free will vs. election???????

[saturneptune]

I've been a WHAT? against you?...........Grow a pair Icon.

That is why they call him Superman on the road. He is the man of steel.

 

[Herald]

The new poster has an old agenda. He refuses to own up to it. Seems acceptable to you guys....it is not aceptable to me. Also you have been a false witness against me. It has been exposed.

Icon,

You have been spot on about the character of the faux-Dr. and also HoS. I actually admire you for hanging in their with them. You have much more patience and tolerance than I do. The faux-Dr. is just that. He cheapens the value of the ink on his self-bequeathed degree. HoS? There is no depth that he is not willing to sink to. The good news is that there is always hope that God will grant repentance. Short of that I cannot read their posts anymore and have taken steps to assure that.

Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[saturneptune]

wrong thread, my mistake

 

[Herald]

A few of the posters on this thread post like there is a difference between them and Cain before salvation. Cain was a sinner, so was everyone on this thread. I assume all posters are saved, so since salvation, all posters are now like Abel. We all got there the same way, grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The Lord has got to shake His head when we post an entire thread in the mindset of our opinion of what the word "fair" means. We do not begin to understand the eternal or the depths of God. Our thoughts are not God's thoughts. The theme runs through the thread, implied or not, that it is not "fair" for God to have chosen Abel and not Cain, as Cain did not have a "chance." All these conclusions come from flawed humans, like myself. What we are doing is putting God in a box, with the method He must be "fair" and give everyone a "chance." On the other side of the arugment, God is put in a box saying Cain had a "chance" even if not chosen, and that is "fair."

The point is we are not the Creator, but the created. It is a miracle we are here to type some of this nonsense. The created does not explain what the Creator does or how. The Creator lets the created know what He wants to. In our case, God chose love, mercy, grace, and forgiveness as a way for sinful man to be eternally with Him. Everyone of us deserve to be Cain, and only God in His love makes any of us Abel. How He does that is His business. No man comes to the Father than by Jesus Christ, and no man responds to the Gospel except by a touch from the same God in the form of the Holy Spirit. If God only saved one person in history, it would be more than we deserved. I see His choosing is quite abundent, as there are at least ten saved in this one thread.

We will never understand the depths of God's love this side of eternity. One thing that would be wise IMO, is to take words like fair and chance, and find different terms for God's love. Cain or Abel??? Same could be said for Issac instead of Ishamel, Jacob instead of Esau, David instead of Saul, the eleven disciples instead of Judas, Pharoah had no "chance"??? Annias and Saphira had no "chance" not "fair", Noah's family vs the rest of the world, "not fair" ???? Job, cant even figure that one out, can you?

Whatever knowledge each of you have to post was given to you from God. He, in His eternal purposes, saved each one of you. We should be thankful for what we have, and praise Him for it. Maybe if we did more of that and less debating on how it was accomplished, we would be clearer in our understanding of the Almighty.

SN,

Well all of us come into right standing with God the same way; through the blood. All true Christians were once vile sinners who deserved nothing but wrath and indignation (1 Cor. 6:11). If God were truly "fair" He would do one of two things: 1. Save everybody 2. Condemn everybody. It is obvious to most on this board that God does not save everybody. Universalism makes a mockery of Christ's death. But praise be to God that He does not condemn everybody. He shows great mercy and grace to some. Is that fair? By human standards, no. God is not fair. God is holy. But He is also merciful and gracious. We often lose sight of that because we want to be the captains of our own ship.

 

[saturneptune]

SN,

Well all of us come into right standing with God the same way; through the blood. All true Christians were once vile sinners who deserved nothing but wrath and indignation (1 Cor. 6:11). If God were truly "fair" He would do one of two things: 1. Save everybody 2. Condemn everybody. It is obvious to most on this board that God does not save everybody. Universalism makes a mockery of Christ's death. But praise be to God that He does not condemn everybody. He shows great mercy and grace to some. Is that fair? By human standards, no. God is not fair. God is holy. But He is also merciful and gracious. We often lose sight of that because we want to be the captains of our own ship.

