free will vs. election???????

[quantumfaith]

I need to get a calculator and engage the scientific notation function to count the number of times the charge of "strawman" is bantered and pontificated by some at everything they read and do not like.

 

[Iconoclast]

Awaken,

Originally Posted by awaken View Post
Is the transmission of Total inability toward God in the text in Genesis?

I see Adam, Eve and Cain and Abel still able to commune with God, right?

No..they lost "communion with God...Sin and death separated them.
in the Gen. account it is included in the text....but more clearly when the Holy Spirit has Paul explain it in romans 5.


24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

In the Gen. text...man attempted to hide from God. communication was now hindered by sin .the Image of God was still there but now broken.

Man originally made as an image bearer of God...now reproduces in his own image and likeness ...which is now fallen in Adam

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

 

[HisWitness]

I'm sorry but you are making an assumption here and reading into this what is not there. We will just have to agree to disagree here.

you all are missing one of the greatest truth's there is--why do you give more power to adam's transgression than that of Christ's atonement?

you uplift the transgression in its power and degrade the Atonement.

if God concluded ALL(not just some of every kind)under sin.
why would he not have mercy upon ALL(not just some of every kind)

through 1 man-ALL were made sinners
through 1 man-ALL SHALL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS

it is God's desire that ALL men should be saved--God is fully capable of bringing his desire to pass.

i know your view of hell is blinding you from seeing this Glorius truth.
But the purpose of the FIRE is not as you think it is.

 

[HisWitness]

might have picked the wrong one that i posted--but none the less its for all to see.

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm sorry but you are making an assumption here and reading into this what is not there. We will just have to agree to disagree here.

well..we could..but why not explore a bit?

Can you show me how I am assuming something...that is not there?

Could you comment on vs 14...in a positive way...what you believe it says...we agree it is about the saved.....so
where do you think I am seeing something different from what i offered?

In other words...
we agree there is only ONE offering

then it says that ONE offering.......Perfected forever Them that are sanctified....okay

So.....who else would ,or could be in view at all???
that is what I do not understand about what else you think is possible based on this chapter and all it is speaking of....

so if you can

explain how the sanctified are perfected forever.......but the UNSANCTIFIED are somehow the beneficiaries of anything mentioned here???So what I am saying...maybe I am not making it clear....I think this is a great passage.

if anyone else would like to offer on this pro or con ..feel free

In fact....maybe i will make a thread based on our discussion and see what thoughts are out there....

 

[Revmitchell]

you all are missing one of the greatest truth's there is--why do you give more power to adam's transgression than that of Christ's atonement?

you uplift the transgression in its power and degrade the Atonement.

if God concluded ALL(not just some of every kind)under sin.
why would he not have mercy upon ALL(not just some of every kind)

through 1 man-ALL were made sinners
through 1 man-ALL SHALL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS

it is God's desire that ALL men should be saved--God is fully capable of bringing his desire to pass.

i know your view of hell is blinding you from seeing this Glorius truth.
But the purpose of the FIRE is not as you think it is.

What are you talking about?

 

[HisWitness]

What are you talking about?

got the wrong post picked sorry hehe didn't notice till it was done-but none the less it was for all to read

 

[preacher4truth]

Show me the strong argument? You mocked me and said I was putting God in a box for having a strong conviction against calvinism.

Iron sharpens Iron, sure, but you mock me and say I dont know what an ad hominem is, like I speak without thinking. Thats not sharpening anything.

I feel like God has called all to repentance


Yes I have read through the thread. Don't know why you call me a liar.

At the very least, Maybe im just not quite intellectual enough for the conversation. As I don't see these things (the Calvinism) in the scriptures listed.

Oh my badness, we have here a thin-skinned one? I don't think so, I just feel perhaps you are over-reacting.

Let's look at this honestly:

Let's see, you implied I don't know what an ad hominem is = OK.

I say you don't know what an ad hominem is = Mocking you.

I am not mocking you, and apologize that you feel this way. It is not my intent.

Now, I've given you many Scriptures showing it is God who chose or who chooses, not we who chose God.

As far as you putting God in a box it had nothing to do with your being against Calvinism. It had EVERYTHING to do with you saying Gods nature is tarnished if this predestination/election is true, that is it in a nutshell.

