God's knowledge debate

[preacher4truth]

In Psalm 73:11 we read : They say, "How would God know? Does the Most High know anything? (2011 NIV)

In Spurgeon's Treasury of David he comments thusly:"Thus dare the ungodly speak. They flatter themselves that their oppressions and persecutions are unobserved of heaven. If there be a God,is he not too much occupied with other matters to know what is going on upon this world? So they console themselves if judgments be threatened. Boasting of their own knowledge,they yet dare to ask, 'Is there knowledge in the most High?' Well were they called foolish. A God,and not know! This is a solecism in language,a madness of thought. Such,however, is the acted insanity of the graceless theists of this age; theists in name,because avowed infidelity is disreputable,but atheists in practice beyond all question." ( Vol.3,pages 341,342)

That'll preach. Truth!

 

[freeatlast]

In Psalm 73:11 we read : They say, "How would God know? Does the Most High know anything? (2011 NIV)

In Spurgeon's Treasury of David he comments thusly:"Thus dare the ungodly speak. They flatter themselves that their oppressions and persecutions are unobserved of heaven. If there be a God,is he not too much occupied with other matters to know what is going on upon this world? So they console themselves if judgments be threatened. Boasting of their own knowledge,they yet dare to ask, 'Is there knowledge in the most High?' Well were they called foolish. A God,and not know! This is a solecism in language,a madness of thought. Such,however, is the acted insanity of the graceless theists of this age; theists in name,because avowed infidelity is disreputable,but atheists in practice beyond all question." ( Vol.3,pages 341,342)

That is nice, all present tense, but how is that related to this discussion? I have not read where anyone disagrees with those words.

 

[Aaron]

Next we have the assertion the Bible teaches God knows everything. No verse or passage says or suggests this fiction. Not one. The Bible does say God is all knowing, but men have added God is all knowing about everything. This is simply adding to scripture.
They choose to define “all” as referring to everything imaginable in these verses, but define “all” to mean all of whatever group or subject the author has in mind elsewhere in scripture. Thus the doctrine is incoherent.

Does Psalm 147:5 say God’s understanding is infinite? No. The best translation of the word is innumerable. Which means it is beyond our ability to measure, thus unfathomable and unsearchable. But to conclude that understanding beyond our understanding is infinite is illogical and unnecessary. Thus an example of eisegesis.

Hebrews 4:13 refers to our thoughts and hidden motives being laid bare to God, and does not address two issues. Does God obtain, i.e search us, all the time or does He sometimes not search our hearts. The verse does not say. Does this knowledge of His creatures include creatures in existence, or does it extend to creatures not yet created. The verse does not say. So to conclude this verse supports the “everything imaginable” doctrine is again an example of eisegesis.

We could plow through all the listed verses and come to the same “where is the beef” conclusion, yet these verses were posted as if they actually supported the false doctrine.

What rot.

To say that God is not omniscient is to say that there are things outside the scope of His power and authority. Not a god to be trusted for sure.

 

[Skandelon]

While I take issue with Aaron's use of inflammatory terminology, I must agree in principle.

Van, I see no value in arguing against God's full and complete knowledge of all things when you've already admitted that his understanding is unfathomable and beyond measure. It's seems contradictory to say on the one hand that it's immeasurable and on the other try to argue for its limitations. Or, to say its beyond our comprehension and they attempt to define it with limits as if you comprehend it.

 

[quantumfaith]

While I take issue with Aaron's use of inflammatory terminology, I must agree in principle.

Van, I see no value in arguing against God's full and complete knowledge of all things when you've already admitted that his understanding is unfathomable and beyond measure. It's seems contradictory to say on the one hand that it's immeasurable and on the other try to argue for its limitations. Or, to say its beyond our comprehension and they attempt to define it with limits as if you comprehend it.

This seems to be a consistent theme with Aaron. Passions notwithstanding, he seems to find it impossible to disagree in an agreeable manner.

 

[Winman]

I do not know if I agree with Van, but he is being treated shamefully.

The scriptures actually show that God limits himself at times. In Exodus 33:11 the scriptures say the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.

Then, in Exo. 33:18 Moses asks God if he might see his glory.

Then, in Exo 33:20 God tells Moses that he cannot see his face, for no man shall see him and live.

Then, in Exo 33:22-23 God allows Moses to see his back only, he does not allow Moses to see his glory in his face.

Now, how do you explain that? It is obvious God limited himself when he appeared to men, else they would have died on the spot.

And when God wrestled Jacob, God allowed Jacob to prevail over him (Gen 32:24-30).

So it is not heresy to say God limits himself, it is clearly shown in scripture. And perhaps God can also choose to limit his knowledge at times, as he limited his glory when he spoke to Moses, and limited his power when he wrestled Jacob.

Some here think they have God all figured out.

 

[Skandelon]

I agree Winman. But God's self limitations as he relates to his creation immanently does not necessitate a limitation of his ability, understanding or knowledge as a transcendent Being.

I may be misunderstanding Van, but he appears to argue that these biblical examples of God's self imposed limitations somehow prove the orthodox view of "Omniscience" is invalid. I disagree with that strongly.

 

[Aaron]

This seems to be a consistent theme with Aaron. Passions notwithstanding, he seems to find it impossible to disagree in an agreeable manner.

What? A dogmatic assertion of God's ignorance is NOT rot?

 

[Aaron]

Would you prefer the term [snip - please refrain from inflammatory language] maybe? It matters not to me. I'm agreeable to any of them. :jesus:

 

[quantumfaith]

Would you prefer the term heresy? Blasphemy, maybe? It matters not to me. I'm agreeable to any of them. :jesus:

"I" would suggest that you simply say, brother, I really think you have it wrong. Here is why.........

