Fundamentalists least educated

[Jordan Kurecki]

It all can be summed up this way.

Ecc 2:13-16 Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.
The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.
Then said I in my heart, As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity.
For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool.

 

[Luke2427]

Statistics from the National Center of Educational Statistics

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=91

From the link:




The number of homeschooled children is clearly statistically relevant and is growing. The 2013 report shows 1,770,000 American children were homeschooled in 2013, 3.4% of school age children. Many homeschool advocate groups argue that the actual number is much higher as these numbers only count students in registered homeschool programs.

So we are talking about at least 3.4% of our children.

According to the Religious Landscape Survey (A Pew Report Luke), you can view it here:

http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/affiliations-all-traditions.pdf

According to Pew, IFB churches make up only 2.5% of Americans. So we are concentrating much of that 3.4% of our students in that 2.5% of our population.

Yes, that is significant.

1.5 million would not affect the stats from Pew very much at all.

There are that many public school children enrolled in kindergarten.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=372

"About 3.3 million students are expected to graduate from high school in 2013–14, including 3.0 million students from public high schools and 278,000 students from private high schools (source)."

That is all private schools, not just Christian schools.

It is not statistically significant.

 

[Luke2427]

It all can be summed up this way.

Ecc 2:13-16 Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.
The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.
Then said I in my heart, As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity.
For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool.

how do you think that verse "sums up" this issue?

Before you answer, remember that the author of that verse wrote another book called Proverbs where he said "Wisdom is the PRINCIPLE thing and with all thy getting get knowledge."

Remember proper hermeneutics requires comparing scripture WITH Scripture, interpreting Scripture in its immediate context, context of the book in which it was written, the time and culture into which it was interjected and discerning how that verse fits into the whole of Scripture on the subject which the verse addresses.

Now, with all of that in mind, tell us how you think that verse "sums up" the issue.

 

[Luke2427]

Education is like a rifle, neither good nor bad in itself.

It's good to HAVE one.

Do you own a rifle?

 

[Luke2427]

But we're not talking about ALL Americans, are we? We're talking only the fundamentalists. Classic Chewbacca defense.

We're talking about a much, much smaller number. And taking the perceived uneducation, and comparing it with the percentage of children whose parents refuse to allow them to attend a public, or even private non christian school.

I address this to NC Tentmaker on the above.

 

[Luke2427]

I Second that.
When I took the G.E.D. test ( because the State refused to acknowledge my Bible courses as credits, I had to take it), I received a scholarship for joining the "Albert Einstein Club" scoring in the top 1% of those who take the test.

When I enlisted, I scored the highest score on the ASVAB, that to that date had ever been recorded at the Chicago MEPS Center.

But, according to P.U. polling, I am uneducated.

BTW, my Father has a Másters, and my Mother has an earned PhD in Molecular Biology, and is the director of Lab Studies at a Med school...so they should offset me.

Education is an idol, a false god. One's ed. is only as good as what one does with it.
Ask Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, and others, who would show up in this poll as "uneducated", what school is. School is the enemy of success, not the enablement of it.

Let's talk Psych 101, and it's design purpose, shall we? All who seek an education from this present World, must study their humanistic religión, no? Is doubt cast on anything Godly, in this class? Is all parental and Theological Authority challenged and maligned, or not?

Are you saying that you think Pew is not counting GED's as high school diplomas? Because I think it is.

If it is, this GED argument is irrelevant.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke is embarrassed by God's elect.

No, just many who CLAIM to be. However, God is often embarrassed by his elect, if you'll recall. There's nothing godly about approving of everything about God's elect in the world today. Even those who really are God's elect are being sanctified from their many sins and short comings. The elect are the ONLY ones who can shame God, really- and they often do.

He seeks the honor and praise of atheists and liberals, and thinks that appearing honorable to them, he will win some. (I'm being charitable. It's more likely pride maintenance.)

What atheists follow this forum that I would be trying to impress?

How stupid!

