Freewill and OSAS

[Amy.G]

Amy,

The prodigal son never stopped being the fathers son, but he was considered dead. Any thoughts?

Context. I believe the prodigal is a representation of Israel's disobedience. If Israel repented, God would forgive them.


Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing!

 

[Amy.G]

BR: Lucifer did need to be "unborn" OR "uncreated….

I don't get it. What does Lucifer have to do with OSAS? There is no atonement made for the devil and his angels.

 

[BobRyan]

Lucifer and Adam address the invented idea that in order for "sons of God" to get removed from the family of God they have to first be "unborn" or "uncreated". They are examples showing that such is obviously not the case.

As for OSAS itself being in error --

We have Matt 18 - Forgiveness revoked.

We have john 15:1-9 vines "IN CHRIST" that were removed and burned.

We have Romans 11 "natural branches REMOVED" and other wild branches brought into Christ who "stand only by their faith" -- but regarding the branches REMOVED (unbelieving Jews) "HE is able to GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief".

We have the case of Gal 5:4 "SEVERED from Christ ... FALLEN from Grace"

We have the case of the "Rocky Ground" and the "Thorny ground" of Matt 13 that DOES "spring to LIFE" but then later dies.

 

[Amy.G]

Lucifer and Adam address the invented idea that in order for "sons of God" to get removed from the family of God they have to first be "unborn" or "uncreated". They are examples showing that such is obviously not the case.

As for OSAS itself being in error --

We have Matt 18 - Forgiveness revoked.

We have john 15:1-9 vines "IN CHRIST" that were removed and burned.

We have Romans 11 "natural branches REMOVED" and other wild branches brought into Christ who "stand only by their faith" -- but regarding the branches REMOVED (unbelieving Jews) "HE is able to GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief".

We have the case of Gal 5:4 "SEVERED from Christ ... FALLEN from Grace"

Those are your interpretations, not mine. I think you are in error.

 

[Amy.G]

I don't speak in terms of being "unborn" or "uncreated". That doesn't make sense to me. What I do believe is that God does not lie, and if He has put His Spirit in me as a promise of redemption, I believe Him.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog
. Once we are born, we cannot be unborn.

That was the point I was responding to -

 

[Amy.G]

That was the point I was responding to -

I think Web's point was that once God does something, it's done. We can't undo it.

The same is true of Satan. He has been judged already. He is awaiting his final destiny in the lake of fire. But it's a done deal.

We are awaiting our redemption, but it's a done deal.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Good point BR.:thumbs:

Thanks to Trustit and HP --

And BTW - I was still able to correct my typo --

so it reads "Lucifer did NOT need to be UNBORN or UNcreated to fall into condemnation"

 

[BobRyan]

I think Web's point was that once God does something, it's done. We can't undo it.

Indeed -- so when God Himself argues against "forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18 -- we can not undo that warning.

When God Himself says explicitly "That branches IN ME" are removed and cast into the fire -- nothign we can do to undo that warning. It is "real".

When God Himself warns of our being "Severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" in Gal 5 -- no way for us to "undo" the warning God has given.

You see the point.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The same is true of Satan. He has been judged already. He is awaiting his final destiny in the lake of fire. But it's a done deal.

When Lucifer was created a sinless holy Cherub - was it a "done deal"??

When Adam was created a perfect, sinless holy human in harmony with God and man - living in peace and obedience in the Garden "was it a done deal"?

Was free will abolished?

If not then -- has it been abolished now?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

Indeed -- so when God Himself argues against "forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18 -- we can not undo that warning.

When God Himself says explicitly "That branches IN ME" are removed and cast into the fire -- nothign we can do to undo that warning. It is "real".

When God Himself warns of our being "Severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" in Gal 5 -- no way for us to "undo" the warning God has given.

You see the point.


In Christ,

Bob

I see the point. I also see that you are misinterpreting scripture. Sorry.

 

[J.D.]

HP and ittut and BobRyan et al: Can't we reduce the arminian view of savlation down to man's ability to resist the will of God, both in "getting" saved and in "staying" saved?

 

[Amy.G]

When Lucifer was created a sinless holy Cherub - was it a "done deal"??

When Adam was created a perfect, sinless holy human in harmony with God and man - living in peace and obedience in the Garden "was it a done deal"?

Was free will abolished?

If not then -- has it been abolished now?

in Christ,

Bob

No. Do you think you have lost your free will if God keeps you as His child and does not reject you, even if you sin?

 

[BobRyan]

I am always open to exegetically sound, careful and detailed reviews of the text.

It is easy for all of us to say of every other opinion "you have misinterpreted scripture" when that text of scripture does not fit our preferences.

The "value" the "substance" is in actually showing that that claim is true from scripture.

When Christ speaks to "forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18 -- do you have some Bible study trick that undoes it??

So far -- I have not seen one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

HP and ittut and BobRyan et al: Can't we reduce the arminian view of savlation down to man's ability to resist the will of God, both in "getting" saved and in "staying" saved?

Maybe -

In Matt 13 is Christ highlighting the "ability of man" or the "weakness of man" in the case of the thorny Ground that springs to life and the rocky ground that "springs to life"??

 

[Amy.G]

By the way Bob, we also have been judged already just as Satan has.

We have been found INNOCENT by the washing of the blood of Christ.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

No. Do you think you have lost your free will if God keeps you as His child and does not reject you, even if you sin?

If we retain the same freedom to fail in our SINFUL and FALLEN state that Adam clearly had in his SINLESS and UNFALLEN state - then the warndings God gives in scripture must be "real".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

By the way Bob, we also have been judged already just as Satan has.

We have been found INNOCENT by the washing of the blood of Christ.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

In Romans 2 Paul says that in the future "God WILL judge secrets of all men through the man Jesus Christ".

In 2 Cor 5 Paul says "WE MUST ALL stand" future tense "before the judgment seat of Christ" and that we will be given the just reward NOT just for "good deeds" or lack of them but ALSO the legal reward for "BAD deeds" as Paul already stated in Romans 2.

in Dan 7 we see the classic example of JUDGMENT that is FUTURE to the fall and division of the Roman Empire (long after the cross) and is PRIOR to the 2nd coming.

At that judgment -- we see "Judgment passed in favor of the saints".

It is pretty hard to argue against the warnings in scripture on the basis that that FUTURE judgment of the saints is... "over"??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

I am always open to exegetically sound, careful and detailed reviews of the text.

It is easy for all of us to say of every other opinion "you have misinterpreted scripture" when that text of scripture does not fit our preferences.

The "value" the "substance" is in actually showing that that claim is true from scripture.

When Christ speaks to "forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18 -- do you have some Bible study trick that undoes it??

So far -- I have not seen one.

in Christ,

Bob

I have seen various people on the BB go over and over those texts with you, all to no avail. There is no point in repeating it.

How do you deal with the Ephesians passages?

Eph 1:13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

What does Paul mean when he says the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance?

What does Paul mean by being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit of promise?

What is the promise?

 

[J.D.]

Maybe -

In Matt 13 is Christ highlighting the "ability of man" or the "weakness of man" in the case of the thorny Ground that springs to life and the rocky ground that "springs to life"??

I don't understand your question. But one thing I've noticed in this thread is that there's a lot of doctrine being defended by quoting parables. Seems like shaky ground on both sides of the debate to do that.

At any rate, that's what I thought. Prevenient grace says that God restores man his ability to choose salvation, although the more stubborn among us can successfully resist it. And even when someone chooses to be saved, he can choose to be unsaved, again based on his stubborn determination to resist the will of God.

How do you square that with the verse that says "who hath resisted His will?" (reference availabe upon request)