?God has no faith!? ... prove it here.

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />No Wes, stop dodging. What is the source of faith? People hear the Word all the time and never have saving faith. Where does it come from? God? Man?

Gees ScottJ don't you even read my posts?</font>[/QUOTE] Yes I do.

I have stated repeatedly that FAITH is a STRICTLY HUMAN RESPONSE to knowledge gained and held by the human! That is why FAITH cometh by hearing and Hearing by the Word of God!

But then you squirm when the direct implication of this response is stated and have not (that I know of) responded to the obvious "next question."

If faith is a "STRICTLY HUMAN RESPONSE" then it is necessarily born of man in still in his natural, sinful spiritual condition. It requires a "good choice" to be made... thus Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient without a "good choice" on the part of a sinful, self-willed person.

So the next question is: If it is a "STRICTLY HUMAN RESPONSE" and some choose while others do not- then how is it not an act of God rewarding merit? One person obviously made a "good" choice while the other made a "bad" choice. One merits eternal life for his discernment while the other is condemned for his lack of discernment.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If you won't accept the definition of the word then I am at a loss as to what to tell you.

You run around spouting that for which you have no definition? </font>[/QUOTE] I have given you a definition and described it in detail including illustrations.

Wow, that is real 'heady'! No wonder there are so many "winds of doctrine", there is no common language spoken among Christians.

Give your definition. If it is adequate then I will operate under it.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Grace is an attitude, an inclination that directs action. Perhaps that will clarify it some for you. However it is critical to note that grace is nothing without action.

Grace is not an attitude, attitudes are the manifestation of any or all of one's ATTRIBUTES!</font>[/QUOTE]

No they aren't. An attitude is one's position and orientation with regard to someone or something else.

An attitude is the culmination of one's thoughts toward another... that serve as the basis for action. Attitude is linked to action. A person is said to have a "bad attitude" when? When it manifests itself in action or a choice.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Often the best example of Grace is NO ACTION AT ALL!

Name one. </font>[/QUOTE]No Grace! You violated the rules, die! Smash!

or

Grace! You violated the rules, I observed that you did, no further action, you violation is covered by My son's atonement for sin.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So you are finally admitting that you believe salvation is the result of man's work/action... or whatever you would call the ability to "complete [the process] for himself".

Salvation, the result, is due exclusively to God's work!</font>[/QUOTE] That is contrary to your previous posts in which you have said that man makes a "good choice" to have faith. Earlier in this thread you emphasized that it is "STRICTLY HUMAN RESPONSE".

If it is "STRICTLY HUMAN RESPONSE" then it is not "due exclusively to God's work!"

My personal salvation is through faith in God!

Mine too.

God established from the first that human FAITH in Him is worthy of his notice! He saves all who have faith in him, and not one who does not have faith in Him.

True. And this all goes back to the question or perhaps now the inconsistency in your argument concerning where faith comes from.

Even those who claim to be "of the elect" can have their names blotted from the book of life (Revelation 3)

Read it again. The scripture does not say that if you do or don't do such and such your name will be blotted out. It says specifically:

5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

To intepret this, cross reference to Romans 8 and Philippians 1:6 among many others. Those who overcome are those in whom God will finish the work He began.

The name "will not" be blotted out... this is an affirmation of our security, not a negation of it.

 

[Scott J]

Double post

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Often the best example of Grace is NO ACTION AT ALL!

Name one. </font>[/QUOTE]No Grace! You violated the rules, die! Smash!

or

Grace! You violated the rules, I observed that you did, no further action, you violation is covered by My son's atonement for sin. </font>[/QUOTE]Nope. The second one is an action in as much as it has anything to do with grace... more specifically a decision which is an action. But the more accurate term for the second one would be "mercy".

Grace- giving someone something that they don't deserve.

Mercy- not giving someone punishment that they do deserve.

BTW, even your reference to what Christ did proves that grace is characterized by action as well as your reference to "I observed".

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />This is precisely why it is not a matter of force. One doesn't have to be forced to breath or see. When Jesus healed the blind or raised the dead, was it a violation of their will? Did He "force" them to live or see? NO! He changed their nature and they did what then came naturally to them.

