?God has no faith!? ... prove it here.

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yes. Salvation is a demonstration of His favor. This "favor" is inseparable from the accompanying action.

You said elsewhere that grace was an "attribute". Please make up your mind.

An attribute is that which is true of the one possessing it! God owns his grace Lock, stock, and barrel! And by george there is not one tittle of it that he can give to another, because if he did, the grace would no longer be God's grace, he's given it away!</font>[/QUOTE] Grace is not an attribute and it is not a commodity that can be given away. Your tilting with windmills. You are arguing with thin air.

So, he gives gifts that show he has (possesses) GRACE!

Giving an unmerited gift is an act of grace.

Ephesians 2:8,9 express that truth when it says, "for by Grace (the condition that God is operating in)

Let's simplify that verse and see if you can agree with this: For by the unmerited favor of God we are saved by faith and that (That what? the whole process of salvation) not of yourselves it is the GIFT of God.

we are saved through faith (all that we can possibly have)

What is the source of that faith?

Our basic disagreement comes down to this very fundamental disagreement: Whose choice is the catalyst for salvation?

You say it is man's choice of his own natural free will.

I say that is both God's and man's choice but that man's choice is predicated on God changing man's nature such that faith is a manifestation of that change.

and not of ourselves (not by any merit or advantage that we perceive we may have)

If you can make the good decision to have faith then that is a meritorious act. You did it. Not God.

it (salvation) is the gift of God, not of works (deeds that we do) lest any man should boast.

If salvation is directly and primarily the result of a good decision as you persistently contend then it is very much something one could rightly boast of.

In what way and to whom can you boast regarding your faith?

Who can't you boast to?

Can you say that you caused that which you claim faith in?

No. You can say that you were smart enough to see the truth and make the right choice.

All you can claim is that you chose to believe what has been done in your behalf. Wow! Bragging rights! What glory there is believing what someone else has done for you?

If you made an investment decision that resulted in unimaginable wealth and anyone else could have made the very same decision then it hardly matters that you didn't run the company. You still have bragging rights for possessing the intelligence to make the right choice.

I have not contradicted myself, nor have I demeaned anything of scripture relating to God's grace, God's salvation, God's gifts to mankind.

Yes you have and you still haven't dealt with scriptures that directly and incontrovertibly declare that God predestines those who will believe.

You simply don't get it! You don't want to get it!

Of course I want to "get it". If you are biblically right and I am biblically wrong then by all means I will change my mind. But you are going to have to prove your points from scripture in a way that is consistent with the whole context of scripture. You are going to have to show me a much better argument than you have so far that your position does not result in making man, his choices, and his glory central to salvation.

You are so self satisfied with your man made doctrines that you cannot see the true spiritual things.

Why? Because I cite scriptures that contradict what you believe and expect you to reconcile them? Because I won't just roll over and accept your opinions and elevated view of human goodness as if you were speaking new scripture into existence?

 

[Scott J]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Absolutely. And it is either a) caused by God's unmerited favor toward an individual or b) by a man's merit for choosing correctly to have faith.

What merit is there in believing?</font>[/QUOTE] If I had believed that investing $100 in a little Seattle company in the early '80's would have made me a millionaire and had done it, would that not demonstrate merit for being so wise?

One person's believing is not evident to another!

That doesn't matter. All that matters is that you made a calculated, "good" decision. That in and of itself demonstrates that you in some way have done better than an unbeliever. If it is your "good" decision then it emanates from your goodness... since you contend that it was not the direct result of God's goodness in giving you faith.

You cannot walk up to a total stranger on the street and identify that person as a believer without first asking!

Merit isn't limited to what other people know.

Belief is not something that one displays.

A "good" decision displays one's merit to God or else under your economy God would not grant that person salvation.

God did all the work, but man must believe in order to be saved!

Yep. And when the Holy Spirit quickens a man's spirit, he will believe- not before.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Your analogy is flawed in that it materializes something that isn't material.

