?God has no faith!? ... prove it here.

Nice try but you missed again!

It is ONLY while God is behaving in accordance with HIS GRACE, that man's salvation through man's faith is possible! If God were being JUST, no man could be saved for all have sinned. But God is being Gracious, looking on mankind with favor, looking for those who have FAITH in Him. It is these that God saves out of his grace...NOT BY HIS GRACE for grace is powerless to do any saving. It is God who does the saving of those who have faith in Him. </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, Outwest

You correctly state; "If God were being JUST, no man could be saved for all have sinned." Furthermore, if God the Father had not chosen some unto salvation in Jesus Christ, God the Son died to atone for the sins of the elect, and God the Holy Spirit regenerated those chosen ones and given them saving faith to respond to the Gospel none would be saved.

However you are denying Scripture when you argue that we are not saved by Grace. Ephesians 2;8 clearly states that we are saved by grace unless you are relying on some carnal paraphrase rather than a translation.

I refer you to a number of translations:

Ephesians 2:8 [KJV] For by grace are ye saved through faith;

Ephesians 2:8 [ASV] for by grace have ye been saved through faith;

Ephesians 2:8 [Darby] For ye are saved by grace, through faith;

Ephesians 2:8 [Green's Literal] For by grace you are saved, through faith,

Ephesians 2:8 [KJV21] For by grace are ye saved through faith,

Ephesians 2:8 [NAS95] For by grace you have been saved through faith;

Ephesians 2:8 [NASB] For by grace you have been saved through faith;

Ephesians 2:8 [NIV] For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

Ephesians 2:8 [NKJV] For by grace you have been saved through faith,

Enough said.

 

Second follow up question by OldRegular:
Scripture or Wes, Outwest?

 

Scripture! Why would God who created ALL give his only begotten son to pay the penalty for the sins of a mere few, when His word tells us that ALL have sinned, and that Jesus died for the sin of the world?

Stop being so ignorant of the truth! You are an embarrassment to Christianity!

 

This is true ONLY for the Apostles. Refer to John 17:1-26. AT THE TIME OF PAUL'S WRITING of ROMANS, who had God given to the Son except those who were molded by God the Son into his own pattern? Those who were "taught by God", "called out" from among the people, and "made different" by Jesus. Who specifically did Jesus JUSTIFY? The apostles, no one else! Who did Jesus specifically call his brothers? The Apostles he called his "brothers"! He did not do that for any other people!

It was only through the teaching of the Apostles that any of us learn about God! So it was the apostles that Paul is talking about in Romans 8:28-30. Verses 31-39 express why it is worth the effort that the Apostles are putting forth to teach All nations, making disciples. Disciples are those who adhere to a specific teaching. Calvinists are disciples of Calvinism, Arminians are Disciples of Arminianism. Christians are disciples of Christ! I am Christian! </font>[/QUOTE]It is sheer nonsense to state that Romans 8:28-30 is for the Apostles only. You are desperately grasping at straws Wes, Outwest!

As for Jesus Christ calling only the Apostles brother I refer you to the following Scripture:

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

If your statement that Jesus Christ specifically justified only the Apostles then we are all still in our sins! I don't know about you but Jesus Christ specifically justified me. You might try reading Romans 3:23-26.

By the way, your parapharase of Romans 8:28-30, regardless of whose carnal mind generated it, doesn't cut it.
</font>[/QUOTE]Somehow, I knew that you would not like the scriptures that tell the truth about your bogus theology. That was not a paraphrase, it is a translation! Every important expositor of the scriptures says it the same way that the translators here have said it!

The fact that you do not like Paul telling the Romans, about the apostles does not surprize me either, because it destroys your mythology.

I do not need to grasp at straws, my house is firmly built upon the Rock, who is Jesus, the Son of God come in the flesh to redeem mankind.

Jesus Actually told the Apostles they were His brothers. Of these he is saying that by doing the work of God they are his brothers, sisters, and mother. So, somehow in it's context, it does not say what you want it to say. We do not know who "these are", but we do know who the apostles are whom Jesus called His brothers. Besides, we were discussing Romans 8 were we not? And can you identify who it is that was taught by God? Can you tell us who it is that was actually given by the father to the son? Can you tell us who it is that builded Jesus Church? They were Called, justified, etc., etc., etc.

