Free Will and Loss of Salvation

[agedman]

L.A. AND T.D is now hyper????????

Are they not?

Do not Hyper Calvinists cling to the extreme on both of these and doing so present that God doesn't really need mission work to spread the redemption story, for any that have, are, and will be saved already have, are, and will be saved.

 

[Reynolds]

Are they not?

Do not Hyper Calvinists cling to the extreme on both of these and doing so present that God doesn't really need mission work to spread the redemption story, for any that have, are, and will be saved already have, are, and will be saved.

Neither is extreme. TD is even held by Arminians. How can you be extreme on total depravity. Total is total. How can you be more extreme than that?

 

[agedman]

Neither is extreme. TD is even held by Arminians. How can you be extreme on total depravity. Total is total. How can you be more extreme than that?

I suppose that one may have degrees of depravity that are more tolerable then others. Perhaps this is evidenced when the Lord spoke of cities that would be more tolerable in the day of judgement then others, or perhaps the depth of wickedness found in some cities compared with others.

For some, the depravity is total in the sense that there is nothing that can attain righteousness found within a person. That is meant by those who hold to total incapability.

For some, the depravity is that there is nothing good can be found, and there are verses that would hold to that thinking.

For some, there is a mixture, that is in some people, their thoughts, life, and body carry the stench of sin, while in other people they may be clean cut, well mannered, disciplined thought life, "know how to give good gifts," and yet still unbelievers.

What I mean by the extreme, is those who lump all folks into the same bag . Again, the Scriptures do speak of this type, and that all are certainly desperately wicked (from Jeremiah telling of the condition of the heart as being beyond cure).

"All have sinned and come short ..." is a statement of measurement, not a statement of the capacity to measure.

The dash between the date of life and death is horizontal. It cannot measure upwards, it is incapable. So no matter the good, the line remains horizontal.

God placed a vertical line across the horizontal not only as a cross but a plus. Believers have that necessary to measure up, not by their horizontal effort, but by God placing that which the believer lacks.

Didn't mean to be wandering in this post.

 

[AustinC]

I suppose that one may have degrees of depravity that are more tolerable then others. Perhaps this is evidenced when the Lord spoke of cities that would be more tolerable in the day of judgement then others, or perhaps the depth of wickedness found in some cities compared with others.

For some, the depravity is total in the sense that there is nothing that can attain righteousness found within a person. That is meant by those who hold to total incapability.

For some, the depravity is that there is nothing good can be found, and there are verses that would hold to that thinking.

For some, there is a mixture, that is in some people, their thoughts, life, and body carry the stench of sin, while in other people they may be clean cut, well mannered, disciplined thought life, "know how to give good gifts," and yet still unbelievers.

What I mean by the extreme, is those who lump all folks into the same bag . Again, the Scriptures do speak of this type, and that all are certainly desperately wicked (from Jeremiah telling of the condition of the heart as being beyond cure).

"All have sinned and come short ..." is a statement of measurement, not a statement of the capacity to measure.

The dash between the date of life and death is horizontal. It cannot measure upwards, it is incapable. So no matter the good, the line remains horizontal.

God placed a vertical line across the horizontal not only as a cross but a plus. Believers have that necessary to measure up, not by their horizontal effort, but by God placing that which the believer lacks.

Didn't mean to be wandering in this post.

Degrees of depravity? Perhaps in depth, but not in width or area. Every person is corrupt (depraved). You can find no area in our being that has not been touched by corruption. The virus of sin is found everywhere. It is total.

 

[agedman]

Degrees of depravity? Perhaps in depth, but not in width or area. Every person is corrupt (depraved). You can find no area in our being that has not been touched by corruption. The virus of sin is found everywhere. It is total.

I agree.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I have a question for my free will advocates. Do you believe we can lose our salvation? If not, does that not negate your notion of free will?

Libertarian Free Will can be affirmed while simultaneously holding to Perseverence of the Saints or a "Once saved always saved" Theology.

One option is a Molinist account of Libertarian Freedom which would be logically consistent with both beliefs.
It is possible.
As a liner note: I think these discussions go awry quickly when we use the term "lose" your Salvation.

"Lose" implies an accident or an unintentional event....like sinning so much that God takes it away or something vs. making a conscious choice to abandon the faith. They are separate ideas.

