Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement.

[George Antonios]

George,
That says, "through faith", not "by faith".

Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[George Antonios]

If a person believes they can lose their salvation, then they are working for it.

Um, who said that I or @Barry Johnson believe that a man can lose his salvation?!

 

[Dave G]

Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

I agree that one of the signs of God justifying believers ( making one just in His sight by the blood of His Son and by His grace ) is by their faith.
But do you know of a passage that specifically states that believers are saved because of their faith?

I'm not asking for a passage that implies that people are saved by faith, I'm asking for passages that declare that faith in Jesus Christ actually leads to one being saved.

 

[Sai]

Um, who said that I or @Barry Johnson believe that a man can lose his salvation?!

No one. What you questioned was how Arminians glorify themselves, I think. And the joke was that the doctrinal error of them is that they teach one loses salvation by being bad therefore they glorify themselves!

 

[Barry Johnson]

I'm sorry, Barry, I have to disagree with you.
To me, faith is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ), not the means.

To make faith into a work that we do in order to obligated God into saving us, is still works from my perspective.
Salvation is a gift, not a reward for good works.

In addition, I don't see you explaining why some believe and why others do not access this salvation by faith, when I see the Scriptures telling me why..
Can you point me to the Scriptures that give us this answer?

I've already done that Barry.

What "components"?
What God "requires" to be saved?

Again, I'm sorry Barry, we'll have to disagree.

I'll give you one more example in the hope that perhaps this may shed some light on what I see when I read the Scriptures.
Take Romans 8:29-30:

" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Here's what I see when I reads this:

1) For whom He foreknew...that's individuals, not a "corporate body".
2) Those that were foreknown are predestinated, called, justified and glorified.
3) No one outside of this process can enjoy any of the benefits of the rest, because it is clearly stated " For whom He did foreknow, He..." did all these things.

One of those things is justfication, or being made just in the eyes of God.
We know from the scriptures that justification only happens for those who have believed, for those who are the elect:

" Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth." ( Romans 8:33 ).

Therefore, being justified freely through the blood of Christ only applies to the believer.
Therefore, it is still "limited" no matter how one looks at it.

Evidence of what ?
1¶Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3¶Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4¶By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5¶By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
This Alone disproves what your saying .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry,

You have the right to put me in whatever category you wish, but I'm not a Calvinist.
Calvinists are people who believe and teach every single thing that a mere man, John Calvin, believed and taught about the Bible.
A good example to relate this principle to, would be the terms, "Wesleyan", or "Lutheran".

Secondly, people like me are not under the impression that Jesus death is what saves.
We are under the belief that God the Father chose a people, gave His Son for them, and Christ came to fulfill the Law and submit Himself to the actions of wicked men in order to complete the mission that His Father gave Him...

To take out of the nations a people for His name's sake;
A people zealous of good works and who love Him from the heart.

His children were reconciled to Him by the death of His Son.
This means that when Christ was on the cross, He had on His mind the names of all His sheep, and that is who He died for.
His suffering, death and rising again did not, nor will it ever, secure the salvation of anyone outside of those whose names were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world ( Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8 ).

In other words, we are under the firm conviction that the work that He did on the cross and during His life, was for His sheep and only for His sheep.
Salvation for them was and is not a "potential", but a sure and actual work on the cross.
When His work for them was at an end, Christ said, "It is finished".


The promise of eternal life was secured, on the cross, when the believer's sins were nailed to it with Him.
Those sins were laid upon Him...
Not the sins of all mankind.
If they were, then even unbelievers would have nothing to answer for.

Forgiveness of sins is directly related to Christ's death on the cross.
It does not come when we have believed, but rather before that.

Therefore, the Gospel, in its entirety, is every piece of truth about how and why God saves anyone, and all the things that were accomplished for them.

Regrettably, I'm sorry that you and I do not see these things eye to eye, Barry.
I hope someday that that changes.


May God bless you sir.

Romans 5 proves my point . Notice the two aspects.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
No sinner was saved by his death ..we are saved BY HIS LIFE !! All humans are reconciled by the cross but we are saved by his life . The reconciliation at the cross did not save you .
Col 2 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
is what happened. But weve not saved until ....
ephesians 1 13¶In whom ye also trusted, After that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also After !!!!!!!!!!! that ye Believed !!!!!!!!, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Barry Johnson]

I'm sorry, Barry, I have to disagree with you.
To me, faith is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ), not the means.

To make faith into a work that we do in order to obligated God into saving us, is still works from my perspective.
Salvation is a gift, not a reward for good works.

In addition, I don't see you explaining why some believe and why others do not access this salvation by faith, when I see the Scriptures telling me why..
Can you point me to the Scriptures that give us this answer?

I've already done that Barry.

What "components"?
What God "requires" to be saved?

Again, I'm sorry Barry, we'll have to disagree.

I'll give you one more example in the hope that perhaps this may shed some light on what I see when I read the Scriptures.
Take Romans 8:29-30:

" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Here's what I see when I reads this:

1) For whom He foreknew...that's individuals, not a "corporate body".
2) Those that were foreknown are predestinated, called, justified and glorified.
3) No one outside of this process can enjoy any of the benefits of the rest, because it is clearly stated " For whom He did foreknow, He..." did all these things.