 

[Jerome]

The more "fundamentalist" the less educated.

Independent Baptists and tongue talkers are the least educated people in America according to this pew poll.
http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/ta...nomination.pdf

Look at those with a college degree among American denominations. The liberal Episcopal Church has the highest percentage at 30%. Second to that is the mainline Anglican Church. Then PCUSA at 23%, United Church of Christ, United Methodist at 21% and PCA is tied with Evangelical Lutheran and Nondenominational fundamentalist churches at 19%. Southern Baptists are at 14%. Independent Baptists are at 11%. The lowest is Church of God in Cleveland at 4% followed by Black Independent Baptists at 5% then at 8% are the Assemblies of God.

Here is the correct link to the table the OP is selectively drawing from:

http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/table-education-by-denomination.pdf

You'll notice, glaringly left out of the OP's recitation of denominations is the mainline ABC-USA, with just 9% in the college graduate category.

Southern Baptists are at 14%. Independent Baptists are at 11%.

So Evangelical Baptist groups (Independent and Southern) are in double digits, while the mainline Baptist group (ABC-USA) isn't.

Yet the OP pronounces:

The more "fundamentalist" the less educated.

 

[Luke2427]

Here is the correct link to the table the OP is selectively drawing from:

http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/table-education-by-denomination.pdf

You'll notice, glaringly left out of the OP's recitation of denominations is the mainline ABC-USA, with just 9% in the college graduate category.

So what? It was not about what I didn't include. It was about what I DID include and that is that Independent Baptists and tongue talkers are below most other denominations in America.

You think the ABC's low numbers change the IFB's low numbers?

So Evangelical Baptist groups (Independent and Southern) are in double digits, while the mainline Baptist group (ABC-USA) isn't.

And down by 20 points to the mainline episcopal and anglican denominations.

All you are proving is that Baptists PERIOD are among the least educated people in the industrialized world.

IFB more so than the SBC and so on.

Yes, well, there's nothing new there, is there?

 

[Inspector Javert]

I'll add my two cents....and then be finished: (maybe)

On it's face, Luke's O.P. does show us an element of great concern:

Quality "accredited" education is, and can be a very important tool, and, it is the case I.M.O. that many fundamentalist Baptists are failing to utilize it. I don't think the immediate hostility to his O.P. is entirely warranted. It is critical that we be all things to all men, and by any means necessary, use what tools are available in order to reach some.....SOME of those people simply will not listen to an uneducated individual.

SOME people (and they are wrong for it) simply do not want to hear a Christian apologetic from an uneducated (and by that we mean paper) person. Are they mistaken in that demand?

Yes.
Could they learn MUCH from people who are well self-educated or educated in non-accredited institutions? Yes.

Do they know that?
Apparently not.

But it behooves us to use those tools when practicable.

The Scriptures encourage us to be "Wise as serpents"...

I believe an accredited education can be a great tool for accomplishing that end.

I remember as a younger man arguing with my sainted mother about why I don't care one fig for "pieces of paper" or "accredited" degrees etc....and she kept telling me over and over that there are some (reachable) people who just might respond to an apologetic from someone with those papers.....

I hated what she said, but there was truth to it.

My Father is not saved, but he is a highly educated attorney, ditto my uncle, a highly educated Doctor. There are many HIGHLY educated persons in my extended family and it is in fact the case that they tend to listen and respond to people with the "creds" more than the impassioned "Spirit-filled" preacher who doesn't have those creds.

It's a fact of life.

We can't run from it.

I debated that "piece of paper" argument with my mother for several years:

Turns out.......that she (salutatorian at F.S.U.) was right......Apparently, my parents have indeed learned an awful lot in the past 15 years! Parents do get a lot smarter as they get older

We (if we have academic gifts) should pursue every available avenue of possible learning, and sometimes, that's at a public accredited school.

If your kid is so ill-prepared to deal with the University arguments and the professor's tired Naturalist/Humanist world-view such that they are susceptible to fall into doubt merely from attending such a school, than they were ill-prepared for that and I blame the parents and the Church for it's inability to prepare their children for the eventual intellectual battles they will have to fight at a worldly school.

What's wrong with fundamentalism (expressed in what some call "Ivory-Tower" Christianity) sometimes is this:

In 1994 I was seriously considering studying drama at the college of William and Mary (anyone familiar, knows that amongst other things, William and Mary is one of the best drama schools in the country)......LIKE TOP TEN at least....(next to Julliard, I've seen it ranked no. #2 in some cases.)

At the I.F.B. Church I attended, my innocently expressing that idea made them hyper-ventilate about how I would lose my faith, and (after all) Bob Jones University was TEN TIMES the drama school William and Mary could ever hope to be (they swear...it's that good).

Does Luke then want the laud and praises of godless atheists????

Well, to some extent, yes, he does........
And he's right for it.

They might just listen to someone with a few letters behind their name as opposed to someone who doesn't have it.

That's a challenge, yes:

But my fear (and I imagine Luke shares it)...is that we preach these platitudes about how all we need is to be "Spirit-filled" and "Empowered"; and that's merely an excuse for laziness.

Spirit-filled preachers aren't too lazy to do the hard work of getting an accredited education....not if they're academically gifted and able to do so.............Yes, Luke's presentation is often brash (mine are too) and that turns some people off from the meat of what he has to express...

But, when you educate yourself......
You learn to eat the meat and spit out the bones.....

Luke's O.P. had a lot of bones (many of his posts do)
But the general thrust of it........
Was a meaty challenge that we can't ignore.

 

[Luke2427]

I'll add my two cents....and then be finished: (maybe)

On it's face, Luke's O.P. does show us an element of great concern:

Quality "accredited" education is, and can be a very important tool, and, it is the case I.M.O. that many fundamentalist Baptists are failing to utilize it. I don't think the immediate hostility to his O.P. is entirely warranted. It is critical that we be all things to all men, and by any means necessary, use what tools are available in order to reach some.....SOME of those people simply will not listen to an uneducated individual.

SOME people (and they are wrong for it) simply do not want to hear a Christian apologetic from an uneducated (and by that we mean paper) person. Are they mistaken in that demand?

Yes.
Could they learn MUCH from people who are well self-educated or educated in non-accredited institutions? Yes.

Do they know that?
Apparently not.

But it behooves us to use those tools when practicable.

The Scriptures encourage us to be "Wise as serpents"...

I believe an accredited education can be a great tool for accomplishing that end.

I remember as a younger man arguing with my sainted mother about why I don't care one fig for "pieces of paper" or "accredited" degrees etc....and she kept telling me over and over that there are some (reachable) people who just might respond to an apologetic from someone with those papers.....

I hated what she said, but there was truth to it.

My Father is not saved, but he is a highly educated attorney, ditto my uncle, a highly educated Doctor. There are many HIGHLY educated persons in my extended family and it is in fact the case that they tend to listen and respond to people with the "creds" more than the impassioned "Spirit-filled" preacher who doesn't have those creds.

It's a fact of life.

We can't run from it.

I debated that "piece of paper" argument with my mother for several years:

Turns out.......that she (salutatorian at F.S.U.) was right......Apparently, my parents have indeed learned an awful lot in the past 15 years! Parents do get a lot smarter as they get older

We (if we have academic gifts) should pursue every available avenue of possible learning, and sometimes, that's at a public accredited school.

If your kid is so ill-prepared to deal with the University arguments and the professor's tired Naturalist/Humanist world-view such that they are susceptible to fall into doubt merely from attending such a school, than they were ill-prepared for that and I blame the parents and the Church for it's inability to prepare their children for the eventual intellectual battles they will have to fight at a worldly school.

What's wrong with fundamentalism sometimes is this:

In 1994 I was seriously considering studying drama at the college of William and Mary (anyone familiar, knows that amongst other things, William and Mary is one of the best drama schools in the country)......LIKE TOP TEN at least....(next to Julliard, I've seen it ranked no. #2 in some cases.)

