General Reconciliation

[Van]

You chose not to answer the question, Van. I will ask you again, since you are the one who brought up the means of salvation. Please answer this very simple question.

What is the means of salvation, van?
Do humans play a part in the means by which they are saved? Or is the means by which humans are saved entirely by God alone?
Van, I believe the means of salvation is entirely by God alone. Do you agree?

This Calvinist posted this question in post #95, and ignored the answer of post #96. He has continued to repost this false charge over and over again (posts # 98 and 100).

 

[1689Dave]

On and on, folks, Calvinists changing the subject to me and perhaps my hatred of God. So sad.
Christ died as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6) not for just a few.
Christ bought with His blood those heading for destruction (2 Peter 2:1)
Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world (mankind). 1 John 2:2

Scripture is right and those make it to no effect are wrong.

I'm just pointing out how treacherous your opinions are. Have you ever studied Calvin? Or just don't like what others say about him?

 

[Van]

I'm just pointing out how treacherous your opinions are. Have you ever studied Calvin? Or just don't like what others say about him?

Yet another change the subject post. This is all Calvinism has to offer, disparage those presenting scripture after scripture demonstrating how "treacherous" and false Calvinism is.

Christ died as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6) not for just a few.
Christ bought with His blood those heading for destruction (2 Peter 2:1)
Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world (mankind). 1 John 2:2

Scripture is right and those who make it to no effect are wrong.

 

[atpollard]

This Calvinist posted this question in post #95, and ignored the answer of post #96. He has continued to repost this false charge over and over again (posts # 98 and 100).

Really?

Do humans play a part in the means by which they are saved? Or is the means by which humans are saved entirely by God alone?
Van, I believe the means of salvation is entirely by God alone. Do you agree?

But here it is again for the umpteeth time:

Propitiation provides the means of salvation from the wrath of God. And just what is this means? The blood of Christ, the life laid down as a ransom for all. Everyone and anyone placed into Christ as our propitiatory shelter obtains salvation, they are forgiven and the decrees against them are set aside.

The question was “Do humans play a part in the means by which they are saved? Or is the means by which humans are saved entirely by God alone?”

Where in your Post #96 does it say “humans play a part” or “God alone”? From what I read, you avoided either choice and gave a politician’s answer ... “the blood of Jesus saves us”.

 

[Van]

Really?

The question was “Do humans play a part in the means by which they are saved? Or is the means by which humans are saved entirely by God alone?”

Where in your Post #96 does it say “humans play a part” or “God alone”? From what I read, you avoided either choice and gave a politician’s answer ... “the blood of Jesus saves us”.

The means of salvation was provided by God the Son alone, as my answer said. Please stop your constant smokescreed.
Did I say humans put ourselves into Christ? Nope Did I say God puts us into Christ after He credits our faith, as righteousness? Yes The OP, post #1.

Propitiation provides the means of salvation from the wrath of God. And just what is this means? The blood of Christ, the life laid down as a ransom for all. Everyone and anyone placed into Christ as our propitiatory shelter obtains salvation, they are forgiven and the decrees against them are set aside.

Did I say the blood of Christ saves us? Nope I said the blood of Christ provides the means of salvation. I said everyone and anyone placed into Christ as our propitiatory shelter obtains salvation.
Did the blood of Christ saves the person heading for destruction, 2 Peter 2:1? Nope, a person must be put in Christ by God alone. God alone puts those of His choosing into Christ. No one else.
Will the Calvinists misrepresent my view yet again? You bet, they present falsehoods from Calvinism non-stop.

 

[atpollard]

The means of salvation was provided by God the Son alone, as my answer said. Please stop your constant smokescreed.
Did I say humans put ourselves into Christ? Nope Did I say God puts us into Christ after He credits our faith, as righteousness? Yes The OP, post #1.

There was no “smokescreed”.
I understand your view (and simply disagree that Scripture teaches it). However, as even you have just pointed out, your response in Post #96 did not answer the “either/or” question of post #95, but required one to go back and combine post #96 with post #1 to obtain “humans play a part” as the answer.

“God puts us into Christ after He credits our faith, as righteousness?“ ... You could have just posted this in Post #96 and answered the Question from Post #95 without all of the effort to avoid saying that people play a part, when you do believe that we play a part ... through our faith.

(If I have misunderstood your position, then what is the source of “our faith“ if it is not us?)

 

[atpollard]

Did I say the blood of Christ saves us? Nope I said the blood of Christ provides the means of salvation. I said everyone and anyone placed into Christ as our propitiatory shelter obtains salvation.

You make a distinction without a difference.

 

[Derf B]

Romans 3:10-18,22-30 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Philippians 3:8-9 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Romans 5:1-11 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Maybe Paul didn’t know about Job?! Since your references are couched as absolutes, it only takes one example to refute your take on them.

Job 1:1 (KJV) There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

God also give testimony that someone can repent, which shows up in numerous passages, Old and New Testaments.

Luke tells us of Cornelius, who sought after God.
Acts 10:2 (KJV) [A] devout [man], and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
But Jesus offered the best proof, in the passage you were responding to, since He accounted for both the wicked and the righteous—based on their works, for which they will be judged.

These passages can’t conflict, so we have to understand them correctly.


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[AustinC]

This Calvinist posted this question in post #95, and ignored the answer of post #96. He has continued to repost this false charge over and over again (posts # 98 and 100).

