Giving by the Father - Jn. 6:37-65

[The Biblicist]

In this passage it is clear that being given by the Father is restricted only to those who actually come to the Son in faith - Jn. 6:37-39 - as "ALL" given by the Father NONE fail to come (v. 39) and therefore NONE are given other than those who do come. That means God did not give the whole world to the Son and so whom the Father gave to the Son is LIMITED. Moreover, coming is the consequence of being given not vice versa as Jesus does not say all who come "shall be" given to me by the Father.

Likewise, NONE come to the Son that the Father does not "draw" to the Son - Jn. 6:44. In this context "draw" is defined as "teach" (v. 45) which is something "given to him" by the Father (Jn. 6:65). What is "given unto him" in John 6:65 is explicitly what is said to be missing in some of His disciples in verse 64 - belief in Christ. Coming to Christ is equal to believing in Christ and ALL whom the Father gave to Christ did "come" to him in faith.

Skandelon, winman and van must deny the obvious comparison between what is explicitly stated is missing in John 6:64 versus the reason stated why it is missing in John 6:65.

Skandelon, winman and Van must deny that this obvious missing element in John 6:64 is faith in Christ which is defined by John 6:65 to be what the INTERNAL INSTRUCTING WORK of God that "ALL" receive who have been drawn by the Father and "EVERY MAN" that received it "heard...learned" does come to the Son in faith.

 

[The Biblicist]

In this passage it is clear that being given by the Father is restricted only to those who actually come to the Son in faith - Jn. 6:37-39 - as "ALL" given by the Father NONE fail to come (v. 39) and therefore NONE are given other than those who do come. That means God did not give the whole world to the Son and so whom the Father gave to the Son is LIMITED. Moreover, coming is the consequence of being given not vice versa as Jesus does not say all who come "shall be" given to me by the Father.

Likewise, NONE come to the Son that the Father does not "draw" to the Son - Jn. 6:44. In this context "draw" is defined as "teach" (v. 45) which is something "given to him" by the Father (Jn. 6:65). What is "given unto him" in John 6:65 is explicitly what is said to be missing in some of His disciples in verse 64 - belief in Christ. Coming to Christ is equal to believing in Christ and ALL whom the Father gave to Christ did "come" to him in faith.

Skandelon, winman and van must deny the obvious comparison between what is explicitly stated is missing in John 6:64 versus the reason stated why it is missing in John 6:65.

Skandelon, winman and Van must deny that this obvious missing element in John 6:64 is faith in Christ which is defined by John 6:65 to be what the INTERNAL INSTRUCTING WORK of God that "ALL" receive who have been drawn by the Father and "EVERY MAN" that received it "heard...learned" does come to the Son in faith.

1. ALL who are given to the Son by the Father come (believe). - vv. 37-39

2. ALL who are not drawn by the Father do not come (believe) but remain in unbelief (false profession) - vv. 64-65

3. Hence, ALL given equal ALL drawn as both come (believe).

Those in John 6:64 were not DRAWN by the Father because John 6:65 say they could not come (believe) because it was not "given unto them" to come to Christ in faith and so all who come in unbelief (false profession) as those in verse 64 are not drawn by the Father according to verse 65.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Thus it is the ability (can) to come in faith that must be "given unto him" by the Father! Thus verse 65 defines "draw" in verse 44 to be the ability to come to Christ in faith which ability is the internal teaching or revelation by God - 2 Cor. 4;6. Those in verse 64 were not drawn by the Father, "it" or coming to Christ was not "given unto" them as they remained in a false profession.

 

[Winman]

In this passage it is clear that being given by the Father is restricted only to those who actually come to the Son in faith - Jn. 6:37-39 - as "ALL" given by the Father NONE fail to come (v. 39) and therefore NONE are given other than those who do come. That means God did not give the whole world to the Son and so whom the Father gave to the Son is LIMITED. Moreover, coming is the consequence of being given not vice versa as Jesus does not say all who come "shall be" given to me by the Father.

True

Likewise, NONE come to the Son that the Father does not "draw" to the Son - Jn. 6:44.

