God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens.

[Martin Marprelate]

Thanks for proving the cognitive dissonance where God predestined all things that shall ever come to pass, while at the same time saying God did not predestine all thing that shall ever come to pass.

The Confession simply shows what God's word says; it is you who believes that God's word is 'twaddle' because it does not comply with your fallen human logic. I provided Romans 11:33-36 on another thread. It seems apposite here.

 

[AustinC]

Actually Job was perfect despite God’s sovereignty. Which refutes the whole of Reformed theology. There is nothing about God that forced Job to be perfect. One can call it self righteousness, but in name only. Job was not self righteous because that is what he was accused of being. He ended up being self-righteous because he did question God and because of the accusations of his friends. He listened to his friends and not God.

Satan accused Job of only being righteous because God’s Sovereignty blessed Job. But was Job righteous because of God’s blessings? No.

His wife accused Job of being too righteous. She just wanted him to sin and die.

His friends blamed God, by thinking God was punishing Job. Job was not being punished. But because of the words of his friends, his self righteousness did start. Job would not be wrong in justifying a sinless lifestyle. Job would be wrong in rationalizing he was blameless before God.

God's Sovereignty as an argument is wrong about predestination and foreknowledge. Paul already explained Calvin's points. Going past Paul is the issue. Reformed theology adds interpretation to the fact of God's Sovereignty to a point that Paul would not answer. Not because Paul had no answer, but because it cannot be found in any Scripture, not even Job. Job was not predestined to be blessed, nor was foreknowledge mentioned. If that were the case, should Satan use that instead of the blessings themselves? Why did Satan not say that God predestined Job to be a perfect human without fault? Was God lying about predestination and foreknowledge by not stating it in Satan's accusations? If God really taught Reformed theology, would not Job be the book to declare it? Did God predestine the apostasy of the last days which would cause a huge reduction in who gets saved?

Or is the church being tested like Job, and just going to come out the same with self-righteous rationalizations? The chief rationalization, that God just condemns some to hell, because God can. The rationalization that Atonement is limited. The rationalization that humans are depraved, but going a step further that this depravity nullifies free will. All these points do not justify God's Sovereignty. They only rationalize a false interpretation that tried to explain what Paul had already settled in the 1st century. Reformed theology itself brought on this apostate condition. The church (Job) listened to false teachings like that of Job's friends rationalizing God’s Word, instead of the church, each individual, keeping in the Word of God themselves.

When God says Job was blameless, he is not saying Job was sinless and perfect. That's just silly thinking on your part. In Job 1 we read that Job was offering up sacrifices for his whole family in atonement for their sins. This is only done when you know you are a sinner. Blameless does not mean sinless. Job was doing everything according to God's will when he sinned, thus God calls him blameless.
Read the book of Job sometime. Note that God brings up Job's name, not Satan. God is using Satan and playing him like a fiddle to display his Sovereignty in Job's life. Has it not been for the fact that Job was well versed in God's Sovereignty and also gifted faith by God, Job would have folded like a cheap suit. But God gave him the capacity to persevere.
Job 1:20-21 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
2:10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.
Job 19:25-27 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!

Tim, you completely misunderstand the Book of Job and thus you miss this great book that declares the goodness and sovereignty of God. That's a shame, but it explains to some extent why you fail to grasp God's Sovereignty in all things.

 

[Derf B]

This is your false assertion, either intentional or out of ignorance.
God certainly ordains that men follow their sinful desires and God either chooses to intervene or allow, based solely upon His predetermined will for His creation.

What you reveal is the fact that you cannot face the wretchedness of your own sin and how evil that makes you. Moreso, you want all the control to fix your own problem without God.

When does God ordain men to follow their sinful desires? Before they experience those desires or after?

If before the beginning of the world, how does God know a particular person will have particular desires?

 

[AustinC]

When does God ordain men to follow their sinful desires? Before they experience those desires or after?

If before the beginning of the world, how does God know a particular person will have particular desires?

How does the all knowing God not know?
If God knows the number of hairs on a person's head is it too much to know exactly what is going to happen and why even before it happens?
Honestly, it seems you are imagining God as being a finite human.

 

[Derf B]

How does the all knowing God not know?
If God knows the number of hairs on a person's head is it too much to know exactly what is going to happen and why even before it happens?
Honestly, it seems you are imagining God as being a finite human.

Did God know how many hairs you would have before He decided to make the world? Jesus said The Father “numbers” the hairs. That’s another way of saying He counts them. Are you disagreeing with Jesus?