Perhaps, a once genuine believer, could make a conscious choice to abandon the faith....but that is not best described as "losing" anything. It would be abandoning or "making shipwreck" of their faith or something else. I think this discussion needs to distinguish between what is being debated at that point.
This is where I think a lot of this discussion becomes people talking past one another.
That being said: I do think that Libertarian Free Will and "Once-Saved-Always-Saved" can be logically believed given a Molinist account of Scripture.
True or not, it is logically consistent as far as I can tell.

 

[Reynolds]

I suppose that one may have degrees of depravity that are more tolerable then others. Perhaps this is evidenced when the Lord spoke of cities that would be more tolerable in the day of judgement then others, or perhaps the depth of wickedness found in some cities compared with others.

For some, the depravity is total in the sense that there is nothing that can attain righteousness found within a person. That is meant by those who hold to total incapability.

For some, the depravity is that there is nothing good can be found, and there are verses that would hold to that thinking.

For some, there is a mixture, that is in some people, their thoughts, life, and body carry the stench of sin, while in other people they may be clean cut, well mannered, disciplined thought life, "know how to give good gifts," and yet still unbelievers.

What I mean by the extreme, is those who lump all folks into the same bag . Again, the Scriptures do speak of this type, and that all are certainly desperately wicked (from Jeremiah telling of the condition of the heart as being beyond cure).

"All have sinned and come short ..." is a statement of measurement, not a statement of the capacity to measure.

The dash between the date of life and death is horizontal. It cannot measure upwards, it is incapable. So no matter the good, the line remains horizontal.

God placed a vertical line across the horizontal not only as a cross but a plus. Believers have that necessary to measure up, not by their horizontal effort, but by God placing that which the believer lacks.

Didn't mean to be wandering in this post.

There is nothing "good" outside God. A man who has not been regenerated has no good in him. None. No amount whatsoever. As a Traditional Arminian where I differ from a Calvinist is that I believe God can temporarily enlighten the total depraved man without regenerating him.

 

[Reformed]

Are they not?

Do not Hyper Calvinists cling to the extreme on both of these and doing so present that God doesn't really need mission work to spread the redemption story, for any that have, are, and will be saved already have, are, and will be saved.

God has chosen the means of salvation as well as the number of the Elect. It has nothing to do with whether God needs anything, for we all know that God needs nothing.

 

[Silverhair]

Some on this board advocate for an absolute free will as if we are not in bondage to sin and because of that will not choose Christ without a change. How then can those same people hold to no loss of salvation? It totally negates that idea of free will. If you cannot choose to leave your salvation, by their explanation of free will, the will is not free.

You must be the that advocates for an absolute free will as you keep bring it up all the time. God has given man a free will but not the absolute free will that you seem to want. I have pointed out the error in your thinking a number of times but it does not seem to get through to you.

 

[Reformed1689]

You must be the that advocates for an absolute free will as you keep bring it up all the time. God has given man a free will but not the absolute free will that you seem to want. I have pointed out the error in your thinking a number of times but it does not seem to get through to you.

So are you going to address the topic or keep talking nonsense?

 

[Van]

I have a question for my free will advocates. Do you believe we can lose our salvation? If not, does that not negate your notion of free will?

Yet another false doctrine thread! Can anyone placed by God into Christ jump ship? Of course not. Does that mean someone could not ponder that thought? Nope. We operate within the confines God allows, thus we have limits to our will. Scripture says once we are actually "born anew" our faith is protected such that we will always love Christ. (See 1 Peter 1:3-5)

And pay no attention to the idea that either we either are unable to have autonomous thoughts, or we can have no limits imposed by God on our autonomous thoughts. Both those false views of silly.

 

[Reformed1689]

Yet another false doctrine thread! Can anyone placed by God into Christ jump ship? Of course not. Does that mean someone could not ponder that thought? Nope. We operate within the confines God allows, thus we have limits to our will. Scripture says once we are actually "born anew" our faith is protected such that we will always love Christ. (See 1 Peter 1:3-5)

And pay no attention to the idea that either we either are unable to have autonomous thoughts, or we can have no limits imposed by God on our autonomous thoughts. Both those false views of silly.