Once again I offer this. It is God who chooses, as He chose Israel, as a brand plucked from the fire. We also have 1 Cor. 1:26-31; 1 Thess 1:4ff; Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:1ff & 5:13; 2 John 1:1, John 1:13, Romans 9:16. And plenty more BaptistJG.

If you want to say that this choosing, something so glaringly apparent in Scripture, that is, that He chooses unconditionally both Israel and His NT saints, that such a Sovereign act tarnishes Him, then you have some heavy contemplation to do, because He does in fact choose whom He wills and has done so since the beginning of time. That is part of His nature and is His glory in so doing. This is a place wherein we need to learn to fully trust Him and glorify Him in so doing.

If you feel this truth is a personal attack upon you as a person, you are incorrect my friend. It is not, and is not my intention. I am conveying Biblical evidence of God's nature and Sovereignty. He chose Israel, they didn't choose Him. There is nothing in Scripture to show Israel chose Him. Such a thing is ridiculous to fathom. It is unBiblical. In this same way, the unchanging God has chosen us, we did not choose Him. The picture of Him choosing Israel is for our learning in that He has also done the same for the NT church.

BaptistJG I don't think you fall under not being intellectual enough. God has given you knowledge in His Son. Think through these things. I have been where you are in your theological thinking. After much prayer and study, I do give God all the glory. I fought against it. I held to presuppositions as you are doing.

He does all His will, none can say 'What are you doing!?' nor can any 'stay His hand' and as Sovereign He does all His will among the hosts of heaven and in the midst of all the inhabitants of Earth -- Daniel 4:35. In the midst of all of this, we truly learn to trust Him in His full Sovereignty. For who can do better and know better than our God? That he does all of these things shows us that He is in fact God and nothing less.

- Blessings

 

[Revmitchell]

So.....who else would ,or could be in view at all???
that is what I do not understand about what else you think is possible based on this chapter and all it is speaking of....

No one

explain how the sanctified are perfected forever.......but the UNSANCTIFIED are somehow the beneficiaries of anything mentioned here???.

You are assuming that there is an implication for the unsaved here.

 

[Herald]

Excellent observation awaken. Don't lose sight of that.

Early Genesis is similar to Acts; both are somewhat transitional and not normative. After the Fall God's interaction with man became more selective. In Acts you see Christ appearing to Saul while his companions heard His voice. During the patristic age God's supernatural appearing (arguably) ended. The point being that it is not wise to extrapolate total ability or inability based on God communicating to His early human creation. Also, the fact that God may make contact with His creation (c.f. Balaam, the unrighteous prophet) does not impute righteousness.

 

[preacher4truth]

Early Genesis is similar to Acts; both are somewhat transitional and not normative. After the Fall God's interaction with man became more selective. In Acts you see Christ appearing to Saul while his companions heard His voice. During the patristic age God's supernatural appearing (arguably) ended. The point being that it is not wise to extrapolate total ability or inability based on God communicating to His early human creation. Also, the fact that God may make contact with His creation (c.f. Balaam, the unrighteous prophet) does not impute righteousness.

Excellent points Herald.

 

[Gorship]

Oh my badness, we have here a thin-skinned one? I don't think so, I just feel perhaps you are over-reacting.

Let's look at this honestly:

Let's see, you implied I don't know what an ad hominem is = OK.

I say you don't know what an ad hominem is = Mocking you.

I am not mocking you, and apologize that you feel this way. It is not my intent.

ok lets just close that and move on.

Now, I've given you many Scriptures showing it is God who chose or who chooses, not we who chose God.

See im like half n half with you on this, God doesnt need us, I agree with that. However the act of repentance and faith is evident in the scripture.

John 3:16
Ro 10:13

As far as you putting God in a box it had nothing to do with your being against Calvinism. It had EVERYTHING to do with you saying Gods nature is tarnished if this predestination/election is true, that is it in a nutshell.

Critique accepted, I think my calvinist friends are all saved, even though I disagree, so i spose rashly, fair enough.

Once again I offer this. It is God who chooses, as He chose Israel, as a brand plucked from the fire. We also have 1 Cor. 1:26-31; 1 Thess 1:4ff; Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:1ff & 5:13; 2 John 1:1, John 1:13, Romans 9:16. And plenty more BaptistJG.