In every case, the one being healed called out to Jesus to heal them. For those brought back to life, it was the faith of others who brought out the "God the Son" in Jesus and he restored them. </font>[/QUOTE]Really? Whose faith specifically resurrected Lazarus?

You didn't answer the questions BTW nor the point. It was in their nature to want healing. That helps rather than hurts my argument.

 

[Wes Outwest]

If faith is a "STRICTLY HUMAN RESPONSE" then it is necessarily born of man in still in his natural, sinful spiritual condition. It requires a "good choice" to be made... thus Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient without a "good choice" on the part of a sinful, self-willed person.

The Christ's Sacrifice is sufficient whether or not a single human being makes a choice at all! The Christ's Sacrifice did exactly what it was supposed to do. It atoned for the sin of the world. All sin is atoned! Mission Successfully accomplished.

So the next question is: If it is a "STRICTLY HUMAN RESPONSE" and some choose while others do not- then how is it not an act of God rewarding merit? One person obviously made a "good" choice while the other made a "bad" choice. One merits eternal life for his discernment while the other is condemned for his lack of discernment.

Don't think so! God looks for FAITH in Him within the Humans that He saves. If it is there, God saves those with it. If it is not there, God casts those without faith into the lake of fire!

Every human has the same information with which to make a choice...believe or not believe! Those who believe are given as a free gift from God, eternal life. Those who don't believe are given a one way ticket on the Lake of Fire express!

So what is the difference? All mankind has the same ability to have faith. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Faith in God is not forced upon any human being, neither is the Word of God forced on us. God wants an "All Volunteer Army", so it is up to the enlistee to volunteer. That is, "Choose you this day whom you will serve...".


Next question?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Don't think so! God looks for FAITH in Him within the Humans that He saves. If it is there, God saves those with it. If it is not there, God casts those without faith into the lake of fire!

This simply affirms my charge. You have God recognizing merit within a "good" person while punishing the lack of merit in a bad person. You have made God a respecter of persons.

Every human has the same information with which to make a choice...believe or not believe!

No they don't. Countless people have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel even once.

Those who believe are given as a free gift from God, eternal life. Those who don't believe are given a one way ticket on the Lake of Fire express!

Right. We agree on this as I have indicated before. It is not a matter of whether faith or belief is necessary- it is. The difference is how one comes to possess such faith.

You seem to be arguing that it comes STRICTLY from the choice of a person still operating completely under their sin nature. I am arguing that the Spirit's act of regeneration gives a person a new nature that is no longer contrary to saving faith.

So what is the difference? All mankind has the same ability to have faith.

The difference is that the Holy Spirit opens the blinded eyes of the elect... He quickens their spirit.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Yes... and consider the implications of "the word of God". Is that simply a reference to the scriptures/gospel or does it involve God's will as well?

Faith in God is not forced upon any human being, neither is the Word of God forced on us.

And I have shown you time and time again that my position does not require any such "force".

God wants an "All Volunteer Army", so it is up to the enlistee to volunteer.

But He only effectually recruits the elect.

That is, "Choose you this day whom you will serve...".

Mis-application of this scripture.

Next question?

You still haven't given a consistent answer to the ones I have already asked. You just keep spinning.

 

[Wes Outwest]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

To intepret this, cross reference to Romans 8 and Philippians 1:6 among many others. Those who overcome are those in whom God will finish the work He began.

The name "will not" be blotted out... this is an affirmation of our security, not a negation of it.</font>[/QUOTE]If one is to correctly read this scripture one needs to know that "overcometh" is the result, not the process. He that completeth, he that finisheth, Shall then be clothed in white raiment; and his name shall remain in the book of life, and I will confess his name before my father, and before his angels.

One who has and retains faith in God and God the Son, and even on the name of Jesus, when the one dies the natural death, HAS OVERCOME! and shall be clothed in white raiment (purity) and shall pass from death into everlasting life!

That verse tells me that whosoever does not overcome and remain in faith in the Godhead, when he dies shall be judged, his name blotted from the book of life, and he will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

To intepret this, cross reference to Romans 8 and Philippians 1:6 among many others. Those who overcome are those in whom God will finish the work He began.

