God's Plan For The Ages

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
The Old Covenant has been fulfilled in Christ. There is no longer Jew nor Greek in the New Covenant Church. It is one Body (see Eph 2:14-22). There will be no return to dealing with Physical Israel in the nationalistic distinctive terms of the Old Covenant as that covenant has been done away with. Unbelieving Jews are grafted back on in to the ONE NEW COVENANT BODY in the same way that Gentiles are--through faith in Christ. The Elect--Jews or Gentiles--are the ones who are in Christ; not those who observe the ceremonial works of the Torah or who are part of some physical ethnic group. "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are of the seed of Abraham" Romans 9:6.

Folks would do well to spend more time reading the New Testmanent--in context--than proof-texting it to come up with some fancy charts or speculative timelines.

IF God is finished with Israel under the "Law and prophet" system of Leadership, then why are the "TWO WITNESSES" (Moses, Law giver/Eliajh, prophet) send to Israel during the Tribulation period??


Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


Might I suggest using the "COMFORTER" to teach/interpret the scripture, "HE" makes it "Simple" and is "NEVER" wrong.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by ascund:
Hey Doubting Thomas

Yes - again what you have written is true - but alas it is but half of the picture.

Individuals are grafted into Christ through faith. God still has plans for the national "root stock" of Rom 11.

When they are saved in one day, Jesus Himself will rule from Jerusalem on David's Throne.

Nothing you have said contradicts this. You only restrict yourself to a discussion of individuals. I agree with your view of individuals. I want you to open your eyes to God's plan for Israel as a nation.

Lloyd

Amen, Brother ascund -- Preach it!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
IF God is finished with Israel under the "Law and prophet" system of Leadership, then why are the "TWO WITNESSES" (Moses, Law giver/Eliajh, prophet) send to Israel during the Tribulation period??


Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


Might I suggest using the "COMFORTER" to teach/interpret the scripture, "HE" makes it "Simple" and is "NEVER" wrong.

AMen, Brother Me4Him - Preach it!

Romans 11:6-7,11 (KJV1769):
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works:
otherwise grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works, then is it no more grace:
otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained
that which he seeketh for; but the election
hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
...
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they
should fall? God forbid: but rather through
their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles,
for to provoke them to jealousy.

Why would God provoke Israeli to jealousy if
He didn't intend to save them someday?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
Are you really claiming that God the Son was created [Day 4]?

There is noting in the chart to prompt such a question. So you are out of order in two meanings of 'order'.

BTW, the answer to your question is NO.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
I'm going to post a series of 8 charts, with text explaining each, all aren't finished at the present. These were drawn by me from my study of the Bible.

Original question by OldRegular:
Are you really claiming that God the Son was created [Day 4]?

Response by EdEdwards:
There is noting in the chart to prompt such a question. So you are out of order in two meanings of 'order'.

BTW, the answer to your question is NO.

Begging your pardon Ed but the chart states that on day 4

Sun,(Jesus) Moon, (Church) Stars, (Children of God) Created

Jesus Christ is the Incarnate Son of God. It would seem to be in order for you to be more careful in what you post.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
IF God is finished with Israel under the "Law and prophet" system of Leadership, then why are the "TWO WITNESSES" (Moses, Law giver/Eliajh, prophet) send to Israel during the Tribulation period??


Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

I don't see in the passage of Scripture that you quote where the two witnesses are identified. How did you come up with the names Moses, Law giver/Eliajh, prophet????

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Me4Him:

Might I suggest using the "COMFORTER" to teach/interpret the scripture, "HE" makes it "Simple" and is "NEVER" wrong.

The problem with that suggestion is that many claim to be using the "Comforter" to teach/interpret Scripture yet arrive at often diametrically opposed conclusions. "He" doesn't inspire contradictions.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:

Might I suggest using the "COMFORTER" to teach/interpret the scripture, "HE" makes it "Simple" and is "NEVER" wrong.

