Nah, only if you let it.
It should make you sharp.
Actually, no. I rarely have the last word in a dialogue, not important to me.
I thought we were discussing 'heaven or hell' passages.
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God made them the vessels of wrath !
- Thread starter Brightfame52
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Nah, only if you let it.
It should make you sharp.
Actually, no. I rarely have the last word in a dialogue, not important to me.
I thought we were discussing 'heaven or hell' passages.
That's fine, I have nothing to do this afternoon.
Let's then stick with Ezekiel 18:24,
"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."
How is it possible you can't see this as the loss of one's soul? Christ said the same thing in John 8:24,
"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."
Do you believe that Christ here is referring to the loss of the soul?
Why are you so casual and quick with 'infinity in torment'? I assure you, God is not. After all the wickedness Israel had done after God had redeemed them out of the House of Bondage (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21
Even in unbelief and disobedience they were as righteous as Christ in the eyes of God. (Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)"
For Whom Did Christ Die?... By John Owen
No. ...die in your sins.... | Baptist Christian Forums
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Now since Calvinism says we are all guilty of Adams' sin then we are all vessels of wrath and by your words "There is no opportunity for the vessels of wrath to become the vessels of mercy" then none can be saved.
Or are you going to claim the your elect before the foundation of the world cannot sin so are never vessels of wrath?
Well, let's define something here that I think will help. Let's clarify the difference between back-sliding vs losing faith altogether. Yes, the Scripture definitely teaches one can lose their faith!
All of us can relate to back-sliding because all of us have been there at one point or another in this Christian walk.
But you didn't lose your faith in Christ when you fell back in sin. Those who fall back into sin and lose that faith for whatever reason, they are the ones referred to in Ezek. 18:24.
They died, went to the grave in their sins and are eternally separated from God in Hell.
Like I said, I'm glad folks like you are not going to be The Judge.
18 men who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Howbeit the firm foundation of God standeth, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his: and, Let every one that nameth the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.
20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some unto honor, and some unto dishonor.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, meet for the master's use, prepared unto every good work. 2 Tim 2
For what if some lacked faith? Would their lack of faith nullify the faithfulness of God? Certainly not! Ro 3:3-4
Let's go through Rom. 3:3-4 to see what is actually being said
"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."
Backing up a few verses, Paul is speaking of the Jews, the advantage they had in having the OT Law when no other people in the world had God's Law.
3) "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?"
Paul is telling the Roman Gentiles, the Jews unbelief didn't change the plan of God to save those who do believe.
4) "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."
Paul is answering his own question from vs 3, "let God be true" the problem is not with God, "but every man a liar," the problem is always with man.
"as it is written, (Ps. 51:4) Paul is going back to the sin David committed against God in Uriah, David admitted to God it was all his own doing, God held no blame.
"That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." All of man's sin is a departure from God's way to man's ways.
2 Timothy 2:13: if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Ro 8
GOOD NEWS THIS IS!
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Ro 8
GOOD NEWS THIS IS!
Ok, again, let's back up a verse to see what Paul is saying.
2 Tim. 2:12-13
"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."
"If we suffer" this is the good fight of faith, 1 Tim. 6:12, it will include suffering to keep it. The reward is reigning with Him, but if we deny Him, He will deny us. It's all about keeping the faith!
"Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."
"If we believe not" meaning believing what Christ did for us on the Cross and His resurrection.
"Yet He abides faithful" despite those who believe not, he remains faithful to those who will believe.
"he cannot deny Himself" He will never change His plan of redemption, that would be denying faith for those who believe.
This is assuming one keeps the faith to the end.
Heb. 3:14
"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
Ahhh, the Lord knows my faith, even when others don't.
I love you in the Lord, Brother! And we are Brothers in Christ no matter our Differences.
I know what the Calvinists are trusting in, we are 2 peas in the same pod in the end.
Perhaps someday your faith will be strong.
What does Paul mean by "if you continue"? If "you hold fast"?
....to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1:22,23
Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22
Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2
but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14
You think he's telling us if our faith falters God will punish us eternally?
Are the consequences of 'making shipwreck of the faith' eternal? Or temporal?
Paul is saying unequivocally, you must hold on to faith in Jesus Christ till death or until He comes, if by chance you are alive at that time.
"Shipwreck" in the Greek Is to come to ruin. In the spiritual sense that is the ruin of the soul, the loss of the soul.
You or I could possibly be deep in sin, apart from God at our death or when He comes, if by chance. But still, if you your faith is still in Christ you're going to make it.
But that's not a license to sin, The chastisement of God will find you, and He can severely punish.
Heb. 12:6-7
"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?"
So you say. Says Paul:
19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:
20 of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Tim 1
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Notice that Paul said (I believe Paul wrote Hebrews, but that's beside the point) "IF" you endure chastening.
If you don't respond to God's correction, at some point in His foreknowledge, He cuts you off.
There is warning after warning in the Scripture of this.
Then you'll find yourself in the mix with those in Ezekiel 18:24.
"He cuts you off" = He damns you to hell?
You believe that's the only punishment God delves out? Hell?
Hymenaeus and Alexander have lost faith, they are lost and without God, they have shipwrecked.
But Paul still has hopes that they will repent.
Here's the words from Paul on the matter but a different situation, but same results if they don't repent.
I'm slipping, I almost forgot where to find this verse, pray for me!
1 Cor. 5:5
"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
Paul is still having hope for these people to repent and come back to God, but he knows they have reached the point of no return if God can't bring them back through chastening.