Thanks for your response.

 

[preacher4truth]

The new poster has an old agenda. He refuses to own up to it. Seems acceptable to you guys....it is not aceptable to me. Also you have been a false witness against me. It has been exposed.

Those two are birds of feather -- like attracts like -- both love lying and making lies. When one comes in to defend outright lies it tells you more about his walk than his words can ever undo. They can't even blush or feel shame over what they've engaged in. Hmmmmm...

Leave them alone and they'll both fall in the ditch together.

 

[DrJamesAch]

You are angry.......because I was absolutely corrected by a woman.

You feel a sense of RAGE in your nasty little heart because I listened to the correction of a woman over an above YOU.

Your Misoginy is YOUR problem........not mine.........

AMY............explained where I was wrong..........and YOU couldn't.

Amy is the Deborah to YOU ..............you are the sissy Barak.

You are "Barak".........Amy is "Deborah".........

And Amy is twice the man either YOU or I am in this debate.

Quit while you are ahead......

Arrogance. Sheer Arrogance.

Not too far back he was defending HWs terminologies, once the majority crowd started gathering against HW, then P4T switchied gears and compelled him to be circumcised LOL

 

[awaken]

all have the chance to have the indwelling spirit--but they refuse because they want sin and are not willing to have God rule over them.

Cain was indeed able to do the right thing--but he chose to do evil instead
Again the problem is not that men don't have the ability to choose to do right but that man doesn't want to do right neither is man willing to have God over him.this takes the work of God to make man willing in the day of God's Power and cause the man to want God.

Psalm 80-19::TURN us again,O Lord God of hosts,CAUSE thy face to shine and we shall be saved.

Without God doing the work man is not willing to be turned and will not be turned--God causes man to turn and causes his face to shine so that man might be saved.

Wouldn't the death on the cross be what turn?

 

[DrJamesAch]

Icon,

You have been spot on about the character of the faux-Dr. and also HoS. I actually admire you for hanging in their with them. You have much more patience and tolerance than I do. The faux-Dr. is just that. He cheapens the value of the ink on his self-bequeathed degree. HoS? There is no depth that he is not willing to sink to. The good news is that there is always hope that God will grant repentance. Short of that I cannot read their posts anymore and have taken steps to assure that.

Keep fighting the good fight.

Speaking of birds of a feather:applause:

 

[awaken]

God condemned Cain because of cains wickedness--Cain chose to do wickedly.Was Cain's fault not God's.

I agree it was Cain's choice! But are you saying that God softened/changed Abels heart and not Cain's?

 

[webdog]

WD,

He will benefit from studying the Lords work of redemption.he will have whatever view God allows him to.that is between him and God.
I post what i know to be true. he should believe what he believes before god to whom he is accountable ...same as you and I:wavey:

There really is no point in even debating or discussing these things for those who hold this view, in fact if he and I haven't been sovereignly granted or allowed to believe your view, you are rebelling by going against God's plan for us in trying to convince us.

In reality all determinists who discuss the topic truly believe in contra causal free will

 

[webdog]

The man with one talent did not produce anything which proves he was not really a saint. There are many people who "play" the Christian but if they don't have any spiritual fruit, then they really were never a Christian to begin with. The lack of fruit proves this.
As I said, this is a parable. It is a fictional story with a spiritual truth behind it. Jesus is showing the difference between a true believer and a hypocrite. And he is speaking to Jews of which the Pharisees were the biggest hypocrites of all. They gave the appearance of righteousness but were nothing more than white washed tombs, and as such produced no spiritual fruit. That is the purpose of this parable. Jesus never taught that saints go to hell.

Not trying say the servant was saved, but isn't repentance and faith in Christ in itself fruit?