No, I do not deny scripture by denying that it is grace that does the saving! If you would take the challenge and define grace, tell us all you know about it and what power it may or may not have. Give us the true essence of grace what specifically is it! Then we have something to discuss, and we can proceed from there.

 

Wes says: "God predestined ALL men to Salvation." OldRegular asks for the third time:
Does this statement come from inerrant Scripture or from errant Wes, Outwest?

Since Wes can't answer I will. Predestinate is the translation of the Greek word which means:

1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand.

So apparently Wes, Outwest either believes in universal salvation, or that God can't really make up His mind, or perhaps that God is not able to keep His promises. Which is it Wes, Outwest?

 

God Foreordained ALL to come to him by providing the Atonement for Sin whereby man can have everlasting life by believing in God the son. God the Son told us that in John Chapter 3 verse 16.

By providing the means for "ol' whosoever" to have everlasting life, God foreordained that ALL mankind should come to him through FAITH! Faith is God's ordained means for man's salvation! Every single human is able to have just enough faith in God, even on the Name of Jesus, to be saved by A GRACIOUS God.

When did God determine that? Before he Created the heavens and the earth, God established that His only Begotten Son would be the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. That Determination took place before the first man was created! So, God predetermined, that is, Decided beforehand that His son, would die to pay the penalty for sin that had not yet occured.

The Atonement for sin Is UNIVERSAL! Salvation could have been if ALL men had believed, but alas, there are a large number of mankind that do not believe, because it is too simple! And you want to make it more difficult. We ain't buyin it your way!

So now OldRegular, I have answered your incessant nonsense by simply pointing out to you that God predetermined before the first man was created, that All mankind would sin, and be in need of a savior, and that savior is Jesus, who is God the son come in the flesh, to redeem man to God through FAITH. And All of it was predestined before the first man was created.

If that is Universalism in your eyes, then so be it! However, Man is the object of Salvation, and bless his little pea pickin' heart, man stubbornly refuses to do things the easy way! So it is only those who actually do believe in God, that get saved! Simple plan that works!

 

This is true ONLY for the Apostles. Refer to John 17:1-26. AT THE TIME OF PAUL'S WRITING of ROMANS, who had God given to the Son except those who were molded by God the Son into his own pattern? Those who were "taught by God", "called out" from among the people, and "made different" by Jesus. Who specifically did Jesus JUSTIFY? The apostles, no one else! Who did Jesus specifically call his brothers? The Apostles he called his "brothers"! He did not do that for any other people!

It was only through the teaching of the Apostles that any of us learn about God! So it was the apostles that Paul is talking about in Romans 8:28-30. Verses 31-39 express why it is worth the effort that the Apostles are putting forth to teach All nations, making disciples. Disciples are those who adhere to a specific teaching. Calvinists are disciples of Calvinism, Arminians are Disciples of Arminianism. Christians are disciples of Christ! I am Christian! </font>[/QUOTE]

You quote Romans 8:28-30 as "He decided beforehand who were the ones destined to be moulded to the pattern of his Son, so that he should be the eldest of many brothers; it was those so destined that he called; those that he called, he justified, and those that he has justified he has brought into glory." yet give no source. Whatever it is it is not a translation. Are you ashamed to identify the source? Also who are some of the "Every important expositor of the scriptures says it the same way that the translators here have said it!?"

You limiting Romans 8:28-30 is sheer nonsense. You have shown that you will either twist or ignore any Scripture that does not fit your carnal dictrine.

I agree, you don't need to grasp at straws but you do!

Jesus Actually told the Apostles they were His brothers. Of these he is saying that by doing the work of God they are his brothers, sisters, and mother. So, somehow in it's context, it does not say what you want it to say. We do not know who "these are", but we do know who the apostles are whom Jesus called His brothers.</font>[/QUOTE]Poor Wes, Outwest, you cannot deny the words of Jesus Christ Anyone who does the will of God, that person is my brother and sister and mother. try as you might.

Hebrews 8:8-11
8. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

According to this passage God all "true believers" are taught by God. This is consistent with the words of Jesus Christ in the Gospel of John:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Or you going to limit this Scripture to the Apostles also?

Ephesians 1:3-6
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Those chosen before the foundation of the world were given to Jesus Christ and as He states in the following passage they will all come to Him.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Scripture tells us who is building the Church if you will believe it.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

You are denying Scripture when you say that we are not saved by Grace.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith. I presented this passage from a dozen or so translations and all said the same thing. You may be able to dredge up some carnal paraphrase that states differently. If that is what you want to put your trust in so be it.

 

Wes, Outwest

You stated "God predestined ALL men to Salvation."

Why not admit you are wrong and get it over with instead of shuffling meaningless words around? Semantics cannot justify your statement no matter how hard you try. If God predestined all men to be saved all would be saved.

Quit chasing your tail, let the dogs do that!

 

There are enough who will not believe, without you culling the numbers by defining that God had no intention to provide for ALL mankind, not only the atonement for their sin, but to draw all men to His Son.

That may be passible theology in the Carolina's, but we ain't buyin it in the West! What God did, he did for ALL mankind! So jest rub a little more o' that snake oil on and say, "goodnight gracie!"

 

Wes, Outwest

You stated "God predestined ALL men to Salvation."

Why not admit you are wrong and get it over with instead of shuffling meaningless words around? Semantics cannot justify your statement no matter how hard you try. If God predestined all men to be saved all would be saved.

Quit chasing your tail, let the dogs do that!

 

I am not a universalist in the classical definition of the term. There are however some things that defy your interpretation of scripture.

1. God is a universalist! It is his UNIVERSAL AND UNILATERAL desire that NONE should be lost. Meaning NOT ONE OUT OF ALL THAT EXISTED, EXISTS, WILL EXIST! Pretty universal if you ask me!

2. God made man IN HIS IMAGE! Meaning that in order for man to be IN HIS IMAGE! man must have the autonomy of self will, as he (God) has it! That means that ALL mankind has self will! Pretty universal wouldn't you say?

3. God performed ALL the work of Creation! A universal fete, no? God also performed ALL the work of Redemption of Man! There is NO WORK that man can do except in the spirit man must repent from sin, and POSSESS Faith in God. Pretty universal indeed! The spirit is the life of the flesh, and the flesh obeys the spirit, not the other way around. Yes the flesh being hormone active, strongly influences the spirit toward satisfaction of "needs", however it it the spirit that must be in control! No, I am not speaking of the HOLY SPIRIT, but the human spirit. It is the human spirit that redemption is all about! A universal principle!

4. God created all there is, Universalist that he is nothing could exist without Him.

5. There is only one thing God demands of man...FAITH in Him! All who lack faith in God are cast into the lake of fire. A universal rule of God! ALL who possess faith in God are spared from judgment and receive everlasting life with the Christ! Also a universal rule of God!

Now if that makes me a universalist as you are so eager to label me, then so be it! If that does not qualify me to be a universalist, then you are a petty demagog for labeling me such!

 

You say what grace is not, but you don't say what grace is! No, don't give me "unmerited favor". Tell me exactly what it is, what it's source is, where it resides, what it does, how it works. Tell me something about grace that I do not know! </font>[/QUOTE]If you won't accept the definition of the word then I am at a loss as to what to tell you.

I have attempted on several occasions now to illustrate it to you. But all I can surmise is that you are refusing to see it because the very definition and implication of the word undermines your argument.

Grace is an attitude, an inclination that directs action. Perhaps that will clarify it some for you. However it is critical to note that grace is nothing without action.

 

Faith cometh by HEARING, and HEARING by the word of God.</font>[/QUOTE] No Wes, stop dodging. What is the source of faith? People hear the Word all the time and never have saving faith. Where does it come from? God? Man?

The catalyst for salvation it the work that God has completed! It is the finished work of God that draws men to believe in Him and in Jesus his son.</font>[/QUOTE] Notably even in your answer you couldn't bring yourself to acknowledge that it does not emanate from man himself.

I see so if you are discerning enough you will be able to put the pieces together and make the good choice of having faith, right?

Who caused you to be a puzzle fan? Where did that inclination come from? Did you simply decide to enjoy such work or was it innate?

Where did we get the ability to comprehend them?

