No! You incorrectly stated that in Romans 8:29, 30 Paul was talking only about the Apostles. </font>[/QUOTE]Its simply an argument of convenience OR. The context here and in Ephesians 1 weighs against him but to respect the text as it speaks would totally destroy the premise of his position.
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?God has no faith!? ... prove it here.
- Thread starter TC
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
No! You incorrectly stated that in Romans 8:29, 30 Paul was talking only about the Apostles. </font>[/QUOTE]Its simply an argument of convenience OR. The context here and in Ephesians 1 weighs against him but to respect the text as it speaks would totally destroy the premise of his position. </font>[/QUOTE]Scott,
I believe you have correctly identified Wes, Outwest's dilemma.
Wes Outwest
New Member
No! You incorrectly stated that in Romans 8:29, 30 Paul was talking only about the Apostles. </font>[/QUOTE]
So who is moulded to the pattern of God's son? Keyword: "Pattern". Jesus performed Miracles, The apostles performed miracles, Did the Romans perform miracles? Jesus preached, the Apostles preached, Did the Romans preach? Jesus walked among the common folks, the apostles walked among the common folks, the Romans were the common folk. So who then is moulded in the patter of His Son?
Since Jesus "specifically" called the Apostles his brothers, and "generally" call those doing the work of God his brother's, sister, mother, It seems as though Paul is talking about the Apostles.
It was those? Those who? Those what? Those who were moulded in "the Pattern", Not only that, they were called in accordance with his purpose which was to build his church. They were the first to recognize Jesus to be the Christ the Son of God, and it is on that principle of who and what Jesus is, that the church of Jesus Christ exists today.
I Stand by my belief that Paul is speaking of the Apostles here in Roman's 8:26-30. No others match the description!
From God's perspective Grace and Mercy are the same thing! It is only from the human perspective that they differ.</font>[/QUOTE] Says who, you?
That is a leap not suggested by anything I have said, posted, nor suggested. My definitions while paraphrases are fairly standard theological understandings... and not at all excluded to Calvinists.
No it isn't. That's ludicrous. If I gave someone who was short a dollar in line at Walmart that would in no way preclude them from earning a paycheck. Do you really think this stuff through before you throw it out there?
That is a lie and you owe me an apology. At no point have I ever denied that Christians would be rewarded at the JSOC.
Why is it that you feel compelled to make up straw men to knock down? Could it be that you can't answer the real issues so you have to redirect the conversation off onto some tangent?
Just answer the simple questions about the obvious contradictions in your position... just answer the one primary contradiction. If it takes a "good", independent human choice to have faith in order for grace to work resulting in salvation then how can that not be considered merit? One person says yes, another says no. That makes one better, smarter, more discerning,... than the other.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish contraversies and genealogies and arguements and quarrels about the law because they are unprofitable and useless."
Wes Outwest
New Member
You said,
</font>[/QUOTE]By your definition of Mercy, a person who is sick must be punished</font>[/QUOTE]You said
I said,
You said,
Learn the true essence of the terms you so freely toss around, it will improve your understanding.
I said
You said,
I Said
</font>[/QUOTE]By your definition of Mercy, a person who is sick must be punished</font>[/QUOTE]You said
By what you say for mercy, a sick person must be recieving punishment because if mercy were given the person would not be sick!
I said,
You said,
My gracious Scott J you certainly eluded to that in your "definitions of Grace and Mercy". Understand sir that in God, Grace and Mercy are the same, and if you took the time to discover the true essence of both Grace and Mercy, you would see for yourself how they are the same. No apology extended, you just need a simple understanding of truth.
You said,
Well Scott J, the following quote of yours sounds exactly like what you are accusing me of doing!
I have never equated ""good", independent human choice to have faith," with having anything to do with the working of grace! Grace does not work! Grace is a condition! Faith does not work, Faith is a condition. Salvation is a work of God, and he performs that work while he is in HIS condition of Grace upon man who is in his condition of FAITH!
Learn the true essence of the terms you so freely toss around, it will improve your understanding.
