God's knowledge debate

[preacher4truth]

No, Exo 33:11 says God and Moses spoke face to face, but you denied it.

I do not say God is not omniscient or omnipotent, I say scripture shows God limiting himself at times for a purpose, as when he allowed Jacob to prevail in a wrestling match.

I believe there is a purpose for this. For example, God seems to have limited his omniscience when he asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and exclaimed, for NOW I know that thou fearest God, SEEING thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Why would God limit his knowledge here? I suggest he did it for our benefit. God could have simply said Abraham believed God and left it at that. But how would a believer relate to that?

But by limiting his knowledge at this specific time and place and testing Abraham, he show all believers what true faith is. Faith or trust is more than words, a true Christian must be willing to commit to God, even if that means giving up what is most dear to him.

So, by limiting his knowledge, God was able to demonstrate what true faith is.

That doesn't mean God at the same time was everywhere, and knew everything. I believe he only limited his knowledge at this specific time and place for Abraham, in order to teach all believers who should follow.

The Bible declares that no man has ever seen God. Dogma. I gave you these plain passages.

You're misunderstanding the passages at hand.

You're misundertanding also omniscience. No matter how you spin it you deny God knows all things at all times by what you've stated. Again, you know what Scriptures say. What they mean is more important.

It's like this: Clearly Scriptures teach Jesus is God. Correct? That's Dogma. You do know what dogma means, do you not? If not look it up.

Groups go to "proof-texts" that seem to deny this as "proof" He isn't.

You have employed this same hermeneutic and methodology thus you come to erroneous conclusions.

(Note nowhere have I said you deny deity, as I'm certain that would be raised by you or others)

I say you use the same erroneous methodology as described above that leads you to deficient interpretations.

 

[Aaron]

I'm arguing with you. You are not Him....and I am not "carnal." Try leaving your trolling comments out of civil discussions.

You may want to work to enrich your word power. Carnal means natural or fleshly. I've used the term to describe certain divisions of the Law, because the Apostle does so. He also uses the term, as do I, to describe the natural needs of ministers, like food and clothing.

Insisting that our eternal experience will be anything like our natural experience is by definition natural thinking—especially since we've been told in a straightfoward, explicit manner that the mind of man hasn't even conceived of the things that await those who love God. This is the way I see it. It's how this thinking is described in the Scriptures. It is not trolling, vitriol, uncivil, or otherwise insensitive to state it as such. If there is one thing that is the furthest from my mind when interacting here, it's taking pains to consider the varying degrees of literacy of the membership.

I can tell you how I have eternal life...I am in Christ, the only one with no end and no beginning. This does not mean I have no beginning...but since being placed in Him I have no end. Maybe you think you have an end, but then maybe it's also time to face the fact we walk through the shadow of death with a bodily resurrection of body and universe (complete with time) in store.

I'm sure you can explain away the half hour of silence in Heaven....

And I've already answered this. You say you have eternal life, but then you describe something temporal. Why even use the word, "eternal?" You sound like a Jehovah's Witness.

 

[Aaron]

I hope you don't sin a thousand times a day.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

If you think you sin any less, you don't know the law.

 

[Aaron]

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: who loves ya baby?

Certainly not the Noncalvinists! :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Certainly not the Noncalvinists! :laugh:

The Young Turk of BB :applause:

 

[Winman]

The Bible declares that no man has ever seen God. Dogma. I gave you these plain passages.

You're misunderstanding the passages at hand.

You're misundertanding also omniscience. No matter how you spin it you deny God knows all things at all times by what you've stated. Again, you know what Scriptures say. What they mean is more important.

It's like this: Clearly Scriptures teach Jesus is God. Correct? That's Dogma. You do know what dogma means, do you not? If not look it up.

Groups go to "proof-texts" that seem to deny this as "proof" He isn't.

You have employed this same hermeneutic and methodology thus you come to erroneous conclusions.

(Note nowhere have I said you deny deity, as I'm certain that would be raised by you or others)

I say you use the same erroneous methodology as described above that leads you to deficient interpretations.