At the I.F.B. Church I attended, my innocently expressing that idea made them hyper-ventilate about how I would lose my faith, and (after all) Bob Jones University was TEN TIMES the drama school William and Mary could ever hope to be (they swear...it's that good).

Does Luke then want the laud and praises of godless atheists????

Well, to some extent, yes, he does........
And he's right for it.

They might just listen to someone with a few letters behind their name as opposed to someone who doesn't have it.

That's a challenge, yes:

But my fear (and I imagine Luke shares it)...is that we preach these platitudes about how all we need is to be "Spirit-filled" and "Empowered"; and that's merely an excuse for laziness.

Spirit-filled preachers aren't too lazy to do the hard work of getting an accredited education....not if they're academically gifted and able to do so.............Yes, Luke's presentation is often brash (mine are too) and that turns some people off from the meat of what he has to express...

But, when you educate yourself......
You learn to eat the meat and spit out the bones.....

Luke's O.P. had a lot of bones (many of his posts do)
But the general thrust of it........
Was a meaty challenge that we can't ignore.

Prepare to be excoriated, castigated and eviscerated.

There is only one thing on all of BB that is rougher than my OP's- the people who hate them. Compare their responses to my OP and it is clear. They are harsh against harshness. What hypocrisy!
They are vicious against bluntness. Hypocrisy in the highest degree.

And now you will receive their hypocritical wrath.

Thanks, though.

And keep in mind, though I certainly think Christians ought to lead the way in higher education, my argument was not limited to that.

Fundamentalists and evangelicals are not even getting HIGH SCHOOL diplomas on the level that atheists are.

We can't castigate the public school system (and I know it is riddled with faults) for being the reason we are falling behind most other industrialized nations when WE ARE THE ONES LEADING THE COUNTRY in lack of education.

It's this business about getting the beam out of our own eyes before we try to cast the mote out of the government's.

 

[Inspector Javert]

And down by 20 points to the mainline episcopal and anglican denominations.

All you are proving is that Baptists PERIOD are among the least educated people in the industrialized world.

This reminds me of a line from the movie "A River Runs through it"...(a crappy movie) but I remember this:
It struck me the first time I heard it, and I'll never forget it:

The narrarator, at the beginning of the film, described his father (played by Tom Skerrit) as a Presbyterian Minister and as I remember it....

He states that his father considered the Methodists to be, and I quote:
"Baptists who could read".

That narraration wasn't conjured out of thin air...there's a reason he had that opinion, and there's a reason that a probably godless Hollywood writer wrote the script that way....

That film was no doubt seen by MILLIONS.

 

[Inspector Javert]

My main concern is essentially this:

That whatever reaction we take to the O.P. or the idea behind it...

We search our hearts and truly know whether the reason we object to it is because we think it mistaken....

Or, rather, we are too lazy to do the hard work and invest the time, energy and even money into education...

Deep-down...

I believe that much of the objection to your O.P. is because many people are simply lazy. Some will want to justify refusing to take the time and energy to work at a formalized education, and some will use platitudes about how God uses the "simple" to confound the wise, or about how a "Spirit-filled" believer can be ten times the preacher that an educated man is...etc....

While that is often true....

God does gift some men with talents which I think they bury...

It is many a very intelligent (sort-a well educated) I.F.B. Pastor I have known with a GREAT head on their shoulders, and a grasp of God's Word, often decent Historical knowledge etc....
And even a rather impressive passing knowledge of both Greek and Hebrew...

But, they never developed those skills as they could have.
And a more rounded formal education would have helped them do that. I.M.O.
Sometimes, I wish they did:

I don't think God will reward sheer laziness couched in a claim of faith in the "Spirit".
I think in some respects...God is a hard master and will demand a return with interest upon the intellectual talents he gave his servants upon his return.