The name "will not" be blotted out... this is an affirmation of our security, not a negation of it.</font>[/QUOTE]If one is to correctly read this scripture one needs to know that "overcometh" is the result, not the process.</font>[/QUOTE] Never said it was anything different now did I? In fact I asked you to cross reference to Romans 8 that says "30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." All of this is past tense as well though Paul was writing to living believers who were somewhere in the process... not at the end.

One who has and retains faith in God and God the Son, and even on the name of Jesus, when the one dies the natural death, HAS OVERCOME! and shall be clothed in white raiment (purity) and shall pass from death into everlasting life!

That is not what the text says but rather an interpretation of the text. The text says "will not" that does not automatically dictate a situation in which He would.

That verse tells me that whosoever does not overcome and remain in faith in the Godhead, when he dies shall be judged, his name blotted from the book of life, and he will be cast into the lake of fire.

No. Actually it doesn't tell you that... you have projected that onto what was actually said to facilitate the bias you carried to the text.

It is a statement of what will not be done... not a statement of what will be done. And again, this cross references with texts that affirm that God will sanctify the elect.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Nope. The second one is an action in as much as it has anything to do with grace... more specifically a decision which is an action. But the more accurate term for the second one would be "mercy".

Grace- giving someone something that they don't deserve.

Mercy- not giving someone punishment that they do deserve.

BTW, even your reference to what Christ did proves that grace is characterized by action as well as your reference to "I observed".

From God's perspective Grace and Mercy are the same thing! It is only from the human perspective that they differ.

By your definition of Mercy, a person who is sick must be punished

By your definition of Grace, no one can be rewarded for good works. Rewards for good works, though not salvation, are provided for in the judgement seat of the Christ, where all who are deserving are rewarded with "crowns". But alas, that must be a myth because Scott J says otherwise!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Never said it was anything different now did I? In fact I asked you to cross reference to Romans 8 that says "30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." All of this is past tense as well though Paul was writing to living believers who were somewhere in the process... not at the end.

But John in Revelation 3 was writing what he was told to write to the Church at Sardis! Last time I checked, Sardis is in the modern day country of Turkey, Not Italy! The letters to the churches are both Praise and Warnings!

Because the "will not" is in the text, it is correct to understand that the "will" is understood!

I carried no bias to the text, I take bias from the text! You would be wise to do likewise!

As for Sanctification, what is it that sets one apart from another when one believes the other doesn't? It is Faith! Therefore our FAITH Sanctifies, sets us apart, and anyone who has faith is sanctified!

 

[Wes Outwest]

This simply affirms my charge. You have God recognizing merit within a "good" person while punishing the lack of merit in a bad person. You have made God a respecter of persons.

How have I made God an "anything"?

Do you even know the meaning of "respecter of persons"? It is a hierarchical distinction, regarding authority! There is no one to whom God owes respect, He alone is the pinnacle, there is none higher than He. There is none who can exercise greater authority! There is none who carries more weight in anything, than God! He is not a part of some ethereal org chart! He is the very top. Who can advise God? Who can offer him solace? Who does God pay tithes to?

There is none to whom God could go for blessing, confession, repentance, forgiveness, etc!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
I am not a universalist in the classical definition of the term. There are however some things that defy your interpretation of scripture.

1. God is a universalist! It is his UNIVERSAL AND UNILATERAL desire that NONE should be lost. Meaning NOT ONE OUT OF ALL THAT EXISTED, EXISTS, WILL EXIST! Pretty universal if you ask me!

2. God made man IN HIS IMAGE! Meaning that in order for man to be IN HIS IMAGE! man must have the autonomy of self will, as he (God) has it! That means that ALL mankind has self will! Pretty universal wouldn't you say?

3. God performed ALL the work of Creation! A universal fete, no? God also performed ALL the work of Redemption of Man! There is NO WORK that man can do except in the spirit man must repent from sin, and POSSESS Faith in God. Pretty universal indeed! The spirit is the life of the flesh, and the flesh obeys the spirit, not the other way around. Yes the flesh being hormone active, strongly influences the spirit toward satisfaction of "needs", however it it the spirit that must be in control! No, I am not speaking of the HOLY SPIRIT, but the human spirit. It is the human spirit that redemption is all about! A universal principle!

4. God created all there is, Universalist that he is nothing could exist without Him.

5. There is only one thing God demands of man...FAITH in Him! All who lack faith in God are cast into the lake of fire. A universal rule of God! ALL who possess faith in God are spared from judgment and receive everlasting life with the Christ! Also a universal rule of God!

