psalms109:31
Active Member
I am reading it, that is why I posted that scripture to see both sides and finding where God is in the pillar of cloud, because Moses can't see His face and live. Face to face in the cloud pillar.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
God's knowledge debate
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
- Status
I am reading it, that is why I posted that scripture to see both sides and finding where God is in the pillar of cloud, because Moses can't see His face and live. Face to face in the cloud pillar.
It is explained in Exo 33. In verse 11 its says the Lord spoke to Moses "face to face". In verse 18 Moses requests to see God's glory (not his face). God tells Moses he will show him ALL his goodness, but he cannot see his face in this state.
So, I think it is obvious that when God spoke to Moses face to face it was in a limited form, not ALL his goodness.
Nevertheless, even though God spoke to Moses in this limited form, it was enough to make Moses's face shine.
But there are many other examples of men who saw God such as Abraham and Jacob. So, I believe 1 Jn 4:12 is saying no man has seen God in his full glory.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Exodus 33:
19 And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
21 Then the LORD said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”
I agree that Moses wanted to see His glory, but look what God said in return
God had to be veiled in the pillar of cloud for Moses can talk to God face to face.
To see His face without a veil is to see His glory, as we see God through Jesus with unveiled faces and live.
Last edited by a moderator:
preacher4truth
Active Member
No one has seen God at any time. A clear and intact dogma that negates other "proof-texts" given to disprove it.
Below is a link about Omniscience, and defending it against subtle attacks.
First a quote:
- Herman Bavinck
Another;
- William Shed
The above is why when God said to Abraham "Now I know" (Genesis 22:12) doesn't mean He just learned a thing. That is erroneous and denies the plain fact God does know all things at all times.
A passage that others use to limit God:
"'He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." Acts 1:7-8
Note that Jesus never said He didn't know the time of His return, only that the Father kept that in His own authority, and that it was not for THEM (the disciples) to know.
So much for the "Jesus didn't know, God doesn't know all things, He has limitted Himself" notion.
Of course Jesus knew, He is God but it was under authority of the Father that of course this not be revealed to the disciples nor unto men. Thats what is meant, God the Father would reveal it, not that God the Son didn't know. :thumbsup:
Anyhow here is a link exposing the errors of this view I'm against, and how it is defended:
http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/opentheism.htm
Yes, I know, I'll be attacked for my apology here of Gods Omniscience. No biggie. Such is the status quo in the church today. I gladly make my apology for this.
- Peace
Last edited by a moderator:
You are completely ignoring verse 11.
Exo 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
This was said in verse 11 before Moses requested to see his glory in verse 18.
It was only after God agreed to show Moses "all my goodness" that God told Moses he could not see his face.
Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
So, verse 20 does not negate verse 11. There was a reason now that Moses could not see God's face, God was going to reveal his glory, all his goodness to Moses. This is similar to when Jesus showed himself to the disciples on the mount of transfiguration. Had they seen Jesus's face before? YES.
And, as I showed in Chapter 34, it says Moses always took his vail off before he entered the tabernacle and spoke with God.
Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.
32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.
33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.
34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.
35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
Nowhere does it say that God had a vail on his face, that is an assumption on your part not supported by scripture. Moses face shone because he was speaking to God face to face as a friend. When Moses appeared before the people he had to wear a vail, but whenever he went into the tabernacle to speak to God he took the vail off.
You can believe what you want, but Exo 33:11 says Moses spoke to God face to face.
And, as I showed earlier, Abraham saw God.
Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
This is simple and straightforward, verse 1 says the Lord "appeared" to Abraham. Verse 2 says he "lift up his eyes and looked" and when he "saw them". One of these three men was the Lord, as Abraham says in verse 3.
Pretty hard to ignore the language used, "appeared" "eyes" "looked" "saw". I don't see how anyone can deny that Abraham did not literally see the Lord.
Last edited by a moderator:
preacher4truth
Active Member
Nope. He gave context to show and to prove you maintain a deficient interpretation.
psalm 109:31 employed contextual analysis, not proof-text methodology that you and others use. Thus his conclusions are correct.
- Peace
Last edited by a moderator:
psalms109:31
Active Member
Scripture
God has revealed Himself through feeble men.
The Holy Spirit does not need to be taught or to learn.
We need to listen and learn and God has revealed Himself through His word that He has given through men. Just as the Son of man had to be taught, not the Son of God. What He was taught He revealed to us, because everything He learned from the Father He has made known to us.
To just trust in God and not our self has to be taught and learned.
Hebrews 5:
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
God has revealed Himself through feeble men.
The Holy Spirit does not need to be taught or to learn.
We need to listen and learn and God has revealed Himself through His word that He has given through men. Just as the Son of man had to be taught, not the Son of God. What He was taught He revealed to us, because everything He learned from the Father He has made known to us.
To just trust in God and not our self has to be taught and learned.
Hebrews 5:
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
psalms109:31
Active Member
May God bless you and enrich you through His word.
No, you are ignorning verse 11 that says God spoke to Moses face to face. Only after God agreed to show Moses "all my goodness" in verse 19 did God say Moses could not see his face and live.
This very same thing happened with Jesus.
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Is Jesus God? YES. Did Peter, James, and John see Jesus's face on a daily basis? YES. But on this occasion Jesus showed Peter, James, and John his glory. Jesus's face shone like the sun.
And this is what Moses saw when he spoke to the Lord face to face, that is why Moses's face also glowed when he had spoken to God.
On the mount of transfiguration Jesus only showed Peter, James, and John a limitied view of his glory. If he had shown ALL his glory they would have dropped dead on the spot.