Ill need to go through these which i cant at the moment

If you want to say that this choosing, something so glaringly apparent in Scripture, that is, that He chooses unconditionally both Israel and His NT saints, that such a Sovereign act tarnishes Him, then you have some heavy contemplation to do, because He does in fact choose whom He wills and has done so since the beginning of time. That is part of His nature and is His glory in so doing. This is a place wherein we need to learn to fully trust Him and glorify Him in so doing.

If you feel this truth is a personal attack upon you as a person, you are incorrect my friend. It is not, and is not my intention. I am conveying Biblical evidence of God's nature and Sovereignty. He chose Israel, they didn't choose Him. There is nothing in Scripture to show Israel chose Him. Such a thing is ridiculous to fathom. It is unBiblical. In this same way, the unchanging God has chosen us, we did not choose Him. The picture of Him choosing Israel is for our learning in that He has also done the same for the NT church.

BaptistJG I don't think you fall under not being intellectual enough. God has given you knowledge in His Son. Think through these things. I have been where you are in your theological thinking. After much prayer and study, I do give God all the glory. I fought against it. I held to presuppositions as you are doing.

He does all His will, none can say 'What are you doing!?' nor can any 'stay His hand' and as Sovereign He does all His will among the hosts of heaven and in the midst of all the inhabitants of Earth -- Daniel 4:35. In the midst of all of this, we truly learn to trust Him in His full Sovereignty. For who can do better and know better than our God? That he does all of these things shows us that He is in fact God and nothing less.

- Blessings

What then do I do with all those in my family that are not saved? God created them to suffer and burn for ever?

Ezekiel 18:23-33

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye

While I understand God is speaking to Israel the nature of God that He does not take pleasure in death of the wicked is written there no?

 

[Iconoclast]

No one



You are assuming that there is an implication for the unsaved here.

There are implications for the unsaved in that although it is a positive declaration on what has been accomplished at the cross for them that are sanctified.....the fact that it is the once for all time perfect sacrifice and there will be no other.....for anyone to remain apart from it is tragic...like in Jn 3 when Jesus says...I did not come to condemn the world...the world is condemned already
the scripture is full of these contrasts...in psalm one the blessedness of the godly man is explained...then it says....not so the ungodly

If there is no other sacrifice....i do not think it is at all an assumption as much as it is a reality....i would use this passage evangelistically by explaining that the love of God is only found In Christ...and these results are only for those who have fled to Jesus as the city of refuge.

Every verse does not say everything it could.This verse does not say...ye must be born from above,although it is true.

Rather than an assumption...it seems to be a deduction made from what is revealed.

 

[preacher4truth]

ok lets just close that and move on.

Thanks for your candor and honesty.

Furthermore I can accept this and let it go as well.

See im like half n half with you on this, God doesnt need us, I agree with that. However the act of repentance and faith is evident in the scripture.
John 3:16
Ro 10:13

As a believer you want Gods Word and therefore you use Scripture. This is good. Repentance and faith are both gifts and the leading of God Himself. We get no glory nor any boasting in either of these. He directs, gifts, and leads in both.

Critique accepted, I think my calvinist friends are all saved, even though I disagree, so i spose rashly, fair enough.

All of this is OK. I was rash as well prior to thinking things through. When confronted with these truths I rebuffed, but when reading Scripture, God showed me my errorS. He humbled me by these truths and sent me on a journey for answers. Bless His Name!!!

Ill need to go through these which i cant at the moment

Certainly understandable. Take your time. It took me months to go through these things.

What then do I do with all those in my family that are not saved? God created them to suffer and burn for ever?

:tear: We share your dilemma! In our family there are many for which we pray for salvation. We do not attempt to presume upon them, but trust in Him.

While I understand God is speaking to Israel the nature of God that He does not take pleasure in death of the wicked is written there no?

Yes. God does not take pleasure in this. At the same time He is glorified (i.e. His attributes including being a just God is displayed, not that He gets jolly in this as some interpret 'glorified'). These are hard truths, and we are here for a time, as short as a vapor. Thus we trust in Him.

I pray my brother that you do not leave, but that you stay and grow with the rest of us. You are welcomed here.

- Blessings

 

[Revmitchell]

There are implications for the unsaved in that although it is a positive declaration on what has been accomplished at the cross for them that are sanctified.....the fact that it is the once for all time perfect sacrifice and there will be no other.....for anyone to remain apart from it is tragic...like in Jn 3 when Jesus says...I did not come to condemn the world...the world is condemned already
the scripture is full of these contrasts...in psalm one the blessedness of the godly man is explained...then it says....not so the ungodly

If there is no other sacrifice....i do not think it is at all an assumption as much as it is a reality....i would use this passage evangelistically by explaining that the love of God is only found In Christ...and these results are only for those who have fled to Jesus as the city of refuge.