 

[webdog]

Icon,

You have been spot on about the character of the faux-Dr. and also HoS. I actually admire you for hanging in their with them. You have much more patience and tolerance than I do. The faux-Dr. is just that. He cheapens the value of the ink on his self-bequeathed degree. HoS? There is no depth that he is not willing to sink to. The good news is that there is always hope that God will grant repentance. Short of that I cannot read their posts anymore and have taken steps to assure that.

Keep fighting the good fight.

This could have been sent via PM...meaning you are in the same mud you accuse others of slinging. Self righteous hypocricy at its finest.

 

[Amy.G]

Not trying say the servant was saved, but isn't repentance and faith in Christ in itself fruit?

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[webdog]

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

So you agree?

 

[DrJamesAch]

There really is no point in even debating or discussing these things for those who hold this view, in fact if he and I haven't been sovereignly granted or allowed to believe your view, you are rebelling by going against God's plan for us in trying to convince us.

In reality all determinists who discuss the topic truly believe in contra causal free will

Be careful, when I said something like that I was accused of blasphemy

 

[DrJamesAch]

Not trying say the servant was saved, but isn't repentance and faith in Christ in itself fruit?

How long does one have to have sin present until one determines that a professed believe wasn't/isn't "saved in the first place"? Does a slip of the tongue prove it? Twenty Four hours? One week? One month? A Year? Denying Christ 3 times? Arguing with God about eating pork? Disobeying the Holy Spirit when told not to go to Jerusalem for a feast? Compelling Gentiles to be circumcised?

"And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds" 2 Peter 2:7-8

Lot is hardly the example of a fruit-bearing believer. The only thing he had in common with Abraham was that He believed in the same God Abraham did.

I would even venture to say that this argument could be used against MOST in this forum, myself included, in the repetition of heated debates:

"For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:" 2 Cor 12:20

"But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient," 2 Timothy 2:23-24

" Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time. Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man." Colossians 4:5

"Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks." Eph 5:4

Some have done this for years on the forums. Is that evidence that they are not saved?

 

[awaken]

I do not see the transmission of Total Inability toward God conveyed in the text of Genesis. I still see them interacting with God!

In Rom. 5 and 1 Cor. 15 I do not see a thing about Total Inability. Nowhere are we told that an invincible tendency to resist God was imparted to the race through the offense of one. If there were a place we would expect to find the doctrine, it would be in one of those passages dealing with the relationship between Adam and his descendants. But there is not a trace of such teaching there.

There are other curses listed. God pronounced the death sentence, which He defined as a return to the dust (Gen. 3:19).

God said that "thorns and thistles" would be there to make toil more difficult (v.18). He told the woman that she must endure great pain in childbearing (v.16). Both of these curses are trivial compared to what would be the most debilitating curse of all: the removal of all ability to respond to God.

 

[Amy.G]

So you agree?

No. Repentance is not listed as a fruit of the spirit. It's clear the wicked servant did not repent as he accused the Lord of being wicked.

 

[webdog]

I do not see the transmission of Total Inability toward God conveyed in the text of Genesis. I still see them interacting with God!

In Rom. 5 and 1 Cor. 15 I do not see a thing about Total Inability. Nowhere are we told that an invincible tendency to resist God was imparted to the race through the offense of one. If there were a place we would expect to find the doctrine, it would be in one of those passages dealing with the relationship between Adam and his descendants. But there is not a trace of such teaching there.

There are other curses listed. God pronounced the death sentence, which He defined as a return to the dust (Gen. 3:19).

God said that "thorns and thistles" would be there to make toil more difficult (v.18). He told the woman that she must endure great pain in childbearing (v.16). Both of these curses are trivial compared to what would be the most debilitating curse of all: the removal of all ability to respond to God.

You are correct...you do not see it...because it isn't there

Me and iconoclast disagree on quite a bit, but I would take his advice on believing what you currently believe :thumbsup: