free will vs. election???????

[Iconoclast]

Wow! After reading 10 pages....I still do not understand! Maybe I will just wait on the Holy Spirit to teach me!

Take your time..no rush.There is much to study.believe what you believe until God opens up the scripture.....Always pray to be kept in the truth to hear Jesus speak in scripture...

 

[Amy.G]

so you are saying all men are given talents by god and are expected to use them for the glory of god and be rewarded according how they use them when he returns ?

No. All saints are given spiritual gifts to be used to the glory of God. The parable of the soils explains that all believers will produce fruit, but at varying amounts. In the parable of the talents, believers are given gifts and all but the wicked, worthless servant multiply what the Lord has given them. But the servant that was given one talent did not multiply it (or produce fruit), proving that he was not a believer but instead a hypocrite. He is the only one thrown into outer darkness (hell) because ALL true believers WILL produce fruit whether a little or a lot.

 

[webdog]

Take your time..no rush.There is much to study.believe what you believe until God opens up the scripture.....Always pray to be kept in the truth to hear Jesus speak in scripture...

...and if that never aligns with your view? Does he even have a choice in the matter? Didn't you say God has to grant 'ears to hear'?

 

[awaken]

Could it be both???

Mankind is fallen and would never choose to believe in Jesus unless God first initiates it, but after God begins drawing us to Jesus He allows us to exercise our free will in whether or not to choose to believe in Jesus.

What I see in Scripture is that a person's salvation depends on God (as some claim) and the person's salvation depends on his free will decision (as some claim). These truths are both taught in Scripture, and they are held in tension with each other just as the two truths that Jesus is 100% God and 100% human are both taught in Scripture and are held in tension with each other. Whether or not we can grasp these "contradictory" truths is not the issue, the issue boils down to the fact that these "contradictory" truths are clearly taught in Scripture. God's ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts! (Isaiah 55:8-9).

 

[HisWitness]

No. All saints are given spiritual gifts to be used to the glory of God. The parable of the soils explains that all believers will produce fruit, but at varying amounts. In the parable of the talents, believers are given gifts and all but the wicked, worthless servant multiply what the Lord has given them. But the servant that was given one talent did not multiply it (or produce fruit), proving that he was not a believer but instead a hypocrite. He is the only one thrown into outer darkness (hell) because ALL true believers WILL produce fruit whether a little or a lot.

im sorry but you just said that saints were given talents and gifts--and then turn around and say the servant with 1 talent was not a Saint

Need to clarify yourself better--all 3 were saints with talents(Gifts) all 3 were judged at the Lord's return--judgement seat of Christ(which is only for Saints)

in 1st Corinthians Paul speaks of works being tried by FIRE and burning the wood,hay,stubble works of Saints--so there is more examples even than these of this very same thing:godisgood::godisgood:

 

[Iconoclast]

...and if that never aligns with your view? Does he even have a choice in the matter? Didn't you say God has to grant 'ears to hear'?

WD,

He will benefit from studying the Lords work of redemption.he will have whatever view God allows him to.that is between him and God.
I post what i know to be true. he should believe what he believes before god to whom he is accountable ...same as you and I:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

Could it be both???

Mankind is fallen and would never choose to believe in Jesus unless God first initiates it, but after God begins drawing us to Jesus He allows us to exercise our free will in whether or not to choose to believe in Jesus.

What I see in Scripture is that a person's salvation depends on God (as some claim) and the person's salvation depends on his free will decision (as some claim). These truths are both taught in Scripture, and they are held in tension with each other just as the two truths that Jesus is 100% God and 100% human are both taught in Scripture and are held in tension with each other. Whether or not we can grasp these "contradictory" truths is not the issue, the issue boils down to the fact that these "contradictory" truths are clearly taught in Scripture. God's ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts! (Isaiah 55:8-9).

All men are responsible to worship God.God has a plan and purpose dealing with mankind by way of his covenant promise.keep studying.There is much to look at...enjoy it!

 

[Amy.G]

im sorry but you just said that saints were given talents and gifts--and then turn around and say the servant with 1 talent was not a Saint

Need to clarify yourself better--all 3 were saints with talents(Gifts) all 3 were judged at the Lord's return--judgement seat of Christ(which is only for Saints)

in 1st Corinthians Paul speaks of works being tried by FIRE and burning the wood,hay,stubble works of Saints--so there is more examples even than these of this very same thing:godisgood::godisgood:

The man with one talent did not produce anything which proves he was not really a saint. There are many people who "play" the Christian but if they don't have any spiritual fruit, then they really were never a Christian to begin with. The lack of fruit proves this.
As I said, this is a parable. It is a fictional story with a spiritual truth behind it. Jesus is showing the difference between a true believer and a hypocrite. And he is speaking to Jews of which the Pharisees were the biggest hypocrites of all. They gave the appearance of righteousness but were nothing more than white washed tombs, and as such produced no spiritual fruit. That is the purpose of this parable. Jesus never taught that saints go to hell.