It does say that no man can come unless drawn, but it does not say everyone who is drawn shall come, that is a completely different thing.

In the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22, many men were "bid" or "called" that did not come. They were drawn, but they did not come. However, all that did come were drawn.

This is not complicated whatsoever, but you refuse to see it.

In this context "draw" is defined as "teach" (v. 45) which is something "given to him" by the Father (Jn. 6:65). What is "given unto him" in John 6:65 is explicitly what is said to be missing in some of His disciples in verse 64 - belief in Christ. Coming to Christ is equal to believing in Christ and ALL whom the Father gave to Christ did "come" to him in faith.

What was given is "knowledge". No man can believe in Jesus unless they have heard of him.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Here Paul asks how any man can believe in Jesus unless he has heard of him. So Paul implies the only inability a man has is ignorance. No man can believe what he does not know. Paul does not imply or hint whatsoever that a man must be supernaturally regenerated to have the ability to believe.

It would be incredible to believe Paul would omit such an important doctrine (the need to be regenerated to believe) if it were true, but he does. NO, Paul implies that ignorance only is the ONLY reason a man cannot believe in Jesus.

Skandelon, winman and van must deny the obvious comparison between what is explicitly stated is missing in John 6:64 versus the reason stated why it is missing in John 6:65.

Jesus said that some did not believe. They did not hear or learn from the Father as Jesus said in verse 45, therefore it was not given to them. You must hear from the Father and learn from him to come to Jesus, they did not do that.

Skandelon, winman and Van must deny that this obvious missing element in John 6:64 is faith in Christ which is defined by John 6:65 to be what the INTERNAL INSTRUCTING WORK of God that "ALL" receive who have been drawn by the Father and "EVERY MAN" that received it "heard...learned" does come to the Son in faith.

Well, it is true they did not believe, but that is because they did not hear and learn from the Father. If they had listened to the word of God, they would have believed in Jesus.

Jhn 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

You had to believe the word of God to believe in Jesus. You had to believe the writings given to Moses and the prophets to believe in Jesus. These words were given by the Father. No man can come unless it (the word of God) were given him by the Father.

A perfect example is the disciples, they believed in Jesus because they believed the word of God given by Moses and the prophets.

Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

Andrew is speaking of Daniel 9:25 here, which spoke of the Messiah who would come.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Philip also believed the word of God;

Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

No one can believe what they do not know. God gives knowledge, which enables a man to believe or not. Therefore, no man can believe or come to Jesus unless he first receives the knowledge given him by the Father through the word of God.

This is why Jesus implied that if they did not believe Moses, how could they possibly believe him in John 5:45-47? Did Jesus mention anything about the necessity to be regenerated to believe? Nope, not a word.

The scriptures repeatedly show that men are ignorant, they lack knowledge. No where do the scriptures EVER say or even hint that men must be regenerated to have the ability to believe.

 

[The Biblicist]

It does say that no man can come unless drawn, but it does not say everyone who is drawn shall come, that is a completely different thing.

Yes it does. The negative is stated in verse 44 "no man can come" and those in John 6:64 are part of that "no man can" demonstrating the Father does not draw "all" men to Christ as they were left in unbelief "from the beginning" and thus never are drawn/taught. What was not "given unto" them in verse 64 was the ability to come/believe in verse 65. Read it slowly "no man can come to me except it were given unto him". What is it that is not given unto him? It is stated in the first part of the verse, the abiltiy "can" to "come to him" in faith, which was absent in verse 64 from "some" of his disciples.

Hence, the Father does not draw all men or give ability to come to Christ to all men. Therefore, those in verses 64-65 do not belong to the exception clause in verse 44 but belong the universal negative clause in verse 44 as they were never drawn/taught/given or enable to come to Christ in faith. Thus again proving that faith is "the work of God" (Jn. 6:29) and not of men.

However, in contrast to the universal negative in verse 44 is the universal postive or "all" of the Isaiah scripture quotation in verse 45a. NONE of this "ALL" fails to be drawn in verse 44 and therefore are those who compose the exception clause in verse 44. This "all" are "taught" in verse 45a in contrast to those in 64 who never were taught by God.