But Jesus didn't walk around all the time glowing like the sun did he? So, you must admit he limited himself when he appeared as a normal man.
Last edited by a moderator:
preacher4truth
Active Member
Unecessary is bolded.
Nope, you misundertand still. So nope, there is nothing for me to admit to, in doing so would be to embrace your error.
I answered you about the limitting God fallacy, thoroughly. You haven't even had time to go look at my rebuttal of your theoolgy, and the link I gave you showing where this error is most notorious.
One more time here:
Carnal used in theological debate as we are doing is nothing more than an ad hominem as it is used as in a sinful manner, opposite of the Spirit. You know exactly what you were trying to say...but now are trying to sprinkle it with sugar as to say "what, me attack anyone?"
It is apparent you have no idea what is in store for man, the earth, time, etc....so continuing this discussion with you is fruitless. We are on two polar opposite views. My view is based on Scripture, btw, not "fleshly understanding". I take Scripture at face value when it speaks of resurrection, I don't interpret into some fantasy science fiction understanding.
You don't even know what Baptists believe...no way you know what the JW's believe. Christ gave me eternal life as I am in HIM who is eternal. I have a beginning. I will have no end. This is Christianity 101 and should be easy to grasp.
You never answered how there will be a half hour silence in Heaven.
How all of those who die without being saved by grace of God, will they be living on forever?
I don't recall ever saying they do. Life is only in Christ.
Just was asking if you hold to "conditional Immortality"
Just saints live forever, that sinners go to hell and all get "burned up?"
No, don't hold to annhilationism.
PFT; thanks for the link in your post 184....Read it all and enjoyed seeing the reformed perspective. Found this gem a bit over the top though
"Is open theism a temptation for Reformed churches? Probably not. Let us beware, however, for the slippery slope of apostasy which leads to open theism, begins with a denial of the sovereignty of God and an embracing of Arminianism. This is the case with Clark Pinnock whose spiritual pilgrimage is the tragic departure from the truth of Calvinism, via the false gospel of Arminianism, to the idolatry of open theism. It is true that not all Arminians have become open theists. Nevertheless, open theism is consistent Arminianism. By continuing to combat Arminianism in all its forms the Reformed churches will be protected from open theism."
"Is open theism a temptation for Reformed churches? Probably not. Let us beware, however, for the slippery slope of apostasy which leads to open theism, begins with a denial of the sovereignty of God and an embracing of Arminianism. This is the case with Clark Pinnock whose spiritual pilgrimage is the tragic departure from the truth of Calvinism, via the false gospel of Arminianism, to the idolatry of open theism. It is true that not all Arminians have become open theists. Nevertheless, open theism is consistent Arminianism. By continuing to combat Arminianism in all its forms the Reformed churches will be protected from open theism."
preacher4truth
Active Member
You're welcome Cypress. Some interesting insight there, and some of us find ourselves fighting for the Sovereignty and attributes of God.
- Peace and Grace
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Did God ask Adam "Where art thou?" because He really did not know, or did He ask it to convict Adam and reveal his sin?
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Did God in His eternal, omnipresent nature have to "go to" and "go down" anywhere, or is it an anthropomorphism to emphasize Him transcending and being "above" humanity?
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Did God have to "go down and see" if these wicked people had actually repented? I thought God knew all things that were "knowable" (past and present) according to the Open View.
When openness proponents major on the anthropomorphic and anthropopathic figures of speech that relate to finite humanity, they will only get themselves burned with ones that appear to limit God to physical shapes or locations and even limit his knowledge of the present clearly viewable.
God speaks to man in language they can understand. God can use a literary device called an understatement, which can actually emphasize (rather than retract from) certain key issues.
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Did God ask Adam "Where art thou?" because He really did not know, or did He ask it to convict Adam and reveal his sin?
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Did God in His eternal, omnipresent nature have to "go to" and "go down" anywhere, or is it an anthropomorphism to emphasize Him transcending and being "above" humanity?
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Did God have to "go down and see" if these wicked people had actually repented? I thought God knew all things that were "knowable" (past and present) according to the Open View.
When openness proponents major on the anthropomorphic and anthropopathic figures of speech that relate to finite humanity, they will only get themselves burned with ones that appear to limit God to physical shapes or locations and even limit his knowledge of the present clearly viewable.
God speaks to man in language they can understand. God can use a literary device called an understatement, which can actually emphasize (rather than retract from) certain key issues.
Exactly.
Nothing could be simpler to understand.
Let me explain why these people deny this.
They know if they yield to the REAL doctrine of God's omniscience then they will have to yield that God is exhaustively sovereign and thus Calvinism is true.
You nailed it here.
Winman doesn't consider that N
NE- I mean NNE agrees with him here.N
NE agrees that mortal man can look upon the face of God and live.But Winman's HUMONGOUS problem is that he doesn't CARE that he is the ONLY PERSON ON EARTH IN HISTORY who sees many passages the way he sees them.
He has said UNABASHEDLY that he does not NEED human help to interpret Scripture.
He has the Holy Ghost as opposed to everyone else on earth who disagrees with him.
That is enough so far as he is concerned.
And I am not being inflammatory.
He has LITERALLY SAID THIS. He has literally SAID, in no uncertain terms, that he needs NO teacher- so he doesn't need ANYONE to help him understand Scripture.
THAT'S how he comes up with this madness.
And the church is EAT UP with that kind of arrogance today. I believe that, at different levels, is more responsible than ANY OTHER FACTOR for the apostasy of our culture.
- Status