Go out in Jesus Name

[Charlie24]

You see Cathode, if the RCC can't man-up with when they really began then they can't be traced in history and the whole thing is a shame.

Cathode, tell us about the Nicene Creed, when it began and what it was.

 

[Cathode]

You see Cathode, if the RCC can't man-up with when they really began then they can't be traced in history and the whole thing is a shame.

It’s about manning up is it? How about reading up on Church history and Fathers.

Every Bible aloner as different start dates of the Catholic Church, all without historical evidence, all just narrative.

Bible aloners don’t seem to even know where the bible came from mostly.

You have been fed complete lies.

 

[Charlie24]

It’s about manning up is it? How about reading up on Church history and Fathers.

Every Bible aloner as different start dates of the Catholic Church, all without historical evidence, all just narrative.

Bible aloners don’t seem to even know where the bible came from mostly.

You have been fed complete lies.

Other than you and few other Catholics I've met through years, my 12 years old grand-daughter could put them to shame.

No, my friend, all that history was written by fallen men that eventually formed an institution called the RCC.

 

[Psalty]

It’s about manning up is it? How about reading up on Church history and Fathers.

Every Bible aloner as different start dates of the Catholic Church, all without historical evidence, all just narrative.

Bible aloners don’t seem to even know where the bible came from mostly.

You have been fed complete lies.

Hey Cathode, I really like your OP. Thank you for the exhortation, brother!

I have a 2 books that I use heavily when doing bible study:
The Apostolic Fathers by Michael Holmes, &
Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot. (Pre-Nicea)

I have been greatly encouraged by these early church writings, particularly Polycarp’s letter to the Philippians which you can literally feel the Apostle John come through in his writing!
Additionally, Ignatius’ letter to Polycarp is incredible and you can see the handing off of the same principles as the Books of Titus/1-2 Tim.
There are some others that are good as well.

While I can see why the catholic and orthodox church like these, I dont see any specific justification for these churches by these books.

If you ever want to start a separate thread on the Church Fathers, Im sure I would participate and enjoy it!

 

[Charlie24]

Other than you and few other Catholics I've met through years, my 12 years old grand-daughter could put them to shame.

No, my friend, all that history was written by fallen men that eventually formed an institution called the RCC.

@Cathode

There's a Catholic question I can't seem to get answered. It's a reasonable and serious question.

The early Church fathers believed in "outside the Church there is no salvation," well obviously I'm not in the RCC.

Now the RCC says one can be saved outside the Church through no fault of their own in having no knowledge of the RCC.

I have quite a bit of knowledge in RCC doctrine and reject it straight out.

Don't want to make this about you, so according to the RCC, not you, is it possible for me to be saved?

A simple yes or no is preferred, and with an explanation if you care to give it.

 

[Walter]

@Cathode

There's a Catholic question I can't seem to get answered. It's a reasonable and serious question.

The early Church fathers believed in "outside the Church there is no salvation," well obviously I'm not in the RCC.

Now the RCC says one can be saved outside the Church through no fault of their own in having no knowledge of the RCC.

I have quite a bit of knowledge in RCC doctrine and reject it straight out.

Don't want to make this about you, so according to the RCC, not you, is it possible for me to be saved?

A simple yes or no is preferred, and with an explanation if you care to give it.

Actually, the teaching of The Catholic Church is:

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes solely from Christ through his Body, the Church ("outside the Church there is no salvation"). However, this does not mean only formal Catholics are saved; those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ or the Church but seek God sincerely may achieve salvation.

I think you can determine what this means.
.

 

[Ben1445]

Actually, the teaching of The Catholic Church is:

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes solely from Christ through his Body, the Church ("outside the Church there is no salvation").

Salvation is through the assembly instead of faith. If you’re not in the assembly then you are not saved.

However, this does not mean only formal Catholics are saved; those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ or the Church but seek God sincerely may achieve salvation.

If you don’t know Christ and wouldn’t know to join the assembly instead of have faith in Jesus, you get a pass if you’re a pretty good person. Hence, the other statement is not truly believed.

So if you know about the Catholic Church and haven’t joined it, your lost.
If you don’t know about it, just be good and keep away from people who might try to tell you about it and give you one more thing to do in order to work for your salvation.

I think you can determine what this means.
.

That is the way it sounded to me.

 

[Walter]

Salvation is through the assembly instead of faith. If you’re not in the assembly then you are not saved.


If you don’t know Christ and wouldn’t know to join the assembly instead of have faith in Jesus, you get a pass if you’re a pretty good person. Hence, the other statement is not truly believed.