What you are conveniently ignoring is "no man can" refers to ABILITY and drawing reverses that or makes those UNABLE to come ENABLED to come to Christ in faith.

What you are also conveniently ignoring that the words "come to me" refer to coming to Christ in faith. No man has the ability to come to Christ in faith EXCEPT it is given to him (v. 65) as those in verse 64 are examples of "some" who never were "given" this ability and therefore never came to him in this manner.

Therefore "draw" equals ABILITY to come to Christ in faith and is equal to "taught" in the scripture quotation in verse 45a. Hence, to be "taught" is to be drawn and to be drawn is to be given ability to come to Christ in faith.

Now, you fail to recognize there is NO EXCEPTION CLAUSE within this quotation part but that "ALL" are "taught" meaning "ALL" are drawn by the Father and yet those in verse 64 ARE NO PART OF THIS "ALL". NONE of this "ALL" fail to be drawn/taught and therefore none of this "ALL" fail to be given ability to come to Christ in faith. It is impossible to draw something toward an object without it also coming to that object at the same time. Drawing refers to the power whereas coming refers to the consequence.

Second, the interpretative part of verse 45 make "every man" equal to "all" in the scripture quotation part. In fact the very same Greek word translated "all" in the quotation part is translated "every man" in the interpretative part. Hence "ALL" equals "every man" but excludes those in verse 64 as they were never drawn/taught and therefore never were "given" the abiltity to come to Christ in faith or enabled to beleive in him.

Further, the word "taught" is defined in the interpretative part to mean both "heard....and learned" as it is impossible to be taught without BOTH hearing the teacher and without comprehending what is being heard. One cannot "have learned" without first having "heard" the teacher and neither can one "have heard" without having not "learned" what was heard as we shall prove.

Having "heard" refers to the internal work of the Father not the external audible speaking of men. This refers to the internal REVELATORY work of God within which was absent in those in verse 64. This refers to what jesus means when he says "he that hath an ear let him hear"! All men he was speaking to had physical ears but he was refering to those whom the Father had given ability to comprehend what he was saying. That ability has to be "given unto him" by the Father:

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

To "hear" in this sense means INNER COMPREHENSION but to "some" (Jn. 6:64) it is "not given." Hence, not "every man" is given the ability to have "HEARD" from the Father. To "hear" in this sense is the ability to comprehend and act upon it. Faith cometh by this kind of hearing and this kind of hearing comes only from the Father not from men and it comes only by His "word of command" (Gr. Rhema - Rom. 10:17) or the spoken command of God that effectually calls light of knowlege into the existence of a darkened heart just as God spoke light into existence in a darkened world:

2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

The substance of faith is provided by the Father as inner revelation that is fully comprehended. This is the Father opening the heart of Lydia to comphrehend the truth of the gospel which is inseparable from having "learned"! Thus "ALL" or "EVERY MAN" thus taught by God always comes to Christ in faith.

In the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22, many men were "bid" or "called" that did not come. They were drawn, but they did not come. However, all that did come were drawn.

The first invitation given by the Master WAS HEEDED BY NO MAN and furnished NO PROPERLY DRESSED GUESTS - this is the general call of the gospel by "word only." - "many are called"

Lu 14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.


The second invitation uses the word "COMPEL" and this invitation was effectual in furnishing EVERY PROPERLY CLOTHED GUEST. - "few are chosen"

Luke 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

The second invitation is the drawing power of the Father that always results in effectual coming to Christ.

What was given is "knowledge". No man can believe in Jesus unless they have heard of him.

What was given is the very thing they could not do without being draw by the Father and that is "COME UNTO ME" in faith which is the very element missing in verse 64 and that is the "it" which must be given by the Father.