You said,
My gracious Scott J you certainly eluded to that in your "definitions of Grace and Mercy".</font>[/QUOTE] That isn't even what I asked for an apology on. We can disagree without lying about one another's position.
I asked for an apology for your absolutely false charges concerning my beliefs on rewards at the JSOC... not for disagreeing with your errant opinion on mercy and grace.
Whether I am right or wrong about grace and mercy, you owe an apology for putting words in my mouth concerning the JSOC.
You simply need to read what words say before lecturing others about "understanding the truth."
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
No! You incorrectly stated that in Romans 8:29, 30 Paul was talking only about the Apostles. </font>[/QUOTE]
So who is moulded to the pattern of God's son? Keyword: "Pattern". Jesus performed Miracles, The apostles performed miracles, Did the Romans perform miracles? Jesus preached, the Apostles preached, Did the Romans preach? Jesus walked among the common folks, the apostles walked among the common folks, the Romans were the common folk. So who then is moulded in the patter of His Son?
Since Jesus "specifically" called the Apostles his brothers, and "generally" call those doing the work of God his brother's, sister, mother, It seems as though Paul is talking about the Apostles.
It was those? Those who? Those what? Those who were moulded in "the Pattern", Not only that, they were called in accordance with his purpose which was to build his church. They were the first to recognize Jesus to be the Christ the Son of God, and it is on that principle of who and what Jesus is, that the church of Jesus Christ exists today.
I Stand by my belief that Paul is speaking of the Apostles here in Roman's 8:26-30. No others match the description! </font>[/QUOTE]Wes,Outwest
Your biggest problem is that asinine paraphrase you are using.
Your paraphrase of Romans 8:28-30:
28. We are well aware that God works with those who love him, those who have been called in accordance with his purpose, and turns everything to their good.
29. He decided beforehand who were the ones destined to be moulded to the pattern of his Son,
30. it was those so destined that he called; those that he called, he justified, and those that he has justified he has brought into glory.
Translations of Romans 8:28-30
KJV
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
NKJV
28. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
NASB
28. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;
30. and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
NIV [Dynamic Equivalence]
28. And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
29. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Young's Literal
28. And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose;
29. because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
30. and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.
Green's Literal
28. But we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to purpose;
29. because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
30. But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; but whom He justified, these He also glorified.
We really only need to look at one verse to dispute your assertion that this passage is for the Apostles only. Verse 29 states that Jesus Christ is to be the Firstborn among many brothers. Now can 12 be considered many. Obviously not, therefore, this passage is not limited to the Apostles but to all the elect. If this passage is limited to the Apostles then the church consists of only 12 people. Where does thet leave you and I. I have also previously noted that Jesus Christ called brother all those who do the will of His Father. [Matthew 12:50; Mark3:35]
As for your assertion that there were no Roman preachers, Paul was writing to the church at Rome so I assume they had a preacher. Paul in his salutation to the church at Rome writes in Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Notice the use of the word called in Romans 1:7 and 8:28, 30.
I don't know how your paraphrase words Ephesians 1:3-6 but it is worth reading in a translation [KJV]:
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Well Scott J, the following quote of yours sounds exactly like what you are accusing me of doing!</font>[/QUOTE] NO. I am simply asking you to give a legitimate defense of the direct implications of what you contend.
What is the ultimate source of faith? Why do two people hear the same gospel and one accept while the other rejects? You say it comes by hearing but even the text you cite in Romans 10 declares that they don't all believe.
Why Wes? Why will some believe and others don't? And why won't you give a simple direct answer to this question?
I have never equated ""good", independent human choice to have faith,"</font>[/QUOTE] And once again you are using a deceptive evasion tactic... I never said that you equated the two. You said specifically that people choose to believe and that faith results from that belief (though elsewhere you seemed to imply that belief and faith were basically the same).
So since you are into parsing words, let me restate:
If man must make the good choice to believe then how is that not merit?
Grace does not function in the process of salvation?
One you say is born of hearing and believing... this involves an intelligent choice... this means that making the correct choice is ultimately the result of someone's merit. I say it is of God's since He gives us a new spirit consistent with saving faith. You say that unregenerate men are capable of making that choice in their natural state.
