:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: who loves ya baby?
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God's knowledge debate
- Thread starter Van
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:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: who loves ya baby?
I'm arguing with you. You are not Him....and I am not "carnal". Try leaving your trolling comments out of civil discussions.
I can tell you how I have eternal life...I am in Christ, the only one with no end and no beginning. This does not mean I have no beginning...but since being placed in Him I have no end. Maybe you think you have an end, but then maybe it's also time to face the fact we walk through the shadow of death with a bodily resurrection of body and universe (complete with time) in store.
I'm sure you can explain away the half hour of silence in Heaven....
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quantumfaith
Active Member
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
freeatlast
New Member
I hope you don't sin a thousand times a day.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Ever wonder why the spirits complain about waiting in Revelation if some sort of time does not exist in the spiritual realm? Just saying.
Bottom line folks, no evidence, contextually considered has been brought forth to support the contention that God cannot limit His knowledge according to His purpose. On the other hand, several verses demonstrate God did not know some things, such as the time of His return, yet was said to be "all knowing." Therefore it has been demonstrated that the contention that all knowing refers to knowing everything imaginable is in error.
To hide this obvious truth, we have been subjected to name calling, strawmen, generalized assertions and non-germane distractions.
Bottom line folks, no evidence, contextually considered has been brought forth to support the contention that God cannot limit His knowledge according to His purpose. On the other hand, several verses demonstrate God did not know some things, such as the time of His return, yet was said to be "all knowing." Therefore it has been demonstrated that the contention that all knowing refers to knowing everything imaginable is in error.
To hide this obvious truth, we have been subjected to name calling, strawmen, generalized assertions and non-germane distractions.
[QUOTEGod did not know some things][/QUOTE]
This is ungodly thought.....
This is ungodly thought.....
It sure is. Nothing biblical about it at all.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Icon and JBH,
I think you are totally correct.....if one is asserting that CANNOT know somethings, that is he is without the ability to know all things. I do not see Vann asserting this, rather he repeatedly stipulates that he views God as choosing to limit Himself in certain ways.
Before you pounce on me, I am writing this not to be in agreement with Vann, just attempting to clarify Vann's position as "I" read it.
I think you are totally correct.....if one is asserting that CANNOT know somethings, that is he is without the ability to know all things. I do not see Vann asserting this, rather he repeatedly stipulates that he views God as choosing to limit Himself in certain ways.
Before you pounce on me, I am writing this not to be in agreement with Vann, just attempting to clarify Vann's position as "I" read it.
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Yet this is the guy who gives advise on teaching new Christians? :laugh:
Oh I see Just interpreting.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Not true. "God did not know some things?" Erroneous thought and hermeneutic. Thus, this shows limited comprehension, not on the part of God, but on the part of man.
Too many dogmatic Scriptures prove otherwise, as you've been shown. It's your understanding that is lacking, not the power and knowledge of Almighty God.
To hide and turn a blinded eye to the entire counsel of God, which does prove within it He does certainly know all things at all times, and to malign those who hold to this truth, that God is totally, and at all times omniscient, is unfortunate and staus quo of our times.
Some have never dreamed of a day when believers would have to defend this truth from attack. This day is here.
He certainly does always know all things at all times. That the Son and Godhead chose to not put within the knowledge of the Incarnate to know the time of His return does not mean, nor prove, that "God" did "not know some things." To interpret this as such is total error.
No "verse" (proof-texting on part of those attacking this dogma) teaches that "God" "did not know some things," but teach instead that the Father, who is God, kept some things from the Incarnate Son of God. So, now, He, "God" was not limited, nor is it true that "God did not know some things" no matter how you attempt to construe it. He has and will always know all things at all times.
When some verses "seem" to take away from the dogma that, in fact, Almighty God does not know all things, then the interpretation of said verses are erroneous, and, the interpretation and fallacious indictment that God thus along with them is also not all knowing is in error.
To teach otherwise is to imply that God learns things from man and time, and places Him on a plain lower than Holy Other, Almighty, Omniscient, Omnisapient, Omnipotent God, which is veritably impossible.
But, I expect the attack upon this attribute to continue. It takes nothing from Him and who He Is.
- Peace
psalms109:31
Active Member
Know Him
Jesus as Spirit knew everything, but in flesh He was taught. He was only revealed what God wanted to reveal to us, because everything He learned from the Father He has revealed or made known to us.
God revealed Himself through the words of Prophets to a point to prove to the people Jesus had to fulfill the prophesy of men whom God revealed Himself to.
To say that you can throw things out the window you can't understand is Heresy. We are to trust in God and not lean on our own understanding.
God knew that they where sacrificing their children, but it wasn't in His heart or mind for them to do it. So this shows He did not condone it or want it to happen they did it all on their own. He gave them over to their own evil desires
Sacrificing our children is not ever what God wants us to do. To destroy the evil around us that will never change God has ask men to do that.
What happened to His people that did not do what God commanded and married these evil women, did they not bring their worship of who they worshiped into the people of God. I wonder why God wanted the evil to be destroyed around them.
If you want to know where evil is today, it isn't very far. It is closer than you think. Only Jesus can change it, so trust in Him alone.
Ephesians 6:
The Armor of God
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.
Matthew 5:
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Matthew 18:
Jesus Warns of Offenses
6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
I praise God we have Jesus to turn to.
Jesus as Spirit knew everything, but in flesh He was taught. He was only revealed what God wanted to reveal to us, because everything He learned from the Father He has revealed or made known to us.
God revealed Himself through the words of Prophets to a point to prove to the people Jesus had to fulfill the prophesy of men whom God revealed Himself to.