The teaching is INNER REVELATION in addition to external and it is effectual hearing by the heart rather than merely external hearing by the ear.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

None doubt the external preaching is necessary! However, the problem is not external but INTERNAL. The gospel is "word only" has no power to change the INTERNAL. However, when the gospel comes by CREATIVE POWER then there is an effectual INTERNAL REVELATION - 2 Cor. 4:6

However, whenever the gospel comes in "word only" there is only that general invitation first mentioned in the wedding parable that furnished no properly dressed guests and is always UNHEEDED:

Lu 14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

Only those who were "COMPELLED" furnished the properly clothed guests for His wedding:

Luke 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

 

[Winman]

Yes it does. The negative is stated in verse 44 "no man can come" and those in John 6:64 are part of that "no man can" demonstrating the Father does not draw "all" men to Christ as they were left in unbelief "from the beginning" and thus never are drawn/taught. What was not "given unto" them in verse 64 was the ability to come/believe in verse 65. Read it slowly "no man can come to me except it were given unto him". What is it that is not given unto him? It is stated in the first part of the verse, the abiltiy "can" to "come to him" in faith, which was absent in verse 64 from "some" of his disciples.

You are again reading into scripture what is not being said. You do that constantly.

Scripture says that no man can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father. That does not mean that every person drawn will come. You can insist ten thousand times that it does, and you will be wrong ten thousand times.

Verse 65 where Jesus says no man can come to him unless it were given him of the Father does refer back to verse 44. But it is verse 45 that explains what is given in verse 65, and how men are drawn in verse 44.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Does verse 45 say God gives men faith? NOPE. Does verse 45 say God regenerates a man so he is able to believe? NOPE.

Verse 45 says God TEACHES men. Those who HEAR and LEARN from the Father come to him, those who are TAUGHT.

So, what men lack is KNOWLEDGE. It is knowledge that draws men to Jesus, it is hearing the gospel preached that draws them to Christ.

 

[Van]

In this passage [John 6:37-65] it is clear that being given by the Father is restricted only to those who actually come to the Son in faith - Jn. 6:37-39 - as "ALL" given by the Father NONE fail to come (v. 39) and therefore NONE are given other than those who do come.

Calvinism relies of simply repeating Calvinist dogma over and over and over.

When the Father "gives someone" to Christ" He spiritually places the person in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit.

When a person comes to Christ, in this context, the person is transferred into Christ by God. In one case this is expressed using a word that means arrive in, but in other cases, the word means to travel toward.

Lets look at a few verses:

37 - All that the Father gives to Me (places spiritually in Me) will come to (arrive in) Me, and the one who comes (travels) to Me, I will certainly not cast out. Obviously entry into Christ rather than professing faith is in view because the person "placed in Christ" will not be cast out. The Calvinist view is simply an attempted rewrite.

44 - No one can come (travel) to Me, unless the Father who sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up (the one who God transferred into Me) on the last day. So the sequence is a person must be drawn, then based of crediting their faith or not, the Father must transfer the person into Christ, and then Christ will raise him or her up on the last day.

45 - From verse 45, we see that of those drawn, only those who have both heard and learned (as determined by God and indicated by Him crediting that faith as righteousness) are then those who come (travel) to Me, indicating God placing them in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit.

64 - As indicated in many passages, Jesus knew the hidden thoughts and motives and attitudes of those He interacted with. Thus of those professing belief and following Him, no doubt saying "Lord, Lord." He knew which of them believed wholeheartedly and which did not go "all in" for Jesus. Therefore He knew who did not believe, and who (Judas) would betray Him.

65 - Now in verse 65, John wraps it all up in a bow, no one can come (travel) to me unless it has been granted him from the Father. God can harden hearts and preclude wholehearted faith, and God can recognize less than wholehearted faith and not credit it as righteousness, and in either case, God does not transfer the person into Christ.

This is obvious and no amount of rewrite and word meaning change will alter the truth.

 

[BobRyan]

In this passage it is clear that being given by the Father is restricted only to those who actually come to the Son in faith - Jn. 6:37-39 - as "ALL"

Sadly -- not one text saying "all drawn WILL come" -- not even in John 6:37-39.

"He came to His Own - and His OWN received Him not" John 1

Likewise, NONE come to the Son that the Father does not "draw" to the Son - Jn. 6:44.

True. But sadly for Calvinism's limited Gospel God says "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

Good news for mankind. Bad news for Calvinism.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Calvinism relies of simply repeating Calvinist dogma over and over and over.

When the Father "gives someone" to Christ" He spiritually places the person in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit.