One of those things is justfication, or being made just in the eyes of God.
We know from the scriptures that justification only happens for those who have believed, for those who are the elect:

" Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth." ( Romans 8:33 ).

Therefore, being justified freely through the blood of Christ only applies to the believer.
Therefore, it is still "limited" no matter how one looks at it.

Yes the elect most often are saved people . So those that are Elected by God for service ( believer's in the case of romans 8 ) who can lay a charge against them. Notice it does not say " who shall lay anything to the charge of those God chose to be saved before they existed , it is God who has already Justified them before they believed the Gospel and saved them at the cross before they recieved Jesus "

 

[Barry Johnson]

George,
That says, "through faith", not "by faith".


Definition of 'through':
" from beginning to end of (an experience or activity, typically a tedious or stressful one)."

Do you see the difference?
If salvation were by faith, then I would agree with you in this instance.
But the Scriptures do not say, "we are saved by our faith".

I see that we as believers do many things by faith, but gaining God's favor is not one of them.

This is where I see the legal language of the Scriptures making all the difference.
Can you find anywhere in God's word that eternal life is said to be gained by faith?

If so, please post it.

In the interim, I also clearly see that eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ).
If it were gained by an act of faith, then shouldn't the Scriptures say that it is a reward?

How was Abraham Justified ?
Also Rom 5
By whom also we have Access by Faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[Barry Johnson]

George,
That says, "through faith", not "by faith".


Definition of 'through':
" from beginning to end of (an experience or activity, typically a tedious or stressful one)."

Do you see the difference?
If salvation were by faith, then I would agree with you in this instance.
But the Scriptures do not say, "we are saved by our faith".

I see that we as believers do many things by faith, but gaining God's favor is not one of them.

This is where I see the legal language of the Scriptures making all the difference.
Can you find anywhere in God's word that eternal life is said to be gained by faith?

If so, please post it.

In the interim, I also clearly see that eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ).
If it were gained by an act of faith, then shouldn't the Scriptures say that it is a reward?

I've noticed how you seem to approach the scriptures. Your using ( which is calvinistic usually ) Your using .....
syllogisms

noun

1. an instance of a form of reasoning in which a conclusion is drawn from two given or assumed propositions (premises); a common or middle term is present in the two premises but not in the conclusion, which may be invalid (e.g. all dogs are animals; all animals have four legs; therefore all dogs have four legs ).
   • deductive reasoning as distinct from induction.
   • Your arguing from the deductive reasoning and not the inductive method, that's why your not dealing with the text , rather your pointing to a system. Thats why I keep seeing Calvinism in your responses no matter how often you keep saying your not a Cavinist . A good book on this is ' The faith of God's elect by John f parkinson . Its a small booklet and it really helped me see how I was doing exactly what your doing now .

 

[1689Dave]

'like a pat on the back '? isn't that deserved or merited ..I thought it was unconditional election ?

Not if someone loves you. Even scoundrels get a pat on the back from those who love them.

 

[1689Dave]

God gives the power . simple

So you in your self-righteousness can save yourself? He gives us a new heart instead that does all the things Christians do, by nature. You think if someone acts like a Christian they will turn into one. = pure hypocrisy.

 

[1689Dave]

But as many as recieved him ( as the verse stands )

They received him because they were born of God, not the will of the flesh.

 

[1689Dave]

Yes we don't 'birth ' ourselves. This is a work of God . We do not have the supernatural ability to baptise ourselves into the Body of Christ..The Holy Spirit does this ..We don't have the same ability as the Holy Spirit. We are human . After we Believe God does the work .

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. = God must save you before you can believe in any true sense.

 

[Barry Johnson]

So you in your self-righteousness can save yourself? He gives us a new heart instead that does all the things Christians do, by nature. You think if someone acts like a Christian they will turn into one. = pure hypocrisy.

You have an uncanny way of turning what I say on its head lol . Every single person has been given the gift of life , breath , a measure of Faith and the ability to respond positively to the Gospel . The bible read without a system telling you what God can and cannot do may affect this ability to read .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. = God must save you before you can believe in any true sense.

The ' Fruit ' is also Joy , peace , ect

 

[Marooncat79]

You have an uncanny way of turning what I say on its head lol . Every single person has been given the gift of life , breath , a measure of Faith -

Not all have faith

II Thess 3:2

 

[Barry Johnson]

They received him because they were born of God, not the will of the flesh.

context, the Achillies heal of calvinism.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6¶There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9That was the true Light, which lighteth Every man that cometh into the world.
10¶He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as recieved him , to them Gave he ( notice its AFTER they recieve) power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[1689Dave]

You have an uncanny way of turning what I say on its head lol . Every single person has been given the gift of life , breath , a measure of Faith and the ability to respond positively to the Gospel . The bible read without a system telling you what God can and cannot do may affect this ability to read .

Prove it from scripture. You'll find the context defeats your claims.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Prove it from scripture. You'll find the context defeats your claims.

You putting calvinist baggage onto the verse . A child reading this for the first time would simply read . All those that recieve Jesus through believing will get born again . Simple

 

[1689Dave]

context, the Achillies heal of calvinism.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6¶There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9That was the true Light, which lighteth Every man that cometh into the world.
10¶He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as recieved him , to them Gave he ( notice its AFTER they recieve) power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

They received Christ after being born of God. Not by the will of the flesh.