To say that you can throw things out the window you can't understand is Heresy. We are to trust in God and not lean on our own understanding.
God knew that they where sacrificing their children, but it wasn't in His heart or mind for them to do it. So this shows He did not condone it or want it to happen they did it all on their own. He gave them over to their own evil desires
Sacrificing our children is not ever what God wants us to do. To destroy the evil around us that will never change God has ask men to do that.
What happened to His people that did not do what God commanded and married these evil women, did they not bring their worship of who they worshiped into the people of God. I wonder why God wanted the evil to be destroyed around them.
If you want to know where evil is today, it isn't very far. It is closer than you think. Only Jesus can change it, so trust in Him alone.
Ephesians 6:
The Armor of God
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.
Matthew 5:
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Matthew 18:
Jesus Warns of Offenses
6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
I praise God we have Jesus to turn to.
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Bronconagurski
New Member
Ah, but God did know the time of Christ's return, according to the very words of Jesus.
Mark 13:32 (NASB)
32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Does Jesus now know the time of His return. I think He does. But the Father has always known. That doesn't make Jesus any less God, nor the Father any more God. Let me just throw out this question to stir the pot a little more: Does the above verse mean that God the Holy Spirit didn't know at that time as well?
freeatlast
New Member
Van has never suggested that God does not know just that He can limit as to what. And yes that is a part of what some call open theism, but i too could be accused of hold to it but from another angle. However the passage you referred to about the time of the return of the Lord is not about foreknowledge. That is about ordaining. God has set that time for the return of Christ so certainly He knows. No one is saying Jesus is any less God so the suggestion is mute.
Bronconagurski
New Member
"However the passage you referred to about the time of the return of the Lord is not about foreknowledge. That is about ordaining."
I don't agree with the above statement, given the Greek word for know, but let's say you are right. When did God ordain, or set the time?
No, all translations that I trust say that Jesus did not know, imo. The kenosis of Christ stopped him from doing a lot of things that He could have done. If not, then what does this verse mean?
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
But we can agree to disagree. The great mystery of the trinity is not fully understood by mortal men, or at least not by me. And I certainly don't say Jesus is any less God because he limited himself by taking on flesh.
Robert Snow
New Member
Of course, only your interpretation could be correct, right?
You are so full of yourself, I'm surprised it doesn't make you sick to your stomach.
You criticize when others post scripture, yet you never show where their interpretation is incorrect.
preacher4truth
Active Member
No, not really. I showed a link that describes errors in word knowledge, so, yes, I did show where their interpretations are incorrect. OK? :wavey:
Take a look at the word useages of know &c and find out for yourself.
This can serve as a starting point for you:
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/godallover.html
No need to come in and attack if you have no proof yourself for either side. It's pointless really.
What P4T does is reveal how he interprets scripture. Instead of letting scripture inform and teach him truth, he begins with a premise or presupposition and then interprets scripture to conform to it. Any scripture that conflicts with his presupposition is ignored or explained away.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Not really. This is actually your methodology that you describe. You explain away Omniscience with deficient misunderstandings of terms, meanings &c.
The premise I've began with? God knows all things at all times; Omniscience. It's a theological term to describe one of His attributes. Perhaps a thorough study of this in theology would help you to understand this basic truth.
Dogma is given Scripturally as regards to Gods attributes: God knows all things at all times. When other passages seem to negate this by personal interpretation, then ones interpretation stands incorrect. Thus word studies, meanings, language, and context come into play to get an accurate meaning. Instead of this, you've relegated yourself to a proof-text theology.
This is why I say we need to know what the verses mean, not just what they say.
But I'll be an apologist for Gods Omniscience gladly.
Here's yet more for you fellows about omniscience, and how this is under attack:
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/conferences/santa_ana_2003_conference/the-omniscience-of-god/
- Peace
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No, Exo 33:11 says God and Moses spoke face to face, but you denied it.
I do not say God is not omniscient or omnipotent, I say scripture shows God limiting himself at times for a purpose, as when he allowed Jacob to prevail in a wrestling match.
I believe there is a purpose for this. For example, God seems to have limited his omniscience when he asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and exclaimed, for NOW I know that thou fearest God, SEEING thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Why would God limit his knowledge here? I suggest he did it for our benefit. God could have simply said Abraham believed God and left it at that. But how would a believer relate to that?
But by limiting his knowledge at this specific time and place and testing Abraham, he show all believers what true faith is. Faith or trust is more than words, a true Christian must be willing to commit to God, even if that means giving up what is most dear to him.
So, by limiting his knowledge, God was able to demonstrate what true faith is.
That doesn't mean God at the same time was not everywhere, and did not know everything. I believe he only limited his knowledge at this specific time and place for Abraham, in order to teach all believers who should follow.
I do not say God is not omniscient or omnipotent, I say scripture shows God limiting himself at times for a purpose, as when he allowed Jacob to prevail in a wrestling match.
I believe there is a purpose for this. For example, God seems to have limited his omniscience when he asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and exclaimed, for NOW I know that thou fearest God, SEEING thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Why would God limit his knowledge here? I suggest he did it for our benefit. God could have simply said Abraham believed God and left it at that. But how would a believer relate to that?
But by limiting his knowledge at this specific time and place and testing Abraham, he show all believers what true faith is. Faith or trust is more than words, a true Christian must be willing to commit to God, even if that means giving up what is most dear to him.
So, by limiting his knowledge, God was able to demonstrate what true faith is.
That doesn't mean God at the same time was not everywhere, and did not know everything. I believe he only limited his knowledge at this specific time and place for Abraham, in order to teach all believers who should follow.
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