False and John 17:2 proves this is false! Eternal life is the consequence of being given to the Son not the equivilent to being given as you demand:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Instead "given" refers to be given in election to salvation. As many as the Father has given to him in election He gives eternal life unto. Spiritual union IS eternal life whereas being given RESULTS in eternal life. YOur interpretation is wrong. Being given by the Father is equal to being CHOSEN by the Father "TO salvation" or eternal life.

When a person comes to Christ, in this context, the person is transferred into Christ by God. In one case this is expressed using a word that means arrive in, but in other cases, the word means to travel toward.

False and John 6:35 proves your interpetation is false. Come does not mean PHYSICAL TRAVEL TOWARD but is used for spiritual equivlent to believe in or SPIRITUAL ARRIVAL BY FAITH:

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Here "cometh" is EQUIVILENT to "believeth" as BOTH equally obtain spiritual satisfaction as both "hunger" and "thirst" do not refer to PHYSICAL any more than "cometh" refers to PHYSICAL.

Thus the verses you have misrepresented by false definitions of "cometh" and "given" should read as follows:



37 - All that the Father gives (chosen for) to Me will come to (believe in) Me, and the one who comes (believes in), to Me I will certainly not cast out.

44 - No one can come (beleive in) to Me , unless the Father who sent Me, draws (effectually works within) him, and I will raise him up (on the last day.

45 - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught (inward transformation by divine revelation) of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, (enabled to hear)) and hath learned (effectual comprehension) of the Father, cometh (believeth in) unto me.

64 - But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come (believe in) unto me, except it (belief) were given unto him of my Father.

Finally, both hearing and learning in John 6:45 have NOTHING to do with EXTERNAL actions the human messangers of the gospel but the INTERNAL work "of the Father."

 

[The Biblicist]

Sadly

Do you expect us to believe this written remorse on your part is anything but hypocrisy???

What is sad is you are wrong! The word "all" and "everyone" in verse 45, which verse is given to further explain what He means by "draw" does demand "ALL" drawn/taught do in fact, "every man" thus taught does come in faith to Christ.

Take note that being drawn in verse 44 is the work of the Father not of men or human messengers and the teaching in verse 45 is the work of the Father not of human messangers. Furthermore the clarification of what it means to be "taught" by God is the INTERNAL work of the Father (heard, learned) not the EXTERNAL work of human messengers.

Take note that 45 is mere scripture quotation while verse 45b is inspired interpretation of that quotation and the same Greek word translated "all" in verse 45a is the same Greek word translated "every man" in verse 45b.

Take note that "taught" in verse 45a is defined as enabled INTERNAL hearing and enabled INTERNAL learning as INTERNAL TEACHING requires both ABILITY to hear what is taught BY THE FATHER as well as INTERNAL COMPREHENSION. Note that "ALL" in the quotation are taught and thus NONE of the "ALL" fail to be taught and likewise in the interpretation "EVERY MAN" thus taught does come to faith in Christ and therefore you are wrong! Every man thus drawn does come to Christ and only they are the EXCEPTION to the universal "no man can come" as NONE who merely EXTERNALLY hear and learn come to Christ in faith as shown in John 6:64.

 

[Van]

Not sure why the Calvinist even bothers to post. Misrepresentation and misdirection is all that is offered.

1) When the Father gives someone to the Son for salvation, He transfers the person from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son, He puts them in Christ through the sanctification by the Spirit, setting us apart in Christ. This view is consistent with all scripture, including John 6:37 where those given will not be cast out.

2) Everyone placed in Christ will not be cast out (eternal security!) and will be raised up on the last day (our resurrection to life eternal).
The power over the flesh refers to the circumcision of Christ, which occurs when we are set apart in Christ, where our body of flesh (our sin burden) is removed. John 17:2 and all other scriptures are completely consistent with "given to Me" meaning "being set apart in Me."

3) Next we get John 6:35 and the meaning of "come" redefined to mean trusting in Christ. "Erchomai" is used of persons as "to come from one place into another, and is used of persons "arriving." Thus when a person "believes in Me" according to God's judgment, God puts the person in Christ, giving the person to Christ, and causing the person given "to come to Me" i.e. to arrive in Me.