Nope. He says that He foreknew and predestined the completion of the puzzle.... all the way down to completion = glorification.

So you are finally admitting that you believe salvation is the result of man's work/action... or whatever you would call the ability to "complete [the process] for himself".

I say it is not something that is forced upon us men. We always rebel when "forced" to do that which is contrary to our own ways.</font>[/QUOTE] I didn't say it was something that is forced on us either. I said that it is the result of a changed nature. While we rebel against force, we act in accord with our spiritual nature.

This is precisely why it is not a matter of force. One doesn't have to be forced to breath or see. When Jesus healed the blind or raised the dead, was it a violation of their will? Did He "force" them to live or see? NO! He changed their nature and they did what then came naturally to them.

Amen. That is why no man will ever accept Christ as Savior without a new spiritual nature... without being born again of the Spirit.

No disagreements here... just the addition that our natural, dead spiritual nature would never "choose to accept" nor would our regenerate, born again nature ever choose to "reject".

That's OK! Just remember, that God is looking for man to choose Him, for then it is truly a willing spirit that chooses God.</font>[/QUOTE] I never said it wasn't. Read again what I said. There is alot in what you said but it still has to be reconciled with the teachings of predestination and the nature of man in the Bible.

I do believe that we choose... and choose freely. But an unregenerate person can no more of his own natural state "choose" salvation than a blind man can simply "choose" to see.

On one hand that is true. On another, God ordained the life of my children which necessitated my marriage.

I didn't choose the parents I was born to, the things I inherited with regard to physical attraction, my personality or the personalities that I am attracted to.... I didn't ultimately choose willfully the circumstances under which I met my wife or fell in love with her.

So much of why I am married to my wife was predetermined that even this weak analogy points back to God's choosing "first" rather than me.

Did I have a real choice? Of course. But it was in accordance with a nature and personality that was not of my choosing. Could I have chosen differently and fulfilled God's ultimate purpose? No.

 

If your interpretation were correct then none would be lost. If you are going to cling to this interpretation then you should get off the fence and become a universalist.

Two things: First, NO, man does not have to have the same autonomy of absolute free will as God has. Even in His pre-fallen state, man was not granted all of the attributes or authority of God.

Second, sin placed man in bondage to a fallen, spiritually dead nature. Man has freedom of his will in the respect that he can choose anything he "wills" to include salvation. However, the fallen spiritual nature will not choose salvation because the choice is simply not part of that nature.

Those are "good" choices are they not? What ultimately caused those good choices? Did they come from some good within the nature of a fallen spirit or did they come from a new born spirit granted by God?

Absolutely, so in what case can the spiritually dead choose to come alive themselves? Was Lazarus raised by his own will or was He given life by Christ? Was he "forced" to live... or was it simply in his resurrected nature to live- rejoicing and thanking God for the "gift" that he neither asked for, chose, nor "received" in the sense that he did anything at all to secure it.

Nope. It is about the glory of God... and that indeed is a universal principle.

Piper is absolutely correct when he contends that creation is not for the purpose of the salvation of mankind. Its purpose is ever the glory of God.

 

You run around spouting that for which you have no definition?

Wow, that is real 'heady'! No wonder there are so many "winds of doctrine", there is no common language spoken among Christians.

Grace is not an attitude, attitudes are the manifestation of any or all of one's ATTRIBUTES! Often the best example of Grace is NO ACTION AT ALL!

 

Gees ScottJ don't you even read my posts? I have stated repeatedly that FAITH is a STRICTLY HUMAN RESPONSE to knowledge gained and held by the human! That is why FAITH cometh by hearing and Hearing by the Word of God!

 

That part doesn't take many pieces of the puzzle. You do not need to be a seminary scholar to have faith in God, and indeed many such scholars do not have faith in God!

 

Salvation, the result, is due exclusively to God's work! My personal salvation is through faith in God! God established from the first that human FAITH in Him is worthy of his notice! He saves all who have faith in him, and not one who does not have faith in Him. Even those who claim to be "of the elect" can have their names blotted from the book of life (Revelation 3)

 

In every case, the one being healed called out to Jesus to heal them. For those brought back to life, it was the faith of others who brought out the "God the Son" in Jesus and he restored them.

 

Name one.