There are lots of verses that say God knows things by observing them.
Psalms 139:1 (KJV) O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known [me].
Hebrews 4:13 (KJV) Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Are you disagreeing with those verses?

Can you point to a verse that says God just automatically knows stuff about you?

 

[AustinC]

Did God know how many hairs you would have before He decided to make the world? Jesus said The Father “numbers” the hairs. That’s another way of saying He counts them. Are you disagreeing with Jesus?

There are lots of verses that say God knows things by observing them.
Psalms 139:1 (KJV) O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known [me].
Hebrews 4:13 (KJV) Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Are you disagreeing with those verses?

Can you point to a verse that says God just automatically knows stuff about you?

Yes, God knew everything about everything before time existed. God created time, which means God lives outside of time.
Lewis Sperry Chafer, in his systematic theology volumes, explains this by asking people to imagine themselves as people in a parade, but God is watching the parade from a blimp. God sees the beginning and end simultaneously as well as everything in-between.
God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all- seeing and always in complete control. You cannot take God by surprise.

Do you not believe any of those things? Is God weak and incapacitated by the future?

 

[timtofly]

When God says Job was blameless, he is not saying Job was sinless and perfect. That's just silly thinking on your part. In Job 1 we read that Job was offering up sacrifices for his whole family in atonement for their sins. This is only done when you know you are a sinner. Blameless does not mean sinless. Job was doing everything according to God's will when he sinned, thus God calls him blameless.
Read the book of Job sometime. Note that God brings up Job's name, not Satan. God is using Satan and playing him like a fiddle to display his Sovereignty in Job's life. Has it not been for the fact that Job was well versed in God's Sovereignty and also gifted faith by God, Job would have folded like a cheap suit. But God gave him the capacity to persevere.
Job 1:20-21 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
2:10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.
Job 19:25-27 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!

Tim, you completely misunderstand the Book of Job and thus you miss this great book that declares the goodness and sovereignty of God. That's a shame, but it explains to some extent why you fail to grasp God's Sovereignty in all things.

Except you know very little about me. Saying I do not grasp the Sovereignty of God is a guess on your part. What does righteousness mean to you? Elihu could not be more righteous than Job according to you, if you do not know the full story of Sovereignty.

 

[AustinC]

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
His understanding is infinite.
1 John 3:20
in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
Psalm 139:4
Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.
Matthew 10:30
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Psalm 147:4
He counts the number of the stars;
He gives names to all of them.
Hebrews 4:13
And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Psalm 44:21
Would not God find this out?
For He knows the secrets of the heart.
1 Chronicles 28:9
“As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.
Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard?
The Everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth
Does not become weary or tired.
His understanding is inscrutable.
Isaiah 46:9-10
“Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
1 Kings 8:39
then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive and act and render to each according to all his ways, whose heart You know, for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men,
Acts 1:24
And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
14 Bible verses about God, Omniscience Of

 

[AustinC]

Except you know very little about me. Saying I do not grasp the Sovereignty of God is a guess on your part. What does righteousness mean to you? Elihu could not be more righteous than Job according to you, if you do not know the full story of Sovereignty.

I know you have very little understanding of what God was saying about Job and what God was doing with Satan. I suggest you actually study the book of Job and then share. What you claimed about Job being perfect is just silly.

 

[timtofly]

I know you have very little understanding of what God was saying about Job and what God was doing with Satan. I suggest you actually study the book of Jodeb and then share. What you claimed about Job being perfect is just silly.

So now God is silly for pointing out that Job was righteous in God's eyes?

 

[Derf B]

Yes, God knew everything about everything before time existed. God created time, which means God lives outside of time.
Lewis Sperry Chafer, in his systematic theology volumes, explains this by asking people to imagine themselves as people in a parade, but God is watching the parade from a blimp. God sees the beginning and end simultaneously as well as everything in-between.
God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all- seeing and always in complete control. You cannot take God by surprise.

Do you not believe any of those things? Is God weak and incapacitated by the future?

I’m not going to be convinced just because you make the claim. Can you give me scriptural support? Or is God not able to describe Himself well enough, that someone needs to add to it?

 

[MartyF]

God is God.

This is an excellent example of circular reasoning

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Actually Job was perfect despite God’s sovereignty.

If Job was 'perfect,' why do you think he needed to repent in dust and ashes (Job 42:6)?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God is God.