4) Near the end, the Calvinist charges me with redefining come to me what the lexicon says, rather than what Calvinist doctrine falsely asserts. Incredible nonsense.

5) Finally "learning" is redefined by the Calvinist to mean having information "instilled vial irresistible grace." It never ends folks. obvious falsehood after falsehood. So sad.

 

[The Biblicist]

Not sure why the Calvinist even bothers to post. Misrepresentation and misdirection is all that is offered.

I give undeniable clear explicit detailed biblical evidence your interpretation is wrong and you give nothing but personal OPINIONS without a shred of Bibical evidence in return! You talk about a waste of time responding? You talk about misdirection and misrepresentation!

1. John 6:35 completely repudiates your view of coming to Christ is physical "travel to" IN THIS CONTEXT as this verse clearly defines "come" to mean "believe" or come to Christ in faith.

2. John 17:2 completely repudiates your view of being given to Christ is being placed Spiritually in Christ as spiritual death is being "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) whereas the reverse spiritual life is being brought into Spiritual union with Christ. However, eternal life/spiritual union is the CONSEQUENCE of being given in John 17:2 and not the act of being given as your interpetation demands.

3. John 6:64-65 completely repudiates your view that Christ draws all men
without exception to Himself as those in John 6:64 had never been drawn in the contextual sense of being drawn to Christ as John 6:65 explicity demands.

4. John 6:45 completely repudiates your view that drawing refers to EXTERNAL means by men but is explicitly stated to the be work of the Father which occurs INTERNALLY as fully explained by Paul in 2 Cor. 4:6 as an EFFECTUAL COMMAND by God and as clearly stated by Christ in Matthew 16:17 to be solely the work of the Father rather than "flesh and blood."


5. John 6:45 completely repudiates your view that not "ALL" drawn come to Christ as the scripture quotation demands that "draw" equals "taught" and "ALL" of which this scripture refers to NONE fail to be taught and those in John 6:64-65 were NOT included in that "ALL" because they are explicitly identifed as not being drawn by the Father. Furthermore, "ALL" equals "EVERY MAN" in the explanation of the scripture quotation and "heard" and "learned" equal "taught" in the scripture quotation and NONE fail to come to Christ.

6. John 6;65 completely repudiates your view of "heard" and "learned" as these are results of the Father's work not the results of men and thus these are INTERNAL acts obtained by God's work not the work of men. Having "heard" is equivilent to having "ears to hear" as in Matthew 13:9 which most of those present with literal physical ears listening to him were without and such ability must be given and God does not give it to all but only those given to Christ. "heard" is the result of God giving SPIRITUAL ability whereas "Learned" is a result of God giving SPIRITUAL comprehension of the truth as clearly spelled out in 2 Cor. 4:6 which comes as a direct effectual command of God where the gospel is used by God as the vehicle to express his Word of Command that actually creates INTERNAL SPIRITUAL LIGHT so that this person believes the gospel.

 

[Skandelon]

In this passage it is clear that being given by the Father is restricted only to those who actually come to the Son in faith - Jn. 6:37-39

When Jesus was here in the flesh was he attempting to get thousands of followers and start a really big church? Was he trying to convert as many as he possible could while he had time? Couldn't Jesus have taught a message like Peter did in Acts 2 and had an even better response?

Clearly, Jesus' purpose on earth was to redeem mankind through the cross, but first to disciple a preselected few from Israel to be the foundation for the church, his divinely appointed messengers of the gospel appeal sent to the whole world for reconciliation.

Those are the one's GIVEN TO HIM from the Father. The rest are being hardened, as Jesus HIMSELF said, "For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

That is why others weren't granted to come to him...they weren't enabled to come...NOT UNTIL after he accomplished his redemptive purpose on the cross, for it is ONLY AFTER HE IS RAISED up that He will draw all to himself (Jn 12). And how does He do that? By what means? THE GOSPEL!

 

[Protestant]

It does say that no man can come unless drawn, but it does not say everyone who is drawn shall come, that is a completely different thing......