Every verse does not say everything it could.This verse does not say...ye must be born from above,although it is true.

Rather than an assumption...it seems to be a deduction made from what is revealed.

Actually it is an imposition out of eisegesis.

 

[Iconoclast]

Actually it is an imposition out of eisegesis.

Now we can agree to disagree :thumbsup:

Greek: mia gar prosphora teteleioken (3SRAI) eis to dienekes tous agiazomenous. (PPPMPA)
Amplified: For by a single offering He has forever completely cleansed and perfected those who are consecrated and made holy. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
Barclay: For by one offering and for all time he perfectly gave us that cleansing we need to enter into the presence of God. (Westminster Press)
NLT: For by that one offering he perfected forever all those whom he is making holy. (NLT - Tyndale House)
Phillips: For by virtue of that one offering he has perfected for all time every one whom he makes holy. (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: for by one offering He has brought to completion forever those who are set apart for God and His service. (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified

 

[awaken]

Awaken,



No..they lost "communion with God...Sin and death separated them.
in the Gen. account it is included in the text....but more clearly when the Holy Spirit has Paul explain it in romans 5.


24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

In the Gen. text...man attempted to hide from God. communication was now hindered by sin .the Image of God was still there but now broken.

Man originally made as an image bearer of God...now reproduces in his own image and likeness ...which is now fallen in Adam

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

But God still spoke to them! He gave Cain a chance to make things right! He even said "If thou doeth well, shalt thou not be accepted?" Cain responded to Him...he heard him...and responded to him!

 

[awaken]

More observations in scriptures...

Moses sets life and death before the Israelites for their consideration. I do not see that he was speaking to people utterly incapable of complying with the commands.

Joshua urged the Israelites, "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord" (Josh. 24:15). There is nothing in Joshua's entreaty that suggests the Israelites were all unable to choose the Lord unless they first experienced an inward miracle.


Joshua did say that the people were "not able to serve the Lord" in their present sinful state (v.19). Repentance was in order. They were called upon to make a choice of the heart and turn from their evil ways. Joshua said, "throw away your foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel" (v.23). Nowhere do I see that these people were all in a state of Total Inability from birth!

On the day of Pentecost, Peter preached before thousands who had gathered in Jerusalem. Luke writes, "With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, 'Save yourselves from this corrupt generation'" (Acts 2:40). Was Peter "pleading" with these people to do something they could not do?

 

[Iconoclast]

But God still spoke to them! He gave Cain a chance to make things right! He even said "If thou doeth well, shalt thou not be accepted?" Cain responded to Him...he heard him...and responded to him!

Unsaved men physically heard Jesus....but apart from grace they cannot submit to God's word savingly. They can be religious...but not saved.

Joshua urged the Israelites, "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord" (Josh. 24:15). There is nothing in Joshua's entreaty that suggests the Israelites were all unable to choose the Lord unless they first experienced an inward miracle.

They were being called to obedience and service.God had already delivered them from their enemies....this was not a call to salvation.

On the day of Pentecost, Peter preached before thousands who had gathered in Jerusalem. Luke writes, "With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, 'Save yourselves from this corrupt generation'" (Acts 2:40). Was Peter "pleading" with these people to do something they could not do?

Peter like we are was faithfully proclaiming the means of salvation. God uses the means of the word preached to draw the elect to Himself.Peter urges all men to repent and believe.

By themselves they could not do it.In the same way as when Jesus commanded the crippled man..rise up and walk, or the man with the withered hand,,,stretch forth your hand

HE COMMANDED THEM TO DO WHAT THEY COULD NOT DO. They did it because God enabled them to....Lazarus come forth....see it now?

 

[awaken]

Unsaved men physically heard Jesus....but apart from grace they cannot submit to God's word savingly. They can be religious...but not saved.



They were being called to obedience and service.God had already delivered them from their enemies....this was not a call to salvation.

Jesus sometimes "marvelled" at the unbelief of his hearers (Mark 6:6). But if he subscribed to and taught Total Inability, it would have been no marvel at all that men would disbelieve God, right?