I know the verse that says no man hath seen God at any time, but the scriptures also say the Lord spoke to Moses face to face. You admit Jesus is God, so you cannot deny that men have seen God. Therefore you must misinterpret 1 Jn 4:12. The story in Exodus explains this seeming contradiction, Moses saw God in a limited form, not in his glory as the passage shows. I do not deny scripture, but you deny Exo. 33:11.

 

[Winman]

To add more, the Jehovah's Witnesses interpret 1 Jn 4:12 just as you do to argue that Jesus is not God.

 

[preacher4truth]

To add more, the Jehovah's Witnesses interpret 1 Jn 4:12 just as you do to argue that Jesus is not God.

Yes, they proof-text as do you. It is an erroneous methodology for properly interpreting the Holy Scriptures.

So actually they precisely share your methodology, which lends itself toward the misinterpretation/misapplication of this passage. Thus you both misunderstand its meaning, not getting past what it says, and into it's Biblical and truthful connotation, hermenuetically interpreted within the whole counsel of God.

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes, they proof-text as do you. It is an erroneous methodology for properly interpreting the Holy Scriptures.

So actually they precisely share your methodology, which lends itself toward the misinterpretation/misapplication of this passage. Thus you both misunderstand its meaning, not getting past what it says, and into it's Biblical and truthful connotation, hermenuetically interpreted within the whole counsel of God.

I have not been following closely, but, does it ever occur to you that perhaps YOU might be the one who erroneously misinterprets and misapplies scripture? Is that even within the realm of possibility?

Follow up question. Looking back on your life as a believer from your vantage point now, was there ever a time in your past that you now feel you interpreted scripture(s) and/or their message incorrectly? If so, what is now the difference?

 

[psalms109:31]

Veil

Did Moses see God face to face veiled or not veiled?

Exodus 33:9 As Moses went into the tent, the pillar of cloud would come down and stay at the entrance, while the LORD spoke with Moses.

 

[preacher4truth]

I have not been following closely...

Then your interjection is premature and unenlightened.

 

[quantumfaith]

Then your interjection is premature and unenlightened.

OK PFT, I am going to resist the temptation to climb back down in the sandbox with you.

 

[Winman]

Yes, they proof-text as do you. It is an erroneous methodology for properly interpreting the Holy Scriptures.

So actually they precisely share your methodology, which lends itself toward the misinterpretation/misapplication of this passage. Thus you both misunderstand its meaning, not getting past what it says, and into it's Biblical and truthful connotation, hermenuetically interpreted within the whole counsel of God.

This is laughable, you are the one misinterpreting 1 Jn 4:12 in exactly the same manner as the JWs do!

You are the very one guilty of proof-texting you accuse me of, forming doctrine from a single verse instead of comparing this verse to all scripture.

 

[preacher4truth]

OK PFT, I am going to resist the temptation to climb back down in the sandbox with you.

No, you're in the sandbox yourself, I stayed out of it.

Hence my former response.

You haven't followed along closely, as you've said, so thus, logically your accusation is uninformed.

 

[preacher4truth]

This is laughable, you are the one misinterpreting 1 Jn 4:12 in exactly the same manner as the JWs do!

You are the very one guilty of proof-texting you accuse me of, forming doctrine from a single verse instead of comparing this verse to all scripture.

Not at all. Typically how you roll is to find an obscure passage that you think negates dogmaa dn you interpret against it. Thus is the employment and methodology of certain groups. This leads to error.

To you, the fact that God is all knowing, and the fact that no man has ever seen God, two dogmas, are erased by misunderstood verses by yourself, but only in your own mind. This is an illogical fallacy.

Furthermore, I gave you sources to help explain words and terms you fail to have a handle on, ans since this is true, they lead you, proof-textingly, to erroneous conclusions of well established dogmas.

I gave you links. This attack upon omniscience is another wave within the church that I won't be a part of accept to fight against its error. Which is why I gave you a link to a message about how omniscience is being attacked, and how persons as yourself hold to proof-texts to do so. This looks at the whole counsel of God, establishing the dogmas, and interpreting other passages within this light.

You need to do the same, but I doubt Winman that you ever will.

Plainly the Bible says no man has seen God at any time. Pretty dogmatic, isn't it? Thus your interpretations of proof-texts against that are faulty at best.

- Peace

 

[Winman]

Did Moses see God face to face veiled or not veiled?