And Van just proved my point. Free will in the absolute sense does not exist.

 

[Van]

And Van just proved my point. Free will in the absolute sense does not exist.

Your point is mindless twaddle. The usual strawman construct of mindless screed foisted upon the sheep by wolves in sheep's clothing.

Can anyone placed by God into Christ jump ship? Of course not. Does that mean someone could not ponder that thought? Nope. We operate within the confines God allows, thus we have limits to our will. Scripture says once we are actually "born anew" our faith is protected such that we will always love Christ. (See 1 Peter 1:3-5)

And pay no attention to the idea that either we either are unable to have autonomous thoughts, or we can have no limits imposed by God on our autonomous thoughts. Both those false views of silly, the mindless screed of false teachers.

 

[Reformed1689]

Your point is mindless twaddle. The usual strawman construct of mindless screed foisted upon the sheep by wolves in sheep's clothing.

Can anyone placed by God into Christ jump ship? Of course not. Does that mean someone could not ponder that thought? Nope. We operate within the confines God allows, thus we have limits to our will. Scripture says once we are actually "born anew" our faith is protected such that we will always love Christ. (See 1 Peter 1:3-5)

And pay no attention to the idea that either we either are unable to have autonomous thoughts, or we can have no limits imposed by God on our autonomous thoughts. Both those false views of silly, the mindless screed of false teachers.

And what does pondering the thought have to do with anything? Oh wait, nothing.

 

[Van]

And what does pondering the thought have to do with anything? Oh wait, nothing.

Yet another denial of truth. Can anyone placed by God into Christ jump ship? Of course not. Does that mean someone could not ponder that thought? Nope. We operate within the confines God allows, thus we have limits to our will. Scripture says once we are actually "born anew" our faith is protected such that we will always love Christ. (See 1 Peter 1:3-5)

And pay no attention to the idea that either we either are unable to have autonomous thoughts, or we can have no limits imposed by God on our autonomous thoughts. Both those false views of silly, the mindless screed of false teachers.

 

[agedman]

There is nothing "good" outside God. A man who has not been regenerated has no good in him. None. No amount whatsoever. As a Traditional Arminian where I differ from a Calvinist is that I believe God can temporarily enlighten the total depraved man without regenerating him.

By “good” you must not forget the Lord’s statement, “…you know how to give good gifts…”.

What cannot be attained is God’s righteousness, though I certainly have met many self righteous people.

The human capacity to recognize “good” and distinguish what is better and best is diminished the more one is enslaved to sin and ungodly life choices. “Minds darkened” signifies there is a process of darkening and why believers are to “renew” their minds by heeding to the scripture for cleansing.

 

[Reformed1689]

Yet another denial of truth. Can anyone placed by God into Christ jump ship? Of course not. Does that mean someone could not ponder that thought? Nope. We operate within the confines God allows, thus we have limits to our will. Scripture says once we are actually "born anew" our faith is protected such that we will always love Christ. (See 1 Peter 1:3-5)

And pay no attention to the idea that either we either are unable to have autonomous thoughts, or we can have no limits imposed by God on our autonomous thoughts. Both those false views of silly, the mindless screed of false teachers.

lol Van you obviously did not read and are just spewing your heart of hatred at this point.

 

[Van]

lol Van you obviously did not read and are just spewing your heart of hatred at this point.

Yet another false charge, off topic, yet condoned. Can anyone placed by God into Christ jump ship? Of course not. Does that mean someone could not ponder that thought? Nope. We operate within the confines God allows, thus we have limits to our will. Scripture says once we are actually "born anew" our faith is protected such that we will always love Christ. (See 1 Peter 1:3-5)

And pay no attention to the idea that either we either are unable to have autonomous thoughts, or we can have no limits imposed by God on our autonomous thoughts. Both those false views are silly, the mindless screed of false teachers.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Eternal security is not Biblical. It was introduced in the BF&M of 1963. It's not held to be true by any other Christian denomination. One good text for this is John 15:1-6.

 

[AustinC]

Eternal security is not Biblical. It was introduced in the BF&M of 1963. It's not held to be true by any other Christian denomination. One good text for this is John 15:1-6.

Explain please:

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
~ John 15:1-6