 

[Winman]

I agree Winman. But God's self limitations as he relates to his creation immanently does not necessitate a limitation of his ability, understanding or knowledge as a transcendent Being.

I may be misunderstanding Van, but he appears to argue that these biblical examples of God's self imposed limitations somehow prove the orthodox view of "Omniscience" is invalid. I disagree with that strongly.

Well, if God does limit his knowledge at times as he limited his glory and power, then the orthodox view of God's omniscince is invalid.

I personally look at what the scriptures say, and form my conception from that, I do not conform scripture to my conception.

There are some here who would freak out to suggest God is not always omnipotent, yet the scriptures clearly say Jacob wrestled God, and Jacob prevailed. I don't think you can dismiss scripture like this because it is contrary to orthodox views. If God wants to limit himself for whatever purpose he has, why can't he?

Jesus certainly limited himself when he was made flesh, God does not get tired and require sleep, but Jesus did.

Folks here are always speaking of man's inability to reach up and grasp God, and they are correct. What they overlook is that God came down to our level in order to interact with us in a way that we are able. That is why Jesus became a man.

 

[preacher4truth]

Some here think they have God all figured out.

Not quite.

This is how one feels towards others, whom they believe to be incorrect, since others views disagrees with theirs, and when said person feels they are the one that has all the answers. :thumbsup:

God? All knowing, at all times. Any passages deemed to disagree with this truth? Simply misunderstood.

- Peace

 

[Skandelon]

Well, if God does limit his knowledge at times as he limited his glory and power, then the orthodox view of God's omniscince is invalid.

Well, I guess that might depend on whose "orthodox view" you are reading.

The ones I respect take God's immanent self limitation into account without feeling the need to try and fully reconcile the biblical revelation of God's Omniscience. So, in the same way we might argue that God is 3 but 1, we may also argue He limits his ability while remaining unlimited in ability.

There are some here who would freak out to suggest God is not always omnipotent

I count myself as one of those. He is always omnipotent. :type: <--- That's me freaking out.

I really don't think there is much disagreement between us here. Probably just the way in which we define and explain ourselves.

 

[Winman]

Not quite.

This is how one feels towards others, whom they believe to be incorrect, since others views disagrees with theirs, and when said person feels they are the one that has all the answers. :thumbsup:

God? All knowing, at all times. Any passages deemed to disagree with this truth? Simply misunderstood.

- Peace

I am not the one who says God MUST be this, or God MUST be that. You say God is all knowing, at all times, yet Jesus himself (and Jesus is God) said he did not know the exact day and hour he would return.

Mk 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

I am sure you believe Jesus is God. Didn't Jesus say he does not know the day and the hour he would return?

So, the Father in heaven does know the day and the hour, but Jesus who is God made flesh does not.

So, you cannot say that God never limits himself, it is clearly shown in scripture that at times he does. And in this particular case, what did God limit? Knowledge.

 

[preacher4truth]

I am not the one who says God MUST be this, or God MUST be that. You say God is all knowing, at all times, yet Jesus himself (and Jesus is God) said he did not know the exact day and hour he would return.

Mk 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

I am sure you believe Jesus is God. Didn't Jesus say he does not know the day and the hour he would return?

So, the Father in heaven does know the day and the hour, but Jesus who is God made flesh does not.

So, you cannot say that God never limits himself, it is clearly shown in scripture that at times he does. And in this particular case, what did God limit? Knowledge.

The thing I believe is that God must be all He says He is in Scripture, and that your view that He doesn't know all things must be error and a total misunderstanding on your part, with other erroneous views you hold that He must be.

- Peace

 

[freeatlast]

The thing I believe is that God must be all He says He is in Scripture, and that your view that He doesn't know all things must be error and a total misunderstanding on your part, with other erroneous views you hold that He must be.

- Peace

Agreed and scriptre says God can be grieved, angered, and he can regret he created mankind. That means to me He did not know just how far into sin man would go.

 

[Winman]

The thing I believe is that God must be all He says He is in Scripture, and that your view that He doesn't know all things must be error and a total misunderstanding on your part, with other erroneous views you hold that He must be.

- Peace

If you really believed what scripture said, you would know God limits himself at times.

Exo 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Do the scriptures say God spoke to Moses face to face?

Exo 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

The very request Moses makes in vs. 18 shows that Moses realized God was presenting himself in a limited form to Moses. Moses now wanted to see God in his "glory". So, obviously God was not in his glory when they spoke face to face in vs. 11. And notice God speaks of "all my goodness" in vs. 19. This is God's glory, and in vs. 20 God tells Moses that he cannot see his face in his glory or else he will die.

Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Here we see God presents himself in his glory to Moses, but he does not allow Moses to see his face, only his back parts.

So, if you really believed what the scriptures say, you would agree that God limits himself at times. When he spoke to Moses face to face it was in a limited form, so that Moses would not be killed.

 

[webdog]

One of my favorite statements God made is "let us reason together". He didn't say "reason with me", He said "us...together".

How does omniscience reason, and for what purpose?
what does it mean to "reason" with another?

This is why I appeal to mystery...it is the only thing finite man CAN appeal to given what God has allowed us to know.

 

[jbh28]

That is because you know your assumption is incorrect.

What was the point of this. Are you just trying to pick a fight? This thread is about God knowing everything. Do you agree?

 

[jbh28]

So it is not heresy to say God limits himself, it is clearly shown in scripture. And perhaps God can also choose to limit his knowledge at times, as he limited his glory when he spoke to Moses, and limited his power when he wrestled Jacob.

Some here think they have God all figured out.

When you say "limit his knowledge at times" are you speaking of God not knowing something, or God not using his knowledge.