Exodus 33:9 As Moses went into the tent, the pillar of cloud would come down and stay at the entrance, while the LORD spoke with Moses.

That won't work, it says Moses ENTERED the tabernacle, while the cloudy pillar stood at the door. There is no mention of a veil, and it says Moses spoke to God face to face as a man speaks to his friend in vs. 11. The people could see the cloudy pillar, it was outside the tabernacle (vs. 10).

 

[preacher4truth]

That won't work, it says Moses ENTERED the tabernacle, while the cloudy pillar stood at the door. There is no mention of a veil, and it says Moses spoke to God face to face as a man speaks to his friend in vs. 11. The people could see the cloudy pillar, it was outside the tabernacle (vs. 10).

Oh, and by the way? John wrote 1 John. (I know, this should be obvious, but I am assuming nothing.) So, not sure if you know that. Some think it was John Baptist. Not sure if you believed that too.

You know, John the disciple/apostle? Surely he saw Jesus, yes? Yes! Did he see Him in His tranfiguration? Yep!

And he still wrote "No man hath seen God at anytime." Twice. John 1:18. 1 John 4:12. And, he knew the OT Scriptures better than you or I.

Thus he is correct and what he says as dogma; No one has seen God.

- Peace

 

[psalms109:31]

That won't work, it says Moses ENTERED the tabernacle, while the cloudy pillar stood at the door. There is no mention of a veil, and it says Moses spoke to God face to face as a man speaks to his friend in vs. 11. The people could see the cloudy pillar, it was outside the tabernacle (vs. 10).

2 Corinthians 3:
3 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[Or reflect] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Exodus 33:
18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

21 Then the LORD said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

Exodus 34:
The Radiant Face of Moses
29 When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the LORD. 30 When Aaron and all the Israelites saw Moses, his face was radiant, and they were afraid to come near him. 31 But Moses called to them; so Aaron and all the leaders of the community came back to him, and he spoke to them. 32 Afterward all the Israelites came near him, and he gave them all the commands the LORD had given him on Mount Sinai.

33 When Moses finished speaking to them, he put a veil over his face. 34 But whenever he entered the LORD’s presence to speak with him, he removed the veil until he came out. And when he came out and told the Israelites what he had been commanded, 35 they saw that his face was radiant. Then Moses would put the veil back over his face until he went in to speak with the LORD.


The only answer that comes to mind is that God veiled Himself in the pillar of cloud, but even through that face to face God radiance shined on him that he had to veil his face from the people.

 

[Winman]

Not at all. Typically how you roll is to find an obscure passage that you think negates dogmaa dn you interpret against it. Thus is the employment and methodology of certain groups. This leads to error.

To you, the fact that God is all knowing, and the fact that no man has ever seen God, two dogmas, are erased by misunderstood verses by yourself, but only in your own mind. This is an illogical fallacy.

Furthermore, I gave you sources to help explain words and terms you fail to have a handle on, ans since this is true, they lead you, proof-textingly, to erroneous conclusions of well established dogmas.

I gave you links. This attack upon omniscience is another wave within the church that I won't be a part of accept to fight against its error. Which is why I gave you a link to a message about how omniscience is being attacked, and how persons as yourself hold to proof-texts to do so. This looks at the whole counsel of God, establishing the dogmas, and interpreting other passages within this light.

You need to do the same, but I doubt Winman that you ever will.

Plainly the Bible says no man has seen God at any time. Pretty dogmatic, isn't it? Thus your interpretations of proof-texts against that are faulty at best.

- Peace

Amazing, you are oblivious to your own self. You say I make the error of interpreting scripture for WHAT IT SAYS! You said that several times.

Then you tell me to dismiss what scripture plainly says and read articles by biased Reformed authors.

You do not see that you are making these authors your authority, not scripture.

 

[Winman]

Psalms, you are not reading carefully. It doesn't say God had a vail over his face, it says MOSES had a vail over his face. Why? Because Moses face glowed from speaking with God. (Exo 34:29-35).

But when Moses spoke to the Lord he took the vail off.

Exo 34:34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak to him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.
35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

Moses had to wear a vail when he spoke to the people, but when he spoke to God he took the vail off. They spoke face to face, that is WHY Moses's face glowed.