The principle holds true regardless of your inability to see it! </font>[/QUOTE] I see your point. It simply isn't a very good analogy. There too many incongruencies.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />However, it might be useful to a certain extent. The gift itself is not love. But the giving of the gift (among other things) is an expression of love. But love cannot be separated from the expression. Without willful, chosen action, there is no love.

Can you give your love to another?</font>[/QUOTE] Love, like grace, is not a commodity. That is about the only worth to the analogy you used.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I don't think I said that He gives us grace in this sense. You seem to be constructed another straw man.

NO strawman, but just the same, it is yours to prove! </font>[/QUOTE] No. It is not my responsibility to go back and re-post all of my posts and point out in each sentence how I have not argued what you answered.

If you think I said that God "gives" us grace as some sort of commodity that accomplishes salvation then it is up to you to find a statement by me that proves it.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yes. But He also grants a quickened spirit, a new born spiritual nature by which faith in Him is an inevitable manifestation.

Define a "quickened spirit". </font>[/QUOTE] Alive as opposed to dead. Seeing as opposed to blind. Partakers of the divine nature as opposed to being natural men. Regenerate as opposed to being unregenerate.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I do understand. I understand what you are arguing. I understand what I am arguing... and am comparing the two with as open a mind as I can.

It is still my belief that your position is not only wrong but also in contradiction to the teachings of scripture in the context of the whole.

But you have offered nothing in rebuttal!</font>[/QUOTE] And you accuse me of not wanting to see? I have done nothing but rebut the lines of reasoning that you use and give my own based on how I interpret various scriptures. I am not claiming infallibility and could certainly be wrong. However, it is simply not true that I have not pointed our where I think your view is flawed and offered my own.

How is it possible to know that what you believe is correct and what I believe is incorrect? You simply offer nothing that refutes what I believe.

In the post you responded to, there were at least 13 occasions where I refuted what you believe or affirmed what I believe.

One of those is that love, like grace, cannot be separated from the acts that characterize it. That is one reason the Bible never defines love- 1 Corinthians 13 describes it rather than defining it. What love does is inseparable from what it is. What grace does is inseparable from what it is.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Grace is not an attribute and it is not a commodity that can be given away. Your tilting with windmills. You are arguing with thin air.

You say what grace is not, but you don't say what grace is! No, don't give me "unmerited favor". Tell me exactly what it is, what it's source is, where it resides, what it does, how it works. Tell me something about grace that I do not know!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Giving an unmerited gift is an act of grace.

Yes, it is something given out of grace, but what is grace?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Let's simplify that verse and see if you can agree with this: For by the unmerited favor of God we are saved by faith and that (That what? the whole process of salvation) not of yourselves it is the GIFT of God.

You're getting close, but if you do not declare salvation, the completed thing, the gift of God then you are not in accordance with Ephesians 2:8,9. The way you have said it leaves an ambiguous "it" hanging on the end. Is "it" grace? is "it" faith? or is "it" Salvation?

 

[Wes Outwest]

What is the source of that faith?

Faith cometh by HEARING, and HEARING by the word of God.

Our basic disagreement comes down to this very fundamental disagreement: Whose choice is the catalyst for salvation?

The catalyst for salvation it the work that God has completed! It is the finished work of God that draws men to believe in Him and in Jesus his son.

You can be drawn to an event where something spectacular and if not seen first hand would be otherwise unbelievable. You can either believe or not believe. The work of God is like that, God's work is like a puzzle, that when you get enough of the pieces put together you begin to see the picture. Well if you are a puzzle fan, you know that once you are able to make out a little of what the picture is supposed to be, the work on the puzzle becomes all consuming until the picture is complete. God has all the puzzle parts and he reveals them in accordance with out ability to comprehend them. He leaves it up to us to finish the puzzle. His is not there for the placement of every piece of the puzzle. So the Catalyst is God's completed work, but the process is man's to complete for himself. It is through that process that human belief in God is established within the human, and it is that belief that God looks for when it is "savin' time"...Even belief on the name of Jesus.

