God made them the vessels of wrath !

[DaveXR650]

The issue in some circles with irresistible grace is what it teaches. Calvin taught that man has no choice in salvation, therefore, the elect can't reject it. The result is "once saved always saved."

Yes it is what it teaches. But the Calvinistic confessions teach election according to the sovereignty of God and that the free will of a creature is not violated. And even modern guys like R.C. Sproul did not like the "I" and wished they could change it to "E" for effectual grace.

That the result is once saved always saved is not really true for two reasons. One. The Baptists are usually on the page that they were the one choosing to believe. Look at Flowers's Provisionism , which he likes to call "Traditionalism" as if it was the original Baptist position. Anyway, the Baptist once saved always saved was modified by some of the free grace guys like Ryrie to mean that once you were saved you could do anything you want and could not loose your salvation even if you tried to defect from the faith. This is not what the Calvinists taught in the 1600's for sure. They taught instead that a saint would persevere and works and sanctification would occur and indeed they must occur. That would be reason two. They did view the "P" as comfort for those who feared they might fall away or feared they were not doing well enough but it is far different from the free grace Baptist position.

It's been my experience that Calvinism brings up many bitter arguments. I guess that's why I'm in such opposition to it, and can't keep my mouth shut, lol.

That is does but I'm not sure which side is causing this. I personally find the actual theological differences no cause for getting upset and consider us all brothers, from semi-Pelagians on up thru High-Calvinists and Primitive Baptists. What I do think is worth fighting over is the shallowness and lack of seriousness that had developed in the Baptist circles I was in in recent years. A good dose of Calvinist preaching whether from Paul Washer or from John Owen has been very beneficial in correcting some of this. But Wesley would have been fine too, I guess.

 

[kyredneck]

It's been my experience that Calvinism brings up many bitter arguments.

...it's been my experience, on this board particularly, that's it's the ranting anti-Cals that disturb the peace.

 

[Charlie24]

...it's been my experience, on this board particularly, that's it's the ranting anti-Cals that disturb the peace.

Hello kyredneck.

I'm new here so I'll take your word for that! Hopefully I won't be adding to the problem.

But I can't promise you anything just yet.

 

[kyredneck]

I'm new here

Lol, at some point you'll have to drop that excuse. Admit it, you're anti-Cal. You'll feel sooo much better.

 

[Charlie24]

Lol, at some point you'll have to drop that excuse. Admit it, you're anti-Cal. You'll feel sooo much better.

Does that mean we're enemies? Should I avoid conversation with you?

I'm new here, lol. I'm still stumbling around trying the find my place.

I think, well I'm sure you're the first PB I've met on the boards.

 

[Brightfame52]

It can't be only the elect! These people mentioned by Peter didn't make it.

2 Peter 21-22

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

So much for irresistible grace, it ain't happening, my friend.

Those weren't the elect in that context but the ones God made vessels of wrath and fitted for destruction

 

[Charlie24]

Those weren't the elect in that context but the ones God made vessels of wrath and fitted for destruction

But they were the elect! Peter made that clear in 2 Peter 2:21-22.

By the way, these are false teachers that Peter is speaking of. They were once on the right path with Christ but have now,

vs 15 "have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Boser, who loved the wages of unrighteousness."

 

[kyredneck]

Does that mean we're enemies? Should I avoid conversation with you?

Absolutely not. You’re a nice guy, I like you.

 

[Brightfame52]

But they were the elect! Peter made that clear in 2 Peter 2:21-22.

By the way, these are false teachers that Peter is speaking of. They were once on the right path with Christ but have now,

vs 15 "have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Boser, who loved the wages of unrighteousness."

No they werent elect, thats your misunderstanding

 

[Charlie24]

No they werent elect, thats your misunderstanding

It sure looks that way to me, along with many other verses of Scripture.

But I understand, if osas is proven to be false, then Calvinism as you know it ceases to exist.

 

[Charlie24]

It sure looks that way to me, along with many other verses of Scripture.

But I understand, if osas is proven to be false, then Calvinism as you know it ceases to exist.

The end result of 5 pt. Calvinism is osas. How do you justify that in these verses?

Ezekiel 18:21-24

"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

 

[kyredneck]

How do you justify that in these verses?

Ezekiel 18:21-24

To whom are these words addressed? Israel. (not Egypt or Babylon or Persia or Assyria or Greece or any other pagan nation, just Israel, God's chosen people)

Can God's children do wickedly? Yes.

Can God's children do righteously. Yes.

Life and death in the context is not about the eternal salvation of the soul.

 

[Charlie24]

To whom are these words addressed? Israel. (not Egypt or Babylon or Persia or Assyria or Greece or any other pagan nation, just Israel, God's chosen people)

Can God's children do wickedly? Yes.

Can God's children do righteously. Yes.

Life and death in the context is not about the eternal salvation of the soul.

Well, ky, we certainly disagree on this, my friend!

The last line in vs. 24 "and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

Dying in your sin is beyond a shadow of doubt the loss of one's soul.

 

[kyredneck]

Dying in your sin is beyond a shadow of doubt the loss of one's soul.

No, it isn't, only in your imagination. You think Solomon is in hell?

 

[Charlie24]

No, it isn't, only in your imagination. You think Solomon is in hell?

If he didn't repent, he is!

Look, ky, I could push this with many other verses of Scripture, but I'm not going to for the sake of our friendship.

We both believe in justification by faith, and both of us are trusting in the finished work of Christ for our salvation. Why push it? There's no need to build a higher barrier than is already present.

 

[kyredneck]

If he didn't repent, he is!

I'm sooo glad the likes of you are not The Judge.

4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods; and his heart was not perfect with Jehovah his God, as was the heart of David his father. 1 Ki 11

Indication is that he died unrepentant, yet he penned a significant portion of holy writ and is in the direct lineage of Jesus Christ.

FYI, I've conversed with several from other denominations in the past that insist there's no way he could be in heaven.

Look, ky, I could push this with many other verses of Scripture, but I'm not going to for the sake of our friendship.

Hmm, so you're just one of those 'fair weather friends'?

Why push it? There's no need to build a higher barrier than is already present.

This is funny. What in the world are you doing on the C vs A forum if you're trying to avoid conflict?

 

[kyredneck]

I could push this with many other verses of Scripture

Please, do. I promise, I'll still be you buddy.

 

[Charlie24]

I'm sooo glad the likes of you are not The Judge.

4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods; and his heart was not perfect with Jehovah his God, as was the heart of David his father. 1 Ki 11

Indication is that he died unrepentant, yet he penned a significant portion of holy writ and is in the direct lineage of Jesus Christ.

FYI, I've conversed with several from other denominations in the past that insist there's no way he could be in heaven.



Hmm, so you're just one of those 'fair weather friends'?



This is funny. What in the world are you doing on the C vs A forum if you're trying to avoid conflict?

LOL, it's a matter of one on one interpretation. Who has ever won that battle, and how many have become enemies fighting that battle?

I like to make some points and let the chips fall where they may. Continuing to argue brings nothing but strife and frustration. But I catch myself doing it anyway from time to time.

 

[Charlie24]

Please, do. I promise, I'll still be you buddy.

I think you're the kinda guy that can argue to the bitter end (if the end ever comes) and still shake hands.

 

[Charlie24]

I think you're the kinda guy that can argue to the bitter end (if the end ever comes) and still shake hands.

If you want to make your points for Calvinism, I'll be happy to go to the Scripture and show you where you're wrong! it might even be fun, believing it's done in good faith.