Now if that makes me a universalist as you are so eager to label me, then so be it! If that does not qualify me to be a universalist, then you are a petty demagog for labeling me such!

Wes, Outwest

You stated "God predestined ALL men to Salvation."

Why not admit you are wrong and get it over with instead of shuffling meaningless words around? Semantics cannot justify your statement no matter how hard you try. If God predestined all men to be saved all would be saved.

Quit chasing your tail, let the dogs do that!

 

[Wes Outwest]

What do you offer that says otherwise? If God did not predestine ALL man to salvation then he certainly would not have made if possible for all men to have it! Men of all nations, colors, creeds, sizes and persuasions are included. None are excluded as your doctrine says.

God the Son says, "if I be lifted up I draw all to me." Jesus told us he gives us all the the father has given him to give to us.

Jesus, said, I lay down my life that they might have life and have it abundantly. John the Baptist speaking of Jesus said, "Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world".

It would be a foolish waste for the creator of all to deliberately design his Salvation for a mere few. He would instead make provision for the Maximum possible! But since He created man to have a freewill like his own, He knew there would be some who would not come at his beckoning. Evenso, being a Gracious God, he made provision for them too, by making Salvation in accordance with his grace, THROUGH FAITH!

And the father says that whoever has faith in His son is saved.

Seems You should expand your view of God just a bit!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
What do you offer that says otherwise? If God did not predestine ALL man to salvation then he certainly would not have made if possible for all men to have it! Men of all nations, colors, creeds, sizes and persuasions are included. None are excluded as your doctrine says.

God the Son says, "if I be lifted up I draw all to me." Jesus told us he gives us all the the father has given him to give to us.

Jesus, said, I lay down my life that they might have life and have it abundantly. John the Baptist speaking of Jesus said, "Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world".

It would be a foolish waste for the creator of all to deliberately design his Salvation for a mere few. He would instead make provision for the Maximum possible! But since He created man to have a freewill like his own, He knew there would be some who would not come at his beckoning. Evenso, being a Gracious God, he made provision for them too, by making Salvation in accordance with his grace, THROUGH FAITH!

And the father says that whoever has faith in His son is saved.

Seems You should expand your view of God just a bit!

Romans 8:28, 29
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I have made the following point before but it apparently needs to be repeated.

The Greek word translated predestinate means [Thayer's Greek Lexicon]
1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

Romans 8:29,30 states that those God predestinated He called, justified, and glorified. So when you state that God predestined all men to salvation then you are promoting universal salvation. The Unitarian/Universalists believe that, the Mormons teach that though they have degrees of Heaven.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Nothing new here OldRegular. I've replied to this before TOO!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Nothing new here OldRegular. I've replied to this before TOO!

No! You incorrectly stated that in Romans 8:29, 30 Paul was talking only about the Apostles.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />This simply affirms my charge. You have God recognizing merit within a "good" person while punishing the lack of merit in a bad person. You have made God a respecter of persons.

How have I made God an "anything"? </font>[/QUOTE] Of course you proceed from here with a dodge of a question that you know reveals a critical flaw in your belief system.

Since you are intent on parsing words as an evasion tactic, let me clarify: Under your belief, God recognizes the "merit" in a human being. Under your economy, God cannot accomplish this good for man since 'God does not have faith'. Therefore, God is a respecter of persons in your system since men can accomplish something that God cannot... and a something that is obviously very valuable to God.

And don't try to spin this away by talking about how God did it all... your economy requires that God DID NOT DO IT ALL. He needs your merit manifested in a good choice to have faith to make His work effective for salvation.

There is no one to whom God owes respect, He alone is the pinnacle, there is none higher than He. There is none who can exercise greater authority! There is none who carries more weight in anything, than God!

Oh but you say that there is. You say that man, not God, is sovereign in salvation. It is man's good choice (merit) that makes salvation work. Man in your economy DOES exercise the greatest ultimate authority.

Who can advise God?

Apparently you since you think that He needs a person's good decision in order to save them.

There is none to whom God could go for blessing, confession, repentance, forgiveness, etc!

But according to you God needs a person's permission before He can change their spiritual nature.