IOW's, a sinful man to his credit makes a good choice to believe results in saving faith.
Is that a misrepresentation of your position?
If so, specifically how?
HOW DOES ONE COME TO THAT CONDITION OF FAITH? In the past you have said that everyone has an equal capacity to hear and believe and that the correct belief results in faith. So is that or is that not a personal, independent decision?
If it is a personal decision then how can you deny that it is a good one that warrants merit?
I know the meaning of the terms... but you insist on bending and twisting them to conform to your beliefs.
However, even doing this, you fall short. You can't answer a simple direct question... or else are refusing to because you know the only answer you can give defeats your belief.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Practice what you preach! If you were not doing that to me I wouldn't be doing that to you!
You twist what I say to mean what you want it to!
If you can't take it, don't dish it out!
Wes Outwest
New Member
OldRegular, I could state the same position from any one of the translations you posted. There is nothing wrong with the translation that I am using. The message is the same! Your only heartburn is that there is someone posting here that thinks things through while you cannot, or do not!
As for the church, It is those who were TAUGHT BY GOD, that are its foundation or founding fathers. It is the Apostles who are the builders of the church because they were in the PATTERN of Jesus. The nebulous "elect" you speak of does not exist because you cannot identify a single one of them outside of the Apostles! We know the Apostles, the elect we do not know! We know the Apostles were in the Pattern of the Son of God, we have no idea about "the elect", especially in this age of so many imposters!
Jesus referred to some unidentified number of persons as "these are my brother's, sister's, and mother". We have no possible way of knowing HOW MANY were doing the will of the Father that were in Jesus' presence when he said that. There may have been less than twelve, then that would make twelve MANY!
I am one of 6 children of the same parents. 12, to me, constitutes MANY by comparison! IF the norm is 0 (zero), 2 is MANY. If the norm is... well you get the picture! Many is a relative term when specific values are not given, and there are no specifics given in the text.
As for the church, It is those who were TAUGHT BY GOD, that are its foundation or founding fathers. It is the Apostles who are the builders of the church because they were in the PATTERN of Jesus. The nebulous "elect" you speak of does not exist because you cannot identify a single one of them outside of the Apostles! We know the Apostles, the elect we do not know! We know the Apostles were in the Pattern of the Son of God, we have no idea about "the elect", especially in this age of so many imposters!
Jesus referred to some unidentified number of persons as "these are my brother's, sister's, and mother". We have no possible way of knowing HOW MANY were doing the will of the Father that were in Jesus' presence when he said that. There may have been less than twelve, then that would make twelve MANY!
Practice what you preach! If you were not doing that to me I wouldn't be doing that to you!</font>[/QUOTE] Tell me where I made up a belief for you that you neither said nor suggested and I will gladly and immediately apologize. This is rough and tumble stuff and I accept that. However we should not assume the right to lie about one thing because we don't like what the other guy said about a different thing.
Not as far as I know. I primarily try to get you to clarify what you are saying or acknowledge the direct implications of what you are saying. As far as I know, this is fair in debate.
You put words in my mouth concerning a specific topic that I have not commented on here nor discussed with you elsewhere. You just made it up knowing that your statement was not supported in fact.
I can take it or else I wouldn't hang around.
The problem is yours. You wrote something that was false without any legitimate basis for doing so. I have specifically pointed it out and you have yet to show where you were right to make the charge you did.
Wes Outwest
New Member
How is it that you can make assumptions about some things while not making assumptions for others.
Paul in Romans 8:28-30, was describing those who were "called of God" to a specific purpose, That of building the Church of Jesus Christ! They were Conformed to the pattern of God's son, He taught them for 3 years to be like Him!
You, by assumption, insert "the elect" into Paul's writing, assuming that to be a much larger "many brothers" for the Christ. The text does not say that...YOU DO! SEE the FOLLOWING! It is your assumption that Paul is talking about some nebulous "elect" when he is not!
Same argument holds using this translation!
Wes Outwest
New Member
</font>[/QUOTE]The Ultimate source of faith according to the bible is that FAITH cometh by hearing and Hearing by the word of God!