You never answered the question in post #96.
What is the means of salvation, van?
Do humans play a part in the means by which they are saved? Or is the means by which humans are saved entirely by God alone?
Van, I believe the means of salvation is entirely by God alone. Do you agree?

 

[AustinC]

Maybe Paul didn’t know about Job?! Since your references are couched as absolutes, it only takes one example to refute your take on them.

Job 1:1 (KJV) There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

God also give testimony that someone can repent, which shows up in numerous passages, Old and New Testaments.

Luke tells us of Cornelius, who sought after God.
Acts 10:2 (KJV) [A] devout [man], and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
But Jesus offered the best proof, in the passage you were responding to, since He accounted for both the wicked and the righteous—based on their works, for which they will be judged.

These passages can’t conflict, so we have to understand them correctly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you honestly claiming Job was sinless?
The Hebrew does not say he was sinless.
Second, was Job chosen by God or did Job choose God and therefore Job's choice caused God to declare Job blameless?

 

[1689Dave]

Yet another change the subject post. This is all Calvinism has to offer, disparage those presenting scripture after scripture demonstrating how "treacherous" and false Calvinism is.

Christ died as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6) not for just a few.
Christ bought with His blood those heading for destruction (2 Peter 2:1)
Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world (mankind). 1 John 2:2

Scripture is right and those who make it to no effect are wrong.

This is serious. If Calvin is right about God, you hate him with a passion and serve an idol of your own making.

 

[1689Dave]

Yet another change the subject post. This is all Calvinism has to offer, disparage those presenting scripture after scripture demonstrating how "treacherous" and false Calvinism is.

Christ died as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6) not for just a few.
Christ bought with His blood those heading for destruction (2 Peter 2:1)
Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world (mankind). 1 John 2:2

Scripture is right and those who make it to no effect are wrong.

You are picking only the scriptures you can use to float your false doctrine. You leave out all the verses that force a constraint on them. The atonement saves. You say it does not. It only makes a way for the self-righteous to save themselves. Which is Pelagianism, a heresy refuted in 431 by the Council of Ephesus.

 

[Van]

There was no “smokescreed”.
I understand your view (and simply disagree that Scripture teaches it). However, as even you have just pointed out, your response in Post #96 did not answer the “either/or” question of post #95, but required one to go back and combine post #96 with post #1 to obtain “humans play a part” as the answer.

“God puts us into Christ after He credits our faith, as righteousness?“ ... You could have just posted this in Post #96 and answered the Question from Post #95 without all of the effort to avoid saying that people play a part, when you do believe that we play a part ... through our faith.

(If I have misunderstood your position, then what is the source of “our faith“ if it is not us?)

Only that you asked a question that I had answered over and over again before you asked it in post #96

 

[Van]

You make a distinction without a difference.

Some why did you alter my view?

 

[Van]

You never answered the question in post #96.
What is the means of salvation, van?
Do humans play a part in the means by which they are saved? Or is the means by which humans are saved entirely by God alone?
Van, I believe the means of salvation is entirely by God alone. Do you agree?

Smokescreed, as even an Calvinist agrees with me.

 

[Van]

This is serious. If Calvin is right about God, you hate him with a passion and serve an idol of your own making.

Smokescreed attacking me with false charges rather than addressing 1 John 2:2, 1 Peter 2:1, and 1 Timothy 2:6
The biblical doctrine of reconciliation is general not particular.

 

[1689Dave]

Smokescreed attacking me with false charges rather than addressing 1 John 2:2, 1 Peter 2:1, and 1 Timothy 2:6
The biblical doctrine of reconciliation is general not particular.

There is no reconciliation apart from God's first atoning for those he reconciles. He would not be good otherwise.

 

[Van]

You are picking only the scriptures you can use to float your false doctrine. You leave out all the verses that force a constraint on them. The atonement saves. You say it does not. It only makes a way for the self-righteous to save themselves. Which is Pelagianism, a heresy refuted in 431 by the Council of Ephesus.

Smokescreed yet again, here my view is misrepresented. No verse or passage "constrains" general reconciliation.
I say we are saved by God alone, and you make the material false statement I say the lost "save themselves." Then based on your misrepresentation, you make yet another false charge.

On and on folks, all Calvinists have is smear and misrepresent. Christ died forl mankind, providing the means of salvation for mankind, but only those God alone puts into Christ "receive that reconciliation." And God puts individuals into Christ on the basis of faith in Christ, as credited by God as righteousness.

 

[Van]

There is no reconciliation apart from God's first atoning for those he reconciles. He would not be good otherwise.

Here Dave posts that He agrees with my view, but posts it in a way one might infer I had said something different.

On and on folks, Calvinism cannot be defended from scripture so this is the sort of smokescreed that must be used.

 

[1689Dave]

Smokescreed yet again, here my view is misrepresented. No verse or passage "constrains" general reconciliation.
I say we are saved by God alone, and you make the material false statement I say the lost "save themselves." Then based on your misrepresentation, you make yet another false charge.

On and on folks, all Calvinists have is smear and misrepresent. Christ died forl mankind, providing the means of salvation for mankind, but only those God alone puts into Christ "receive that reconciliation." And God puts individuals into Christ on the basis of faith in Christ, as credited by God as righteousness.

You need to explain how God can reconcile sinners without first paying for their reconciliation. How can he bee good if he cuts corners and does bad things?