You say it is man's choice of his own natural free will.

I say it is not something that is forced upon us men. We always rebel when "forced" to do that which is contrary to our own ways. That is why Jesus did not come to us the first time as a Conquering Hero, but instead came as an infant human being. Who can resist a baby? Who deliberately chooses to love a baby? It is in our nature to accept that which is of our nature. For everything else, we must be persuaded to accept it. The Word of God is the Great persuader. Faith cometh by hearing and Hearing by the word of God. We hear, and choose to accept or reject what we've heard.

I say that is both God's and man's choice but that man's choice is predicated on God changing man's nature such that faith is a manifestation of that change.

That's OK! Just remember, that God is looking for man to choose Him, for then it is truly a willing spirit that chooses God. You certainly would not have wanted your marriage to be "arranged for you", you would not have been very happy if your bride were not your choice! Why do you think an arranged marriage with God would be different?

 

[Wes Outwest]

If you can make the good decision to have faith then that is a meritorious act. You did it. Not God.

If you are choosing what someone else has done for you, that is merely acceptance and not some human work. Even so, it is your choice to accept or reject what has been done for you.

If salvation is directly and primarily the result of a good decision as you persistently contend then it is very much something one could rightly boast of.

Salvation is a completed work for those who ACCEPT it. It is not something that can be earned, so the decision to accept it is not a work. About boasting? To whom could you boast? To whom could you say "I was very wise, I accepted God's Free gift of Salvation!"

Every one that you could boast to got their salvation exactly the same way you did, so who ya goin' to boast to?

Who can't you boast to?

You can't boast to another with faith! They got their's the same way you did!

No. You can say that you were smart enough to see the truth and make the right choice.

Who would you say that to? Every one who cares already has what you'd be boasting about!

[ April 29, 2005, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Wes, Outwest ]

 

[Wes Outwest]

If you made an investment decision that resulted in unimaginable wealth and anyone else could have made the very same decision then it hardly matters that you didn't run the company. You still have bragging rights for possessing the intelligence to make the right choice.

If as you elude in your following post to a decision to buy Microsoft in the 80's, you should ask each of those who did so invest. It was at best a risk for all of them. They were investing in Bill Gates Dream. Investing in a dream is always risky. Their "Gamble" paid off. Is a gamble what you compare, salvation to?

Man's choice to believe in God is not a gamble, there is "heavens and earth" full of evidence and promises upon which one decides to believe in God. There is no risk, what's the alternative?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Yes you have and you still haven't dealt with scriptures that directly and incontrovertibly declare that God predestines those who will believe.

"Let's see, God predestines those who will believe". That in itself does not sound biblical to me, could you post the specific scripture for that?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Of course I want to "get it". If you are biblically right and I am biblically wrong then by all means I will change my mind. But you are going to have to prove your points from scripture in a way that is consistent with the whole context of scripture. You are going to have to show me a much better argument than you have so far that your position does not result in making man, his choices, and his glory central to salvation.

"You want"? I thought you were operating on the premise that "God wants". Do you mean to tell me that you have a will of your own, and that it wants? That refutes your predestination theory!

By the way, I am working from the Whole bible point of view in case you have not noticed. That is why I don't post many "specific" scriptures, if I did my posts would be nothing but scriptures.

Got to run for the day.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Of course I want to "get it". If you are biblically right and I am biblically wrong then by all means I will change my mind. But you are going to have to prove your points from scripture in a way that is consistent with the whole context of scripture. You are going to have to show me a much better argument than you have so far that your position does not result in making man, his choices, and his glory central to salvation.

"You want"? I thought you were operating on the premise that "God wants".</font>[/QUOTE] That does seem to be a problem for you... you think that people believe things that they don't and have never said.