This is not complicated whatsoever, but you refuse to see it.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

This negative propositional truth may be restated positively:

“All the men whom the Father draws will come to me;” [and I will infallibly glorify those men in the Resurrection].

or

"All the men who come to me were drawn by the Father;" [and I will infallibly glorify those men in the Resurrection].


The proposition of John 6:44 does not say:

“The Father draws all men. Those who come to me were drawn by the Father. Those who do not come to me were also drawn by the Father. Therefore, the difference as to why some come to me and others do not reside in the free will of man -- not in the Father's drawing."

Your fallacious conclusion is exactly opposite to that of Christ’s clear teaching.

But alas, this comes as no surprise.

 

[The Biblicist]

When Jesus was here in the flesh was he attempting to get thousands of followers and start a really big church? Was he trying to convert as many as he possible could while he had time? Couldn't Jesus have taught a message like Peter did in Acts 2 and had an even better response?

Clearly, Jesus' purpose on earth was to redeem mankind through the cross, but first to disciple a preselected few from Israel to be the foundation for the church, his divinely appointed messengers of the gospel appeal sent to the whole world for reconciliation.

This is complete hogwash! The SAME gospel was preached before and after the cross (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; etc.). The same way of salvation and the same Savior (Mt. 7:13-14; Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12).

He did purpose to build a new ADMINISTRATIVE house of God as a living congregational body that consisted of a qualified ministry, members and capable of administering ordinances but this is not to be equated with salvation but with a new public administrative service IN His Kingdom on earth.

Those are the one's GIVEN TO HIM from the Father. The rest are being hardened, as Jesus HIMSELF said, "For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Absolute nonsense! The princples applied here are universal not limited to a restricted time period as both giving and coming are in direct connection with obtaining eternal life - Jn. 17:2. In every generation prior to Israel's existence or during the period between Moses and Christ or between Christ and His secod advent there are always those being hardened by exposure to truth as well as those given to Christ by the Father through election to come to Christ in faith. Just because it is occuring when Christ was on earth within the sphere of redemptive activity (Jewish) does not mean it is unique to that time frame or to that people.

Your feeble attempt here reminds me of New Lighters who claim that since most New Testament epistles were written to churches and church members then the total contents have no application to anyone outside of church membership! The same kind of foolish reasoning lays at the heart of your misinterpretation of these scriptures.

 

[quantumfaith]

When Jesus was here in the flesh was he attempting to get thousands of followers and start a really big church? Was he trying to convert as many as he possible could while he had time? Couldn't Jesus have taught a message like Peter did in Acts 2 and had an even better response?

Clearly, Jesus' purpose on earth was to redeem mankind through the cross, but first to disciple a preselected few from Israel to be the foundation for the church, his divinely appointed messengers of the gospel appeal sent to the whole world for reconciliation.

Those are the one's GIVEN TO HIM from the Father. The rest are being hardened, as Jesus HIMSELF said, "For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

That is why others weren't granted to come to him...they weren't enabled to come...NOT UNTIL after he accomplished his redemptive purpose on the cross, for it is ONLY AFTER HE IS RAISED up that He will draw all to himself (Jn 12). And how does He do that? By what means? THE GOSPEL!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

I give undeniable clear explicit detailed biblical evidence your interpretation is wrong and you give nothing but personal OPINIONS without a shred of Bibical evidence in return! You talk about a waste of time responding? You talk about misdirection and misrepresentation!

1. John 6:35 completely repudiates your view of coming to Christ is physical "travel to" IN THIS CONTEXT as this verse clearly defines "come" to mean "believe" or come to Christ in faith.

2. John 17:2 completely repudiates your view of being given to Christ is being placed Spiritually in Christ as spiritual death is being "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) whereas the reverse spiritual life is being brought into Spiritual union with Christ. However, eternal life/spiritual union is the CONSEQUENCE of being given in John 17:2 and not the act of being given as your interpetation demands.

3. John 6:64-65 completely repudiates your view that Christ draws all men
without exception to Himself as those in John 6:64 had never been drawn in the contextual sense of being drawn to Christ as John 6:65 explicity demands.