Why do some believe and not others? Why do some sinners sin by murdering another, while others tell little white lies? Same question!
And, it gets the same answer!
The answer is that we humans are the "product of our environment" We are all conformed to the invironment that formed our thought processes. Therefore each of us has a slightly different truth filter that we use when "hearing the word".
We also react slightly different to what we have stored in our brain. One may get really hopped up over an issue while another sees that as "no big deal".
Our faith has its basis in the knowledge that we possess that our spirit acts upon. Therefore our spiritual 'CONDITION' is the result of what we choose to believe and make part of ourselves.
For example you choose to believe one thing about a scripture, while I choose to believe something different about that same scripture. There is only one who can judge which is right and that is the self! You cannot believe for me, nor I for you! All we have is words on paper or on screen, and our own built in truth filters.
Scott J, There is no 'simple direct answer' for those who refuse to know the truth! And by your persistant persuit of this issue it is apparent that you refuse to know the truth!
Wes Outwest
New Member
I wrote something that was sarcastic,
you did not recognize the sarcasm and went ballistic!
Now cool your jets, and you'll get a more harmonious outcome!
Wes,
Your theology leaves little room for the Supernatural.
You say, "Our Faith has its basis in the knowledge that we possess that our spirit acts upon. Therefore our spiritual 'condition' is the result of what we choose to believe and make part of ourselves."
Not much objective Christianity there. It's all subjective and it's all man-centered.
Your theology leaves little room for the Supernatural.
You say, "Our Faith has its basis in the knowledge that we possess that our spirit acts upon. Therefore our spiritual 'condition' is the result of what we choose to believe and make part of ourselves."
Not much objective Christianity there. It's all subjective and it's all man-centered.
Wes Outwest
New Member
You twisted what I said to suit your mode of attack! I am merely correcting YOUR error! NO EVASION on my part!
ARE you of the opinion that belief and faith are not the same thing? I challenge you to separate them and see what you have left! You cannot have faith without belief! AND, you soon lose belief if you do not have faith! Neither can exist without the other! Don't you understand that?
What is YOUR definition of "merit"? I never use the word in relationship to choosing between spiritual matters!
Wes Outwest
New Member
Sorry you perceive it that way, words on paper are very limiting by way of explanation! And I hope that you can see that if one posts all their thoughts on the matter, this BBS would soon become a book exchange!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Wes, you are not using a translation and you have never identified your source. I wonder why. Also, if you don't stop patting yourself on the back because of your superior intelligence you are going to wind up like the "rabbit and the tar baby".
All I can say is that despite your vaunted intelligence you have a poor grasp of semantics! So that I will not be accused of a personal attack I quote your above remarks: " Your only heartburn is that there is someone posting here that thinks things through while you cannot, or do not!"
Wes, when I have heartburn I take a Tums, you might prefer Rolaids.
In Ephesians 2:20 we are told that the Apostles and prophets were the foundation of the Church: And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Again you are denying Scripture when you state that the Apostles were the builders of the Church as we see in the following Scripture:
Jesus Christ said in Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Jesus Christ states that He will build His Church. Are you denying that statement.
In Acts 2:47b we are told And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.[/b] This passage doesn't say the Apostles added to the Church but that the Lord added to the Church.
By the way Wes Scripture tells us that we are all taught by God:
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
1Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
Poor Wes, I hope you are not going to deny these Scripture or say that they are only applicable to the Apostles!
Wes the elect are anything but nebulous. God knows the name of each one of them and has since before the foundation of the world!!!!![Ephesians 1:2-6]
Wes, to whom was Peter writing when he stated in his first epistle?
1 Peter 1:1,2
1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
He was writing to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. These strangers he identifies as the elect. Surely you are not going to argue that he was writing to the Apostles? They were not strangers to Peter. He knew them all!
Wes, where does Scripture state that the "Apostles were in the Pattern of the Son of God"?
One thing we know is that there were more than 12. We are told in 1Corinthians 15:6 that there were at more than 500 brothers: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
Come on Wes, wake up, admit you are wrong!