This is an excellent example of circular reasoning

It is actually a very important statement and one which people are very prone to forget or ignore. God found it necessary to remind the Israelites, 'I am God, your God!' (Psalms 50:7) and to rebuke then with the words, 'You thought I was altogether like you!' (Psalms 50:21).
Humans are often prone to make God in their image and cast Him as just a somewhat great greater version of themselves, but He is actually not like us (Isaiah 55:8-11). I think it is good to consider what are called the 'incommunicable attributes' of God - that is, those attributes which mankind does not share in any way.
God is self-existent - we are created.
God is eternal - we are temporal.
God is immutable - we are changeable.
God is infinite - we are limited.
God is perfect - we are imperfect.
God is omniscient - we know in part.
God is omnipotent - such limited power as we have is derived from Him.
God is 'simple;' that is, He is not composed of parts as we are and therefore not susceptible to division - we are complex.

God is God; we are not.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

At least some bible knowledge is indicated by this post. How refreshing!
But why was my quote edited to eliminate the answer?

To spare readers your customary ranting. They are still able to read it on your post.

In Romans 8:29-30 those that have been placed in Christ are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Predestined to be saved is no where to be found.

Nowhere does Romans 8:29-30 speak of anyone being 'placed in Christ.' But do you believe that someone conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ may still end up in hell? 'Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified' (v.30). Do you believe that someone can be justified and glorified and yet not be saved?

In Ephesians 1:5 God predestined those that have been placed in Christ to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming. Again, predestined to be saved is no where to be found.

Again, there is no mention in Ephesians 1:5 of anyone being 'placed in Christ.' Do you believe that someone can be adopted as a son by Jesus Christ and not be saved?

In Ephesians 1:11 the predestined "inheritance" refers to our redemption, so once again, predestined to be saved is no where to be found.

The verse nowhere speaks of 'redemption,' though certainly that is in view. But do you believe that one can be redeemed and yet not be saved? The verse tells us that God predestines 'all things.' Do you suppose that salvation is somehow not included in 'all things'?

In 1 Corinthians 2:7 the Lord of Glory (Christ Jesus) was predestined before the ages, so predestined to salvation is no where to be found.

'This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners......' (1 Timothy 1:15). So if Christ was predestined before the ages, so was salvation.

In Acts of the Apostles 4:28 the predestined plan for Christ to suffer and die is in view, but predestined to salvation is no where to be found.

1 Timothy 1:15 applies again. Christ came 'to give His life a ransom for many' (Mark 10:45).

 

[1689Dave]

Yep, Calvinists claim God predestined our each and every sin, then punishes us for doing what He compelled us to do.

Why pray "Lead us not into temptation"?

 

[Van]

This is an utterly false assertion born by your ignorance or dogma. That is not Calvinism on display...that is Vanism on display.

Name calling on display.

That is not the definition of God's Sovereignty.
John Piper has provided a more accurate definition.
There are no limits to God’s rule. This is part of what it means to be God. He is sovereign over the whole world, and everything that happens in it. He is never helpless, never frustrated, never at a loss. And in Christ, God’s awesome, sovereign providence is the place we feel most reverent, most secure, most free.

Piper's statement is completely consistent with God causing or allowing whatsoever comes to pass. So deflection on display.

God Is Sovereign over the Universe
Whenever God acts, he acts in a way that pleases him. God is never constrained to do a thing that he despises. He is never backed into a corner where his only recourse is to do something he hates to do. He does whatever he pleases.
The Sovereignty of God

When we say God is sovereign, we mean he is powerful and authoritative to the extent of being able to override all other powers and authorities. That’s my effort at a definition. Nothing can successfully stop any act or any event or design or purpose that God intends to certainly bring about.
What Is the Sovereignty of God?

Both of these statements address that God is indeed all powerful, and thus if God chooses to not allow something it does not happen. On and on folks, denial of the obvious.

 

[Van]

The Confession simply shows what God's word says; it is you who believes that God's word is 'twaddle' because it does not comply with your fallen human logic. I provided Romans 11:33-36 on another thread. It seems apposite here.

Yet another "taint so" post. If God predestines whatsoever comes to pass, He causes the sin He punishes us for committing. Twaddle

 

[Van]

To spare readers your customary ranting. They are still able to read it on your post SNIP .

No need to address this twaddle, I have presented the biblical refutations many time.

 

[Van]

Why pray "Lead us not into temptation"?

Now we have the subject change effort. Because we can choose to follow God's will for our life, we ask for the path which provides the greatest glory to God.