?God has no faith!? ... prove it here.

Amen. Without a new nature, there is no faith. It is all of grace.</font>[/QUOTE]So long as you are not saying that grace is what saves, we can agree. However,I detect that you are saying that the individual is saved BY grace, and I would like you to prove that by explaining how grace saves. Exactly what is this "power" that grace has that actually saves the individual. When a man falls overboard and is in the water, what is the actual mechanism that saves the man from the water. Is it grace and grace alone?

Think it through before you answer, I weary of trite answers to this question! Exactly how does grace save? </font>[/QUOTE]Im a new comer to this forum, But here goes anyway. We are saved by grace alone, but it's God's grace and His alone.The power is God.

 

If it is God that saves, then it is not grace that saves!

What power does grace have that saves?

 

Why not it's God's, it may not be grace that saves, but it is by God's grace that we are saved, so tell me the differance.

 

We can sit around and hash this back and forth for the rest of our lives, we really wont know the answer until we see the Father, so whats the point. What we should be doing is tell others about Gods grace, mercey, and love.

Thanks Danny

 

Everything that comes from God is Good.
Everything that comes from Man is Bad.

Only by the Grace of God can Man ever be Good.

 

Excuse me? Who made the rule and where is it found that EVERYTHING has to be supported with scripture when the writers of scripture themselves say or elude to the fact that there is more than scripture contains?
</font>[/QUOTE]Scripture expresses what you wrote.

Romans 1

John 21:25, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written."

 

So, by your own words, are you saying that if I gave my son a car for his birthday, that this is "bad"? What logic are you using here? You are supposing that man is completely evil in all that he does. You forget, that even in his fallen condition man still has the "image of God". You cannot separate man from God

 

I dont' separate man from God. Sin did that in the Garden of Eden.

 

The translation: "faith of Jesus Christ" (Rom.3:22; Gal. 2:16, 3:22), is incorrect.

The phrase in the Greek is: "pisteos Iesou Christou", which is in the genitive of object, and the right way to render this in English was be: "faith in Jesus Christ"

There is no Scripture evidence to show, or even suggest, that God, or Jesus Christ Themselves had faith. As faith is to be placed in someone else, who does God place His faith in? God may be said to be "faithful", but this does not mean that He needs to have "faith" for this. They are two different words, with different meanings.

 

Only to a point, as the "image of God" in man has not been destroyed by the fall. 1 Corinthians 11:7 informs us that we are still in the "Image of God"

 

Only to a point, as the "image of God" in man has not been destroyed by the fall. 1 Corinthians 11:7 informs us that we are still in the "Image of God" </font>[/QUOTE]But the point of sin is enough to seperate us eternally from God therefore trumping this nebulous "image of God" and rendering it of no saving potential whatsoever.

 

Only to a point, as the "image of God" in man has not been destroyed by the fall. 1 Corinthians 11:7 informs us that we are still in the "Image of God" </font>[/QUOTE]But the point of sin is enough to seperate us eternally from God therefore trumping this nebulous "image of God" and rendering it of no saving potential whatsoever. </font>[/QUOTE]So, why do you think Christ came to save us, if it were not because we are made in His image? I think your statement: "trumping this nebulous "image of God" and rendering it of no saving potential whatsoever", is inaccurate. It is because of the fact that we are in the "image of God", that He even bothered to save any of us. Look at Hebrews 2:16, where it says that Jesus did not come to save angels, but humans. For the very reason I have given.

 

Don't overlook the entire passage surrounding Heb 2:16.

There seems to be a multi-faceted reason for Christ to come.

1. To destroy the devil
2. To deliver us from our bondage to sin
3. To intercede as our High Priest

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The "image of God" is never stressed in the New Testament as being a reason why God sent his only begotten son into the world as our savior. Love is stressed. Mercy is stressed. Grace is stressed.

 

"For by (by means of) grace are ye saved...

It is incredible to run across someone so intent on arguing this topic who expresses such confusion on what grace is.

Grace is God's unmerited, undeserved, unearned, unsought act of favor toward men perfectly expressed in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God sovereignly determines who that grace is extended to.

Grace does not have power... it is the power to save us. It is the description of the divine action that secures our salvation.

 

"For by (by means of) grace are ye saved...</font>[/QUOTE]You continue to fail to understand Ephesians 2:8,9. God is the one who saves man! He does so because HE favors (graces) man. In other words, we are the apple of his eye, even though we have sinned, we continue to be in His favor, His Grace, And it is through our faith alone that we are saved (the free gift of God). It is not through anything we may be or have or do, lest anyone should boast.

It is incredible to run across someone so intent on arguing this topic who expresses such confusion on what grace is.

Grace is God's unmerited, undeserved, unearned, unsought act of favor toward men perfectly expressed in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God sovereignly determines who that grace is extended to.

Grace does not have power... it is the power to save us. It is the description of the divine action that secures our salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]You were doing good until you got to the point of saying that I am confused about the meaning of Grace. In other words, you are wrong from the gitgo! It is you who refuses to know the truth.

You fail to understand that grace is not an "ACT of favor", but is instead FAVOR from which other ACTS are spawned. Jesus is a gift to mankind out of God's favor for man. Salvation from the second death is a gift to man out of God's Grace toward man.