 

[HisWitness]

Could it be both???

Mankind is fallen and would never choose to believe in Jesus unless God first initiates it, but after God begins drawing us to Jesus He allows us to exercise our free will in whether or not to choose to believe in Jesus.

What I see in Scripture is that a person's salvation depends on God (as some claim) and the person's salvation depends on his free will decision (as some claim). These truths are both taught in Scripture, and they are held in tension with each other just as the two truths that Jesus is 100% God and 100% human are both taught in Scripture and are held in tension with each other. Whether or not we can grasp these "contradictory" truths is not the issue, the issue boils down to the fact that these "contradictory" truths are clearly taught in Scripture. God's ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts! (Isaiah 55:8-9).

man in his condition is using his free will to choose sin-pleasing the flesh is what men love---not the ways of God or the truth of God--men will always use their free will to choose evil--that's who men are is Evil--we cant use the excuse at judgement that we were bound and could not do anything--that's a cop out--we willfully choose to sin with our will and that is what men love--Only God can change men to wanting good and God's ways over his own fleshly desires and pleasures--Only God can enable men to use that free will to choose Christ.

man is in love with sin.the world,fleshly pleasures and he will use his free will everytime to choose this--because that's who he is:godisgood::godisgood:

So all in all its MAN'S fault and not God's that he is in that shape.

 

[HisWitness]

The man with one talent did not produce anything which proves he was not really a saint. There are many people who "play" the Christian but if they don't have any spiritual fruit, then they really were never a Christian to begin with. The lack of fruit proves this.
As I said, this is a parable. It is a fictional story with a spiritual truth behind it. Jesus is showing the difference between a true believer and a hypocrite. And he is speaking to Jews of which the Pharisees were the biggest hypocrites of all. They gave the appearance of righteousness but were nothing more than white washed tombs, and as such produced no spiritual fruit. That is the purpose of this parable. Jesus never taught that saints go to hell.

what about the saints that will lose all their rewards and their works burnt up by the FIRE--are they lost because they didn't do right works ?

and also note that these very same saints will be saved so as by the FIRE that burnt their works up ??

 

[awaken]

Is the transmission of Total inability toward God in the text in Genesis?

I see Adam, Eve and Cain and Abel still able to commune with God, right?

 

[HisWitness]

The man with one talent did not produce anything which proves he was not really a saint. There are many people who "play" the Christian but if they don't have any spiritual fruit, then they really were never a Christian to begin with. The lack of fruit proves this.
As I said, this is a parable. It is a fictional story with a spiritual truth behind it. Jesus is showing the difference between a true believer and a hypocrite. And he is speaking to Jews of which the Pharisees were the biggest hypocrites of all. They gave the appearance of righteousness but were nothing more than white washed tombs, and as such produced no spiritual fruit. That is the purpose of this parable. Jesus never taught that saints go to hell.

what is blinding you to this truth is your mis-conception of what Hell really is and its purpose according to the will of God.:godisgood::godisgood:

 

[awaken]

man in his condition is using his free will to choose sin-pleasing the flesh is what men love---not the ways of God or the truth of God--men will always use their free will to choose evil--that's who men are is Evil--we cant use the excuse at judgement that we were bound and could not do anything--that's a cop out--we willfully choose to sin with our will and that is what men love--Only God can change men to wanting good and God's ways over his own fleshly desires and pleasures--Only God can enable men to use that free will to choose Christ.

man is in love with sin.the world,fleshly pleasures and he will use his free will everytime to choose this--because that's who he is:godisgood::godisgood:

So all in all its MAN'S fault and not God's that he is in that shape.

How can God, who is perfectly just, "command all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30), knowing the command is impossible to obey?

 

[HisWitness]

Is the transmission of Total inability toward God in the text in Genesis?

I see Adam, Eve and Cain and Abel still able to commune with God, right?

the problem is not total inability--the problem is man's wicked nature and who he is--man has ability--but he uses it everytime for evil

this can only be changed by the grace of God.

Men will try to say at the judgement that they were unable to choose him--but if they were able they would have chosen him--the truth is that man has no excuse before God--Man had the ability to choose and he chose sin over God.the problem is not with inability but with man's wickedness.

