Of course man's choice was no; that is the way God planned for him. It is called the curse, death and sin.
Without a sinner there would be NO NEED for a savior.
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Freewill towards salvation is not Scriptural.
- Thread starter Benoni
- Start date
Of course man's choice was no; that is the way God planned for him. It is called the curse, death and sin.
Without a sinner there would be NO NEED for a savior.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Choose
Joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
Oops can’t use the old testament I wonder why?
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 6
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[Isaiah 54:13] ] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
Ezekiel 28:
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3 Are you wiser than Daniel [Or Danel ; the Hebrew spelling may suggest a person other than the prophet Daniel] ?
Is no secret hidden from you?
4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.
5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.
6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,
7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.
8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.
9 Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.
10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "
11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [Or lapis lazuli] turquoise and beryl. [The precise identification of some of these precious stones is uncertain.]
Your settings and mountings [The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain.] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
Joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
Oops can’t use the old testament I wonder why?
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 6
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[Isaiah 54:13] ] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
Ezekiel 28:
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3 Are you wiser than Daniel [Or Danel ; the Hebrew spelling may suggest a person other than the prophet Daniel] ?
Is no secret hidden from you?
4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.
5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.
6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,
7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.
8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.
9 Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.
10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "
11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [Or lapis lazuli] turquoise and beryl. [The precise identification of some of these precious stones is uncertain.]
Your settings and mountings [The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain.] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
2nd part
How can we go against what God ordained us to, if we have no choice?
Hebrews 4
6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."[ Psalm 95:7,8] 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
Hebrews 3
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[ Psalm 95:7-11]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[ Psalm 95:7,8]
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
How can we go against what God ordained us to, if we have no choice?
Hebrews 4
6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."[ Psalm 95:7,8] 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
Hebrews 3
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[ Psalm 95:7-11]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[ Psalm 95:7,8]
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Ah, yes...the wise sage has come to teach us ignorant bumpkins.
If you do not like what I say then debate me; instead of off the wall comments like this one.
psalms109:31 Your post either are quotes from the OT or are quotes in reference to those who already believe; those God has drawn/draggged/forced or quickened.
The subject is "there is no such thing as man having a freewill or choice towards salvation; we are speaking of the lost; not the quickened.
The subject is "there is no such thing as man having a freewill or choice towards salvation; we are speaking of the lost; not the quickened.
psalms109:31
Active Member
All
In the conclusion in the scripture that was given. Shows the word of Jesus is what quickens us because it is Spirit and life. It is what draws us because the words was not His but the Fathers. His words place two roads before us. To believe and be saved or not and be condemned. Following a crowd is not being drawn by the Father. This was given to us by the Father and we can do what it asks, because it is Spirit and life. It is not our choice or decision. We didn’t just come up with; it came from God through Jesus Christ and His word.
The only way not to work is to trust in Jesus and His word. They were not able to enter because of unbelief in the Gospel not because they were not chosen, simple disobedience to the call to believe trust in Jesus. I don’t care that you believe me, just spend some time studying the scripture that was given.
I don’t believe many have considered them in their conclusion in what the believe now? The Gospel is Good news for all men; all they have to do is trust in Jesus. God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth; they can’t if they have no choice. Hebrews 4 is pretty good don't you think?
Romans 4:5
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
In the conclusion in the scripture that was given. Shows the word of Jesus is what quickens us because it is Spirit and life. It is what draws us because the words was not His but the Fathers. His words place two roads before us. To believe and be saved or not and be condemned. Following a crowd is not being drawn by the Father. This was given to us by the Father and we can do what it asks, because it is Spirit and life. It is not our choice or decision. We didn’t just come up with; it came from God through Jesus Christ and His word.
The only way not to work is to trust in Jesus and His word. They were not able to enter because of unbelief in the Gospel not because they were not chosen, simple disobedience to the call to believe trust in Jesus. I don’t care that you believe me, just spend some time studying the scripture that was given.
I don’t believe many have considered them in their conclusion in what the believe now? The Gospel is Good news for all men; all they have to do is trust in Jesus. God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth; they can’t if they have no choice. Hebrews 4 is pretty good don't you think?