Look at it this way, The ring that you put on your wife's finger is not love, it is nothing but dumb metal and stone! It is however a token or Gift to her out of your love for her. When you buy her anniversary gifts, those gifts are not love, they are merely tokens that demonstrate to her your feelings of love for her. You see, you cannot give your love to your wife! You can only give her tokens that demonstrate to her that you love her. If you wife did not respond properly but instead threw your gifts to her in the trash it or refused to accept them, it wouldn't be very long that you would realize your wife has no FAITH in your love, and you would soon be single again!

God's grace is the same. He cannot give us his grace in any tangible way, so he gives us Gifts out of his grace....Jesus, His son, His Holy Spirit, His Holy Word containing all the promises of everlasting life through faith, and for those who have faith in him, His Salvation from the second death, into eternal life with the Christ!

You simply do not understand Scott J! I hope this aids your understanding.

 

Yes. Salvation is a demonstration of His favor. This "favor" is inseparable from the accompanying action.

You said elsewhere that grace was an "attribute". Please make up your mind.

These two sentences are in direct contradiction to one another. On the one hand you claim that our faith (the direct result of an independently made "good decision") is the cause of our salvation... then on the other you say it is nothing that we can boast about.

If our salvation is the result of a good decision on our part then it is certainly something to boast about.

You were doing good until you got to the point of saying that I am confused about the meaning of Grace. In other words, you are wrong from the gitgo! It is you who refuses to know the truth.[/quote][/b] I don't think so considering that you have persistently contradicted yourself, failed to account for scriptures that contradict your interpretations of passages you have attempted to use, and attempt to parse things down to the level that they become effectively meaningless.

You are creating a false dichotomy for no other reason than convenience to your position. "Favor" is meaningless with regard to this subject if it is not accompanined by action.

Correct. God gave Him. This is grace.

Absolutely. And it is either a) caused by God's unmerited favor toward an individual or b) by a man's merit for choosing correctly to have faith.

Your analogy is flawed in that it materializes something that isn't material.

However, it might be useful to a certain extent. The gift itself is not love. But the giving of the gift (among other things) is an expression of love. But love cannot be separated from the expression. Without willful, chosen action, there is no love.

The analogy doesn't follow.

I am not God. I cannot claim the power to open blinded eyes. My wife's choice of whether to accept my gifts does not hinge on her being spiritually dead or alive.

No. It simply is not.

I don't think I said that He gives us grace in this sense. You seem to be constructed another straw man.

Yes. But He also grants a quickened spirit, a new born spiritual nature by which faith in Him is an inevitable manifestation.

I do understand. I understand what you are arguing. I understand what I am arguing... and am comparing the two with as open a mind as I can.

It is still my belief that your position is not only wrong but also in contradiction to the teachings of scripture in the context of the whole.

 

Reading the various arguments on this post, it apears to me that some don't know what they are on about. I think there is a lot of confusion here.

 

An attribute is that which is true of the one possessing it! God owns his grace Lock, stock, and barrel! And by george there is not one tittle of it that he can give to another, because if he did, the grace would no longer be God's grace, he's given it away! So, he gives gifts that show he has (possesses) GRACE! He Gave his only son, His Word, His Holy Spirit, and Salvation to man who believes in Him. Those are wonderful gifts out of God's grace. Ephesians 2:8,9 express that truth when it says, "for by Grace (the condition that God is operating in) we are saved through faith (all that we can possibly have) and not of ourselves (not by any merit or advantage that we perceive we may have) it (salvation) is the gift of God, not of works (deeds that we do) lest any man should boast.

In what way and to whom can you boast regarding your faith? Can you say that you caused that which you claim faith in? All you can claim is that you chose to believe what has been done in your behalf. Wow! Bragging rights! What glory there is believing what someone else has done for you?

I have not contradicted myself, nor have I demeaned anything of scripture relating to God's grace, God's salvation, God's gifts to mankind. You simply don't get it! You don't want to get it! You are so self satisfied with your man made doctrines that you cannot see the true spiritual things.

Prove it! The action you speak of is the gifts given by God so that man will believe and thereby be saved.

Jesus is a man, God gave us a man out of his grace, so that we might believe! The act of giving the man is the gift out of God's grace, the man, being God, is also out of the Father's grace. If God were not "in his grace" what do you think would exist of sinful man? God would apply HIS justice to man and no man would survive...End of the human species! BUT because God is "in his grace", man has every opportunity afforded to man to hear the word, to believe and thereby be saved.

What merit is there in believing? One person's believing is not evident to another! You cannot walk up to a total stranger on the street and identify that person as a believer without first asking! Belief is not something that one displays. The words "I believe" are not written on one's forehead for all to see!

God did all the work, but man must believe in order to be saved!

The principle holds true regardless of your inability to see it!

Can you give your love to another? No! but you can give them tokens that express your love, Valentines day has its whole basis set on that principle. You cannot give your love to another no matter what you do! Yes you can give your life for another but that is an act out of your love, and not love itself!

quote:If you wife did not respond properly but instead threw your gifts to her in the trash it or refused to accept them, it wouldn't be very long that you would realize your wife has no FAITH in your love, and you would soon be single again!

BEEN THERE, and know how it works!

No. It simply is not.</font>[/QUOTE]Then it is up to you to prove!

NO strawman, but just the same, it is yours to prove!

Define a "quickened spirit".

But you have offered nothing in rebuttal! How is it possible to know that what you believe is correct and what I believe is incorrect? You simply offer nothing that refutes what I believe.