!

I guess there is truth in the statement.... "You are what you eat."
I have been eating a lot of "low-cal" stuff lately.. I might actually become tiny! :laugh: __________________

Finally!!! we find out what we are.

 

[tinytim]

Finally!!! we find out what we are.

Yeah, finally... I always knew we were more alike than different.. must be an Appalachian thing... I mean "Thang"!