Romans 4:5
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
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God is not calling the whole world now. If God does not call you you have no ability to come and so how can you believe? You place so much faith in carnal man ability to believe. He is dead to all thing spiritual until God quickens his spirit; then and only then can he "believe".
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
If God does not call you, you cannot come.
Here is what God's Word says about the non spiritual man, the soul man... those who have not been quickened/drawn/dragged/forced.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International)
14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (WE)
14The person who does not have the Spirit does not receive the blessings of the Spirit of God. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because only people who have the Spirit of God can test them.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIRV)
14 Some people don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. Things like that are foolish to them. They can't understand them. In fact, such things can't be understood without the Spirit's help.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Word of Jesus
That is where the word of Jesus come, without It I would be dead without a choice for life. It gave me life to this dead body to either walk the road trusting in Jesus and have life or not and remain dead as I was.
I do not trust man, but trust Jesus and His word. In order to keep this life we have is to keep His word, not in our work, but trusting in Him where their is no work on our part.
That is where the word of Jesus come, without It I would be dead without a choice for life. It gave me life to this dead body to either walk the road trusting in Jesus and have life or not and remain dead as I was.
I do not trust man, but trust Jesus and His word. In order to keep this life we have is to keep His word, not in our work, but trusting in Him where their is no work on our part.
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Here's my question to you: Are you talking about us having an illusion of free will? Or that it's already fore-known who will be saved, so there's no actual free will? Or that God has actually already chosen who will be saved?
The rich young ruler in Matthew 19, for example; he asked Jesus what he had to do, and Jesus told him; to which the young man walked away with Jesus not trying to stop him. In what you're saying, does this mean God had already determined the young man wouldn't be saved, and therefore didn't waste any more time on him? Or did the young man make a choice, thereby exerting free will?
Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. It's good to go from milk of the word to meat,but somtimes you get a bone stuck in your throat and need to remember the milk.
Robert Snow
New Member
You may find you are not here long enough to debate anyone considering your attitude.
I don't know how old you are, but you act like we have never been exposed to Calvinism before. And yes, you are espousing Calvinism whether or not you even know it.
I used to tell my students, you have one mouth and two ears. Maybe that means you should listen more than you talk!
benoni:
You deny being a Calvinist yet you speak or seem to speak of total depravity in your statements that no man can come to Christ unless He first draws the creature to Him.
So, your profile doens't say you are reformed or calvinist or even primitive baptist like myself, so what soteriology do you hold to ?
You deny being a Calvinist yet you speak or seem to speak of total depravity in your statements that no man can come to Christ unless He first draws the creature to Him.
So, your profile doens't say you are reformed or calvinist or even primitive baptist like myself, so what soteriology do you hold to ?
Hi Benoni , in Rom 10:13 , For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved , that is written by Paul .
Yet , Paul is QUOTING Joel 2:32 , and this is just one place where Paul quotes the OT .
Does it matter , I think it does , and how would you handle , WHOSOEVER , mean ???
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Friend, what is needed in you is to learn to speak the truth in love. Having right knowledge and doctrine is extremely important. Having it without Christian character is a deformity. And this is something that we all should work on.
If in your contention your seeking to win debates and arguments, you have lost before you start. Seek to win your brethren, should they even be lost. Love them. Honor them. Cherish them.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Faith
Man through faith with love we could move mountains that some believe we cannot.
Man through faith with love we could move mountains that some believe we cannot.
Did not God choose David? Moses? Paul? Please show me one example in scipture where God's elect were not choosen by God first? Carnal man has a freewill to reject, but does not have afreewill to receive. Matthew 19 was a rejection.
Salvation is a catch word for fundies. I am speaking of "full salvation" with God's elect . Like I said God is not calling all people now. Do these verses have a message or were they put there for no reason.
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Nothing is mentioned in God's Word about bones. Like I said babies drink milk.
And what is my attitude? Because I use God's Word to prove you are wrong? Is this how you debate someone who disagrees with you; so you attack them personnaly instead of openly debate them?
I reject all religious thought; it is Christ with in me not religioin without that matters. Maybe you should have ears to hear? Not religious ears that limit God's Word to your preconceived bias idealism; but spiritual ears that are seeking asking and knocking.