I do not deny free will. I think that people possess free will both before and after salvation. My choices are real. My sins are not the responsibility of God.

Do you mean to tell me that you have a will of your own, and that it wants? That refutes your predestination theory!

No, it doesn't... but your response does demonstrate that you don't understand the other side of this debate nearly as well as you try to claim.

God predestined me to salvation, sanctification, and glorification according to His good will. To accomplish this salvation, the Holy Spirit endowed me with a regenerate nature that resulted in saving faith.

By the way, I am working from the Whole bible point of view in case you have not noticed. That is why I don't post many "specific" scriptures, if I did my posts would be nothing but scriptures.

Not until you deal with scriptures that directly contradict your interpretations of scripture you use for support.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Let's simplify that verse and see if you can agree with this: For by the unmerited favor of God we are saved by faith and that (That what? the whole process of salvation) not of yourselves it is the GIFT of God.

You're getting close, but if you do not declare salvation, the completed thing, the gift of God then you are not in accordance with Ephesians 2:8,9. The way you have said it leaves an ambiguous "it" hanging on the end. Is "it" grace? is "it" faith? or is "it" Salvation? </font>[/QUOTE]All three. "that" points back to "saved" which links "grace" and "faith". All three and the whole process are a gift of God.

 

[Wes Outwest]

How can a gift be a requirement?

You say Faith is a gift of God, yet all mankind has faith in something and most of us many things. Did God give faith To all mankind to enable some to have faith in money, some in cars, some in spouses, some in children, some in government, etc. If God gave each and all of them faith, why then are they not likewise saved. You see that have God's grace, you and if God is the source of Faith all have God's faith, so then All should also have God's salvation.

PS: Don't tell me God gives a Baskin-Robbins variety of "Faiths", like some believe He does with a variety of "Graces". I AIN't Buyin it! There is only one source of faith and that source is from within Man based on the knowledge that man has of what he has faith in.

 

[Wes Outwest]

God predestined me to salvation, sanctification, and glorification according to His good will. To accomplish this salvation, the Holy Spirit endowed me with a regenerate nature that resulted in saving faith.

God predestined ALL men to Salvation, but only saves those who have faith in him and in His son Jesus, even on the name of Jesus.

Do not cite for me old testament scripture as an example, or new testament quotes of old testament scripture. God established a NEW COVENANT! Not with a specific people, but with "Whosoever will". That covenant is sealed with the Blood of God's only begotten son Jesus, and it is an eternal covenant, open to all who will by their own volition submit themselves to God through their FAITH in God.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by TC:
Did God not exercise faith when he created the universe out of nothing? He said let there be ... and it was so. He expected His words to produce just what he asked for - that is excercising faith according to some.

That sounds like Word-Faith error to me!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:

God predestined ALL men to Salvation.

Scripture or Wes, Outwest?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />According to Scripture, Ephesians 2:8&9, FAITH cannot be a work because Salvation is not of Works lest any man should boast, but indeed requires faith! For without faith there is no salvation.

Amen. Without a new nature, there is no faith. It is all of grace.</font>[/QUOTE]So long as you are not saying that grace is what saves, we can agree. However,I detect that you are saying that the individual is saved BY grace, and I would like you to prove that by explaining how grace saves. Exactly what is this "power" that grace has that actually saves the individual. When a man falls overboard and is in the water, what is the actual mechanism that saves the man from the water. Is it grace and grace alone?

Think it through before you answer, I weary of trite answers to this question! Exactly how does grace save? </font>[/QUOTE]Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith.

It can't get any simpler than that, we are saved totally by the Grace of God. It is by His Grace that God the Father chose some unto Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:3-6]. It is by His Grace that God the Son took upon Himself the form of a servant, humbled Himself and became obedient unto death to pay the penalty for the sins of the elect [Philippians 2:6-8]. It is by His Grace that God the Holy Spirit regenerates those whom God the Father has chosen and gives them the faith by which they respond to the Gospel [Ephesians 2:1-10].