So if you know about the Catholic Church and haven’t joined it, your lost.
If you don’t know about it, just be good and keep away from people who might try to tell you about it and give you one more thing to do in order to work for your salvation.

That is the way it sounded to me.

That is a distortion of what the Church teaches. The Church doesn't teach works based salvation. Do you have the right relationship with Christ? Have you sincerely sought God? I have read many of your posts on the BB, I know the answer to these questions.

 

[Ben1445]

That is a distortion of what the Church teaches. The Church doesn't teach works based salvation. Do you have the right relationship with Christ? Have you sincerely sought God? I have read many of your posts on the BB, I know the answer to these questions.

It is what you said.

 

[Psalty]

Both Catholicism and Orthodoxy believe that you must be part of the body of Christ to be saved. Every Christian believes this.

From what I understand, Catholics are more open to considering that people may be saved from other religions like Islam or Buddhism, or a Native Jungle tribe, or from Protestantism, going to Rom 2 talking about inward people of righteousness.

The rub is always, are people who know of Jesus, the Bible, and the Catholic Church but walk away from it saved? From my understanding, how that RCC teaching is understood among Catholic Clergy is debated and not universal.

The Orthodox church is more rigid. They believe that you must be chatechized and baptized into their church. If not, God ***could add you to the church*** like the thief on the cross, but this would be highly, Highly unusual and unlikely. But they like to say He could so they dont come across as too exclusive.

 

[Charlie24]

Actually, the teaching of The Catholic Church is:

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes solely from Christ through his Body, the Church ("outside the Church there is no salvation"). However, this does not mean only formal Catholics are saved; those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ or the Church but seek God sincerely may achieve salvation.

I think you can determine what this means.
.

It's for sure the Reformers were condemned as heretics and could not be saved outside the RCC.

So it seems the RCC has made compromise that the protestants can be saved, but it's rather vague.

I suppose no clear answer will ever be known.

 

[Cathode]

@Cathode

There's a Catholic question I can't seem to get answered. It's a reasonable and serious question.

The early Church fathers believed in "outside the Church there is no salvation," well obviously I'm not in the RCC.

Now the RCC says one can be saved outside the Church through no fault of their own in having no knowledge of the RCC.

I have quite a bit of knowledge in RCC doctrine and reject it straight out.

Don't want to make this about you, so according to the RCC, not you, is it possible for me to be saved?

A simple yes or no is preferred, and with an explanation if you care to give it.

Yes, where there is life there is always hope for anyone.

Ultimately Jesus is Judge, no one else has the right to judge anyone’s salvation. Jesus warns about this when He says “Judge not lest yea be Judged “.
Judgement is between the soul and God.

However, people can point out dangers.

Now, if you are Baptised you are included into the Church, baptism saves you, provided you remain in Grace.

Mortal sin cuts you off from grace and puts you back outside the church. We see the same principle with the Israelites if someone was ritually unclean, you could not rejoin the community or eat with them. This was a prefigurement of the Church in the New Covenant where you can not partake of the Eucharist unless you are in a state of Grace.

“Saul said nothing that day, for he thought, “Something must have happened to David to make him ceremonially unclean—surely he is unclean.” 1 Sam 20:26

David could not partake of the Sacred meal in other words.

This was treated very seriously by the Israelites and even more so by Catholics regarding the Eucharist which is actual Communion with Our Lord Himself.
Whoever receives the Body and Blood in an unworthy manner is guilty of the Lord’s Body.
To be guilty of someone’s body is to be guilty of murder.

In the old covenant the prescriptions were carried out by the priests generally to restore ritual cleanliness depending on what it was. Then a man can be at table with the community.

That’s why Peter was criticised in Acts 11:3 “ You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them.” To eat with people is to confer brotherhood, covenant family inclusion, but also to disavow your own for others outside, it’s very serious.

In the New Covenant, Christ’s Priests declare clean and unclean, given the power by Christ bind and loose sin so that people can partake of the Eucharist, Jesus Body and Blood which gives Eternal Life.

“ He who eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood has Eternal Life and I will raise him up on the Last Day “

You must be ritually clean to partake of the Eucharistic ritual.
You must have garment of Faith and Grace to attend the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.

None of us is personally worthy but we must be at least ritually worthy to partake. We must be in a state of Grace and Faith.

All of Scripture points to Jesus in the Eucharist.
Therefore generally for professing Christians, if you can partake of the Eucharist worthily, you are in the Church.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, where there is life there is always hope for anyone.

Ultimately Jesus is Judge, no one else has the right to judge anyone’s salvation. Jesus warns about this when He says “Judge not lest yea be Judged “.
Judgement is between the soul and God.

