Featured Free Will and Loss of Salvation

I did, you rejected it.
Since you will not answer my question and cannot understand my answer to your question ... we are probably finished with this conversation.

 

Did you not ask those who do not believe one can lose their salvation (like me) how this thinking (that salvation is eternally secure) does not negate free will?

 

You did not answer the question if Job lost his faith or it grew. you took me to the example of two people who got stones, one who died, and one who did not. and how it relates.

Its ok.. You do not have to answer. no one is trying to force you.

Here I will answer you..

Job did not lose faith. It does not matter what his friend's thought. What matters is the truth. If Job stopped believing in God when God came to talk to him he would have ignored him Are you going to talk to something you do not believe in? Of course not!

Did Job have his faith tested? Oh yeah! And eventually in the end, His faith was stronger than it was before God tested him.

But did he lose it?

NO!

 

That's a false misnomer though.

If A person who is truly saved would never lose faith. then the argument is mute.

Our salvation is not based on our faithfulness, Its based on Gods..

Our faith is based on our hope.. The only reason to lose faith is to lose hope. The only reason we would lose hope in God is if he proves untrustworthy..

 

… and he is presenting a “No true Scotsman” fallacy (and doesn’t care about your logical argument).

 

Why would anyone want to give up being saved? Exodus 32:31-32, ". . . And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. . . ."
Romans 9:2-3, ". . . That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh. . . ."

 

But that really isn't answering the question.

Besides, how does one who begins with a fleshly hope and proclaims it as faith actually know for certain that they really were saved?

Would the flesh provide assurance? Maybe they had some emotionalism experience, or indigestion? Is that good enough to change hope to assurance?

Maybe they studied the Scriptures and read some verses to support some mental gymnastics, but would that be of benefit?

If faith is of the flesh, can not then such faith be swayed by discussion, what is pleasant to the ears, or who sounds like God?

Why would God hold onto someone who didn't want to be held on to?

Christ didn't in the earthly ministry did He? Is there evidence that He did?

Did He not allow those who turned away from Him to depart without comment other than asking if the core group was also going, too?

So, it is not God's faithfulness that is in question, nor the ability of God. Rather, the presentation of an example where God overruled the will of humankind to turn away from Him.

If one looses faith, that which was begun originally in the flesh as some kind of "hope" why can they not then at a later time turn away from such by placing hope in a different manner or object?

Typical Baptists would certainly claim that their initial "profession of faith" was good enough.


Why? I don't see the Scriptures supporting such an assumption, do you?

 

And I just pointed out the logical inconsistency of your attempt to prove a logical inconsistency of the view your trying to argue against.

I think You would be better off trying a different argument to support your position.

 

actually I do care about his argument.

However, his argument is not logical. Well to those outside of those trying to prove that we are not free will agents.

His argument is illogical. unless he can show HOW or WHY God will fail people to make it to the point they no longer even believe in God.

 

How is one who only has fleshly hope even saved to begin with? I can not find where anyone who has fleshy hope has ever been saved. In fact. If I remember right, Paul called them fools..

see here you go with the second false argument,

That a persons faith comes from the flesh. This is not so. The bible says a persons faith comes from God. It is him through creation shows himself (rom 1) It is him through his word that he tells us to search diligently, it is him through his people who spread the word. It is him through life circumstances are brought to a point they must make a decision.

The tax collector did not will himself to salvation
The tax collector did not come to the point he called out to Christ in his flesh
The tax collector did not depend on the flesh to save himself (he would have never come to this point if he did)
the tax collector became poor in spirit. And as Jesus said, he entered the kingdom.

you don't win arguments by pointing out illogical fallacies and making up things about others which do not make any sense

 

That depends on the dispensation. You cannot lose it in the church age. You can lose it after the church age.
How would that negate the notion of free will?

 

George, what passage in the Bible supports your assertion?

In order for your assertion to be true, your assumption must be true. First, you need to prove your assumption, otherwise your assertion cannot be true.

I am glad to see you call free will a "notion." It is a notion. It is not supported by exegesis. It can only be a "notion" by use of eisegesis.

 

I have addressed the op as written.

You have failed to address my counter point to.

I believe in free will. I also believe in eternal security. Your question was addressed specifically to people like me.

I answered your question.

you could own up to the point you do not agree with my answer. then address why. but what you can not do is say I have failed to address your question or tell me to basically shut up.

 

lets see

1. You did not use the word ABSOLUTE.
2. You spoke to me, a free will advocate (agent or however you want to put it)
3. You spoke to me about believing we can NOT lose our salvation
4. You asked, does that not NEGATE my notion of free will.

you sir are not even sure of your own question.