Romans 8: 29, 30 says it well:

29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Wes Outwest]

It can't get any simpler than that, we are saved totally by the Grace of God. It is by His Grace that God the Father chose some unto Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:3-6]. It is by His Grace that God the Son took upon Himself the form of a servant, humbled Himself and became obedient unto death to pay the penalty for the sins of the elect [Philippians 2:6-8]. It is by His Grace that God the Holy Spirit regenerates those whom God the Father has chosen and gives them the faith by which they respond to the Gospel [Ephesians 2:1-10].

Nice try but you missed again!

It is ONLY while God is behaving in accordance with HIS GRACE, that man's salvation through man's faith is possible! If God were being JUST, no man could be saved for all have sinned. But God is being Gracious, looking on mankind with favor, looking for those who have FAITH in Him. It is these that God saves out of his grace...NOT BY HIS GRACE for grace is powerless to do any saving. It is God who does the saving of those who have faith in Him.

 

[Wes Outwest]

[Rom 8:28-30] We are well aware that God works with those who love him, those who have been called in accordance with his purpose, and turns everything to their good. He decided beforehand who were the ones destined to be moulded to the pattern of his Son, so that he should be the eldest of many brothers; it was those so destined that he called; those that he called, he justified, and those that he has justified he has brought into glory.

This is true ONLY for the Apostles. Refer to John 17:1-26. AT THE TIME OF PAUL'S WRITING of ROMANS, who had God given to the Son except those who were molded by God the Son into his own pattern? Those who were "taught by God", "called out" from among the people, and "made different" by Jesus. Who specifically did Jesus JUSTIFY? The apostles, no one else! Who did Jesus specifically call his brothers? The Apostles he called his "brothers"! He did not do that for any other people!

It was only through the teaching of the Apostles that any of us learn about God! So it was the apostles that Paul is talking about in Romans 8:28-30. Verses 31-39 express why it is worth the effort that the Apostles are putting forth to teach All nations, making disciples. Disciples are those who adhere to a specific teaching. Calvinists are disciples of Calvinism, Arminians are Disciples of Arminianism. Christians are disciples of Christ! I am Christian!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[Rom 8:28-30] We are well aware that God works with those who love him, those who have been called in accordance with his purpose, and turns everything to their good. He decided beforehand who were the ones destined to be moulded to the pattern of his Son, so that he should be the eldest of many brothers; it was those so destined that he called; those that he called, he justified, and those that he has justified he has brought into glory.

This is true ONLY for the Apostles. Refer to John 17:1-26. AT THE TIME OF PAUL'S WRITING of ROMANS, who had God given to the Son except those who were molded by God the Son into his own pattern? Those who were "taught by God", "called out" from among the people, and "made different" by Jesus. Who specifically did Jesus JUSTIFY? The apostles, no one else! Who did Jesus specifically call his brothers? The Apostles he called his "brothers"! He did not do that for any other people!

It was only through the teaching of the Apostles that any of us learn about God! So it was the apostles that Paul is talking about in Romans 8:28-30. Verses 31-39 express why it is worth the effort that the Apostles are putting forth to teach All nations, making disciples. Disciples are those who adhere to a specific teaching. Calvinists are disciples of Calvinism, Arminians are Disciples of Arminianism. Christians are disciples of Christ! I am Christian! </font>[/QUOTE]It is sheer nonsense to state that Romans 8:28-30 is for the Apostles only. You are desperately grasping at straws Wes, Outwest!

As for Jesus Christ calling only the Apostles brother I refer you to the following Scripture:

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

If your statement that Jesus Christ specifically justified only the Apostles then we are all still in our sins! I don't know about you but Jesus Christ specifically justified me. You might try reading Romans 3:23-26.

By the way, your parapharase of Romans 8:28-30, regardless of whose carnal mind generated it, doesn't cut it.