4. John 6:45 completely repudiates your view that drawing refers to EXTERNAL means by men but is explicitly stated to the be work of the Father which occurs INTERNALLY as fully explained by Paul in 2 Cor. 4:6 as an EFFECTUAL COMMAND by God and as clearly stated by Christ in Matthew 16:17 to be solely the work of the Father rather than "flesh and blood."


5. John 6:45 completely repudiates your view that not "ALL" drawn come to Christ as the scripture quotation demands that "draw" equals "taught" and "ALL" of which this scripture refers to NONE fail to be taught and those in John 6:64-65 were NOT included in that "ALL" because they are explicitly identifed as not being drawn by the Father. Furthermore, "ALL" equals "EVERY MAN" in the explanation of the scripture quotation and "heard" and "learned" equal "taught" in the scripture quotation and NONE fail to come to Christ.

6. John 6;65 completely repudiates your view of "heard" and "learned" as these are results of the Father's work not the results of men and thus these are INTERNAL acts obtained by God's work not the work of men. Having "heard" is equivilent to having "ears to hear" as in Matthew 13:9 which most of those present with literal physical ears listening to him were without and such ability must be given and God does not give it to all but only those given to Christ. "heard" is the result of God giving SPIRITUAL ability whereas "Learned" is a result of God giving SPIRITUAL comprehension of the truth as clearly spelled out in 2 Cor. 4:6 which comes as a direct effectual command of God where the gospel is used by God as the vehicle to express his Word of Command that actually creates INTERNAL SPIRITUAL LIGHT so that this person believes the gospel.

:wavey::love2: another good post....you caught every falsehood again:thumbsup:

 

[preacher4truth]

When Jesus was here in the flesh was he attempting to get thousands of followers and start a really big church? Was he trying to convert as many as he possible could while he had time? Couldn't Jesus have taught a message like Peter did in Acts 2 and had an even better response?

Clearly, Jesus' purpose on earth was to redeem mankind through the cross, but first to disciple a preselected few from Israel to be the foundation for the church, his divinely appointed messengers of the gospel appeal sent to the whole world for reconciliation.

Those are the one's GIVEN TO HIM from the Father. The rest are being hardened, as Jesus HIMSELF said, "For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

That is why others weren't granted to come to him...they weren't enabled to come...NOT UNTIL after he accomplished his redemptive purpose on the cross, for it is ONLY AFTER HE IS RAISED up that He will draw all to himself (Jn 12). And how does He do that? By what means? THE GOSPEL!

His purpose was to 'redeem mankind'? So you're a universalist now? If His purpose was to redeem 'mankind' then that has failed. He hasn't. Instead He has redeemed His people and His elect as He said He would. Matthew 1:21, 2 Timothy 2:8ff and much more.

His purpose was to save His people, not 'mankind'. Are you now following Rob Bell and Bryan McClaren in addition to Roger Olson? Your teaching and sensationalistic post borders on universalism and other errors.

I had to laugh at this response from you as it is weak in it's exegesis, and, as a magician puts the same rabbit in the hat that he pulls out, and makes pretense of a miracle, so do you. Your interpretation and conclusion is purely eisegesis and sentimental thought. You put into Scripture things that simply are not there. I've observed this from you for a few years now.

All here isn't all. Not all have been drawn by the Gospel and you kow this and have a huge problem with it as well. For you to believe your delusion you have to turn not 'a' blind eye to reality but 'both'.

 

[preacher4truth]

:wavey::love2: another good post....you caught every falsehood again:thumbsup:

It's easier than shooting fish in a barrel. :laugh:

 

[preacher4truth]

This is complete hogwash!

YUUUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And that is enough. Why go any further?

 

[preacher4truth]

What is glaringly apparent in all of this is that some are teaching Jesus has redeemed 'some' people but only if 'they DO' something. That is totally ridiculous and is false teaching.

God is in control of this, not man and his will.

He has certainly redeemed some (His people) out of sins slave market and all of these WILL experience this redemption, and it is NOT dependent upon ANY of them DOING a THING. That my friends is salvation and it excludes this decisional salvation that attempts to supplant God's purpose via mans 'free will'.