You believe that's the only punishment God delves out? Hell?
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God made them the vessels of wrath !
- Thread starter Brightfame52
- Start date
You believe that's the only punishment God delves out? Hell?
God has no desire that anyone goes to Hell. You know that verse as well as I do.
The bottom line is that faith is what gets you into His Kingdom, not any faith, but faith in the finished work of Christ.
You also know that God suffers long with man, even using His chastening to bring them back into order as we would our own children.
But with some there comes a time when they will no longer respond to God's correction, even though He bears long with them.
Now there is no more faith in Christ, the Way has been forsaken, God in His foreknowledge knows what will happen.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Again thats your misunderstanding
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You way off
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
If you're trying to wear me out, it's working, lol.
We've been at it over 4 hours, I'm having trouble remembering my Scripture verses.
I need a break! Let's pick this up in a few hours, even my fingers are cramping from so much typing.
Give a Brother a break! It's not retiring, it's just a break.
Hello Brightfame52, please don't start in on me now, your comrade has worn me out.
I've got to take a break, catch you later, Brother.
Back to the chase!
I've already responded to this in a previous post.
If man chooses to depart from God, being born-again, God will chasten that child.
If they continue to resist the question is, are they back-sliden but still have faith, or have they lost that faith.
Only God knows the answer to that question no matter what we may think!
Paul says it better than I ever could.
Heb. 3:12-14
"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
I like Calvin, I like reading his commentary, I've learned many things about God's Word from John Calvin.
But my friend, he was wrong on predestination!
If Calvin is wrong then Paul was wrong, along with a myriad of other folks:
29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [is] against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8
You make the same mistake as all the other 'free-willers', that faith is a choice, a decision of the creature. It is not. It's a conviction, a deep convincing of things not seen, and it requires the work of the Spirit to bring us to that point. Faith is not of ourselves.
Perhaps someday your faith will be strong enough that you will accept this truth and rejoice in it instead of resisting it.
Don't beat up yourself, Calvin got it wrong before you did!
It's not the individual person that's predestinated, it's God's plan of redemption that is predestined for the individual "to be conformed into the image of His Son."
The ones called and justified are the ones "He foreknew" would accept that call.
That call comes through the hearing of the Gospel.
Heb. 3:15-17
"While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?"
You see how most will not accept that call, using the Hebrews in the wilderness as an example?
You are totally disregarding the plain context of scripture. Election/predestination is individual:
29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9
That's correct! Every individual has been predestined to hear the call. But the predestination is God's plan not that He chose certain individuals.
Pay attention, ky, look at what I'm showing you. Even the Hebrews in the wilderness heard the Gospel, but what did they do with it?
Heb. 4:2
"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."
Can you see that the Hebrews in the wilderness made a choice not to believe God?
I'm beginning to think that you're just dense, or maybe the meaning of pronouns escapes you. I don't know how much plainer the scripture could be. Election/predestination is individual.
<sigh> Once more:
"Why are you so casual and quick with 'infinity in torment'? I assure you, God is not. After all the wickedness Israel had done after God had redeemed them out of the House of Bondage (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21"
3 For what if some were without faith? shall their want of faith make of none effect the faithfulness of God? Ro 3
Hell, hell, hell, hell on the brain. God does not send His own to hell, ever.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Just taking things to the logical conclusion of your theology. I did quote your words so what is your problem?
You're very confused right now, but I'm willing to work through this if you are.
Let's take another step, moving over to Heb. 3:17-19,
"But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."
Do you see it better now? God gave them the Gospel, He called them, but they went to Hell because they refused to believe.
It's past my bedtime.
If you can't see it yet, don't worry, we have several avenues to cover to ensure that you can see it.
But that will be for Monday, tomorrow is Church.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Okay so your logical conclusion is way off
"But Israel still yet reaped in this temporal realm for their wickedness after being redeemed from the House of Bondage, they wandered for forty years in the waste places when they could have possessed the Land of Milk and Honey, the Sabbath Rest of God, i.e., the abundant life in Christ. Romans 14:17
Yet during all their wandering/chastening in the Wilderness He still yet gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always, i.e., He remained faithful.
So you see, there were only temporal consequences for their unbelief. There were no eternal consequences."
You've a very active imagination.