However, people can point out dangers.

Now, if you are Baptised you are included into the Church, baptism saves you, provided you remain in Grace.

Mortal sin cuts you off from grace and puts you back outside the church. We see the same principle with the Israelites if someone was ritually unclean, you could not rejoin the community or eat with them. This was a prefigurement of the Church in the New Covenant where you can not partake of the Eucharist unless you are in a state of Grace.

“Saul said nothing that day, for he thought, “Something must have happened to David to make him ceremonially unclean—surely he is unclean.” 1 Sam 20:26

David could not partake of the Sacred meal in other words.

This was treated very seriously by the Israelites and even more so by Catholics regarding the Eucharist which is actual Communion with Our Lord Himself.
Whoever receives the Body and Blood in an unworthy manner is guilty of the Lord’s Body.
To be guilty of someone’s body is to be guilty of murder.

In the old covenant the prescriptions were carried out by the priests generally to restore ritual cleanliness depending on what it was. Then a man can be at table with the community.

That’s why Peter was criticised in Acts 11:3 “ You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them.” To eat with people is to confer brotherhood, covenant family inclusion, but also to disavow your own for others outside, it’s very serious.

In the New Covenant, Christ’s Priests declare clean and unclean, given the power by Christ bind and loose sin so that people can partake of the Eucharist, Jesus Body and Blood which gives Eternal Life.

“ He who eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood has Eternal Life and I will raise him up on the Last Day “

You must be ritually clean to partake of the Eucharistic ritual.
You must have garment of Faith and Grace to attend the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.

None of us is personally worthy but we must be at least ritually worthy to partake. We must be in a state of Grace and Faith.

All of Scripture points to Jesus in the Eucharist.
Therefore generally for professing Christians, if you can partake of the Eucharist worthily, you are in the Church.

So many works I must perform in the RCC to be born-again. My faith is not enough, there are ceremonies I must do to seal my salvation.

That is the base of my rejection, a total rejection, believing I can only be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

So there is no way Charlie24 is considered saved by the RCC. That does answer my question. Thanks

 

[Charlie24]

So many works I must perform in the RCC to be born-again. My faith is not enough, there are ceremonies I must do to seal my salvation.

That is the base of my rejection, a total rejection, believing I can only be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

So there is no way Charlie24 is considered saved by the RCC. That does answer my question. Thanks

We do those things you have mentioned in your post, but here is the difference in the Catholic and the Protestant.

We only make repentance and faith mandatory for salvation, the rest you have mentioned we do because we are already saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Cathode]

It's for sure the Reformers were condemned as heretics and could not be saved outside the RCC.

So it seems the RCC has made compromise that the protestants can be saved, but it's rather vague.

I suppose no clear answer will ever be known.

The original heretics are in a different category, because they had the truth and obstinately rejected it.

Those that came after are separated brethren.

 

[Charlie24]

The original heretics are in a different category, because they had the truth and obstinately rejected it.

Those that came after are separated brethren.

According to the RCC, not you, not your opinion, is Charlie24 a heretic or a separated brother?

 

[Cathode]

We do those things you have mentioned in your post, but here is the difference in the Catholic and the Protestant.

We only make repentance and faith mandatory for salvation, the rest you have mentioned we do because we are already saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Salvation is a path not just a moment and the way is narrow.
There is a moment you find the path, but then you must follow it.

People selling you once off easy salvation are the broad path.

Faith must be working through love to be salvific . Dead faith by itself cannot save, even if it can move mountains.

 

[Cathode]

According to the RCC, not you, not your opinion, is Charlie24 a heretic or a separated brother?

You are separated brethren.

You did not cause the original rebellion against Christs Church, you are a victim of it.

 

[Charlie24]

You are separated brethren.

You did not cause the original rebellion against Christs Church, you are a victim of it.

Oh, ok, I'm learning something here.

The RCC then blames the Reformers as the heretics but not the followers seeing they are victims.

These are things we need to know.

 

[Charlie24]

Salvation is a path not just a moment and the way is narrow.
There is a moment you find the path, but then you must follow it.

People selling you once off easy salvation are the broad path.

Faith must be working through love to be salvific . Dead faith by itself cannot save, even if it can move mountains.

We may have difference of definitions of what dead faith means.

James gave an example of Abrahams faith being a live faith vs. a dead faith.

Abrahams faith was proven through his actions, not faith and works together equaling justification.

There's no way we can take James as meaning faith + works = salvation/justification.

Paul makes it clear that we are justified apart from works.