 

[Amy.G]

what about the saints that will lose all their rewards and their works burnt up by the FIRE--are they lost because they didn't do right works ?

and also note that these very same saints will be saved so as by the FIRE that burnt their works up ??

Yes, they will be saved because they have built on the right foundation which is Christ. 1Cor 3:12
But if their works were of no value to the Kingdom, they (the works) would be burned (or judged by Christ as worthless), but the saint will not be lost. His salvation is secure, but he will only be rewarded for the works that are valuable to the Kingdom of God (gold/silver).

 

[Amy.G]

what is blinding you to this truth is your mis-conception of what Hell really is and its purpose according to the will of God.:godisgood::godisgood:

Believe what you will. I know that you are a Millennial Exclusionist whether you chose to admit it or not. I have debated this exact argument with many of your friends. It's not new to me and you make no new arguments. I am not blinded but you most definitely are. I hope you see the light.

I will say that I have had a great Bible study tonight thanks to you! And secure in the knowledge that Jesus saved me from the fires of hell for all ETERNITY..FOREVER AND EVER...AMEN!

 

[HisWitness]

How can God, who is perfectly just, "command all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30), knowing the command is impossible to obey?

that's the issue--its not that its impossible for man to obey--its just that man will never choose to do so because of his wickedness

you see men don't understand who they really are--Wicked to the Core.

if they had no ability to choose--then they would have an excuse before God.

But they do have the ability to choose and they choose SIN everytime.

therefore God has to Work upon men and draw them to Christ so that they will want to choose him--in the day of God's power will he enable men to choose him :godisgood::godisgood::godisgood:

 

[awaken]

that's the issue--its not that its impossible for man to obey--its just that man will never choose to do so because of his wickedness

you see men don't understand who they really are--Wicked to the Core.

if they had no ability to choose--then they would have an excuse before God.

But they do have the ability to choose and they choose SIN everytime.

therefore God has to Work upon men and draw them to Christ so that they will want to choose him--in the day of God's power will he enable men to choose him :godisgood::godisgood::godisgood:

What you are saying is confusing to me! If we are ALL wicked to the core...then why are some able to make good choices?
But don't you think God gives everyone the same chance?
Don't you think he wants all to come to Him?
Do you think it makes him happy when people do not chose him?

 

[HisWitness]

Yes, they will be saved because they have built on the right foundation which is Christ. 1Cor 3:12
But if their works were of no value to the Kingdom, they (the works) would be burned (or judged by Christ as worthless), but the saint will not be lost. His salvation is secure, but he will only be rewarded for the works that are valuable to the Kingdom of God (gold/silver).

Yes, they will be saved because they have built on the right foundation which is Christ. 1Cor 3:12

again you are mis-informed they are not saved because they have build upon the foundation--that's works for salvation.
they are saved because they have been placed in Christ--theybuild upon the foundation because they are on the foundation--but paul warned the Saints--NOT the unbelievers--to take heed how they build upon it .

the saints will suffer great loss who has those kind of works--they will be beaten with many stripes--because they knew to do good and they did it not

The unbelievers don't know how to do good--they have not the spirit guiding them as the saints does

the unbelievers do good to them who does them good
the unbelievers do bad to them who do them bad
they know not the Love of God and the ways of God as the saints--so if the saints neglect the spirit and do against grace--then they will answer:jesus:

Salvation is not a ticket to do evil and get away with it--it is a terrible thing to fall in the hands of the Living God--Paul said.

I am not saying saints will become lost at that point by any means--I am saying judgement will comeupon them just as the scriptures says it will and they will pay until the last cent is paid
The FIRE that paul spoke about in 1st Corinthians is the Judgement that will burn the evil works up--by the way those evil works could be attitudes inwardly,false doctrine inwardly--they will all be burned out of the saints --getting rid of the impurities within and replacing it with right attitudes and true doctrine--it will not be pleasant for them--but so as by FIRE will they be saved.

 

[HisWitness]

What you are saying is confusing to me! If we are ALL wicked to the core...then why are some able to make good choices?
But don't you think God gives everyone the same chance?
Don't you think he wants all to come to Him?
Do you think it makes him happy when people do not chose him?

Evil men can make good choices but their attitudes and their motives are selfish and rotten to the core--so therefore they are doing good in order to prosper them selves.which its not really good but seems that way on the outside--but the inward is rotten to the core.

God gives all mankind the same chance.
God desires all men to be saved and come to the truth and what God desires--he has the power to accomplish.
God is not happy about men rejecting him--jesus cried over the city of the jews--about the same thing--but he is aware that men are wicked and is accomplishing his purpose and will through men for his glory.