I'm sure I've read that somewhere....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This reminds me of a line from the movie "A River Runs through it"...(a crappy movie) but I remember this:
It struck me the first time I heard it, and I'll never forget it:

The narrarator, at the beginning of the film, described his father (played by Tom Skerrit) as a Presbyterian Minister and as I remember it....

He states that his father considered the Methodists to be, and I quote:
"Baptists who could read".

That narraration wasn't conjured out of thin air...there's a reason he had that opinion, and there's a reason that a probably godless Hollywood writer wrote the script that way....

That film was no doubt seen by MILLIONS.

Actually he said Methodists were Baptists with shoes.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Old American joke:

An Episcopalian is a Presbyterian with a trust fund.

A Presbyterian is a Methodist with a college education.

And a Methodist is a Baptist with shoes.

 

[Deacon]

I've heard the phrase, "Presbyterians are Baptists that read".

Re "River runs through it" - the book was more poetic, the movie conveyed the story but not the purpose of the story.

Rob

 

[Aaron]

No. . .

K

However, God is often embarrassed by his elect, if you'll recall. There's nothing godly about approving of everything about God's elect in the world today. Even those who really are God's elect are being sanctified from their many sins and short comings. The elect are the ONLY ones who can shame God, really- and they often do.

In other words, Yes.

What atheists follow this forum that I would be trying to impress?

I could name two or three, but that's against the rules. But puh-leeze. You aren't trying to impress anyone here. It's the atheists out there, who see the things you think are embarrassing.

How stupid!

That's what your betters are trying to tell you, but you're wiser in your own eyes.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Most uneducated Christians are just too sorry and lazy to do better. Atheists are not as sorry and lazy as most Christians.

It's sad.

But the vitriol spewed at me on this thread for excoriating the sorriness of Christians in this culture is THE VERY REASON CHRISTIANS IN THIS CULTURE ARE SO SORRY.

Luke, when you say this, is it with a broken heart? Or do you wish God would come down right now and melt the wannabe/lukewarm christians? Do lazy christians break your heart? Or do you wish deep down, the lazy ones would be thinned out of the herd, so to speak? At what point were christians in this country NOT-sorry? People stink, right?

Luke, at one point in my life, I had the heart Jonah had towards the Ninevites. Later, God broke my heart and I'm a little more like Jeremiah these days. I KNOW there will be those who refuse to repent and will die and go to hell. Destruction is coming for many. It used to put a smile on face. Not anymore.

Sure, atheists are highly educated. Maybe they have more money for it since they are not filling offering plates? I don't know. Our nation has problems. Judgment begins at the house of God....please be praying for the church.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, when you say this, is it with a broken heart? Or do you wish God would come down right now and melt the wannabe/lukewarm christians? Do lazy christians break your heart? Or do you wish deep down, the lazy ones would be thinned out of the herd, so to speak? At what point were christians in this country NOT-sorry? People stink, right?

Luke, at one point in my life, I had the heart Jonah had towards the Ninevites. Later, God broke my heart and I'm a little more like Jeremiah these days. I KNOW there will be those who refuse to repent and will die and go to hell. Destruction is coming for many. It used to put a smile on face. Not anymore.

Sure, atheists are highly educated. Maybe they have more money for it since they are not filling offering plates? I don't know. Our nation has problems. Judgment begins at the house of God....please be praying for the church.

I am brokenhearted for the Church in America.

But I am also angry at the propensity for so many of them in the church and on this thread to deny responsibility.

Remember, Jesus did not JUST weep for the lost sheep of Israel.

He also excoriated the self-righteous of Israel.

There is nothing godly about refusing to be angry over that which angers God.

 

[Luke2427]

K

In other words, Yes.

I could name two or three, but that's against the rules. But puh-leeze. You aren't trying to impress anyone here. It's the atheists out there, who see the things you think are embarrassing.

That's what your betters are trying to tell you, but you're wiser in your own eyes.

OK.

Let me know when you are ready to deal with the facts presented in this thread.