The problem with that suggestion is that many claim to be using the "Comforter" to teach/interpret Scripture yet arrive at often diametrically opposed conclusions. "He" doesn't inspire contradictions. </font>[/QUOTE]...then we use the "comforter" to discern what is being taught by those with diametrically opposed conclusions. At any rate, we do not rely on man, but God.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by webdog:
...then we use the "comforter" to discern what is being taught by those with diametrically opposed conclusions. At any rate, we do not rely on man, but God.

What does that mean exactly, and how does that answer solve the problem of two (or more) people claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit coming up with mutually conflicting interpretations? How is it helpful to discern a difference if one doesn't know who's right simply based on the claim of being led by the Spirit? Truth is not mutually contradictory--at least one of those who claims to be being led by the Spirit has an incorrect interpretation and thus an invalid claim. How do you know who is correct without begging the question?

 

[D28guy]

Old Regular,

It was posted...

"Sun,(Jesus) Moon, (Church) Stars, (Children of God) Created"

And you said...

"Are you really claiming that God the Son was created [Day 4]?

Where in the world do you get the idea that the chart is saying Jesus Christ was created???

It should be clear that what is being said is that the Sun, Moon, and Stars were created, and those three are prophetic representaions of Christ, the church, and children of God.

How could you think it meant Jesus was created when the scriptures indicate that Jesus Christ is the one doing the creating?

God bless,

Mike

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
...then we use the "comforter" to discern what is being taught by those with diametrically opposed conclusions. At any rate, we do not rely on man, but God.

What does that mean exactly, and how does that answer solve the problem of two (or more) people claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit coming up with mutually conflicting interpretations? How is it helpful to discern a difference if one doesn't know who's right simply based on the claim of being led by the Spirit? Truth is not mutually contradictory--at least one of those who claims to be being led by the Spirit has an incorrect interpretation and thus an invalid claim. How do you know who is correct without begging the question? </font>[/QUOTE]If it lines up with scripture (righlty dividing the truth), and not most, but all scripture . For instance, there are numerous scholars who hold to reformed theology, some with PHD's. There are great pastors that do, too. Sometimes they twist the scripture to fit theology, instead of the opposite. When comparing their theology to scripture, it can be refuted in some areas. This doesn't mean in all areas, but some do not pass the test. Every reformer I know has come to their belief's from reading the work of other reformers. I don't believe anyone has been saved by believing reformed theology initially(I know some will deny this).

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by D28guy:
Old Regular,

It was posted...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Sun,(Jesus) Moon, (Church) Stars, (Children of God) Created"

And you said...

"Are you really claiming that God the Son was created [Day 4]?

Where in the world do you get the idea that the chart is saying Jesus Christ was created???

It should be clear that what is being said is that the Sun, Moon, and Stars were created, and those three are prophetic representaions of Christ, the church, and children of God.

How could you think it meant Jesus was created when the scriptures indicate that Jesus Christ is the one doing the creating?

God bless,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]I questioned what was posted!

Also to say that

the Sun, Moon, and Stars were created, and those three are prophetic representaions of Christ, the church, and children of God.

borders on pagan nonsense.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by webdog:
If it lines up with scripture (righlty dividing the truth), and not most, but all scripture .

But everyone claims their theological system lines up with all of Scripture. (Or else, if they believed otherwise, they wouldn't hold to that particular system!) Calvinists, Arminians, and curious hybrids all claim that their systems line up with all of Scripture and are "Spirit led". But all can't be right. Who is to say whose system lines up with "all of Scripture" without begging the question of interpretation? Everyone is sure that his particular one lines up with all of Scripture and that the others do not. But all can't be right.

 

[D28guy]

RegularBaptist,

In referance to this...

the Sun, Moon, and Stars were created, and those three are prophetic representaions of Christ, the church, and children of God."

You said...

"borders on pagan nonsense."

What you are claiming is nonsense.

I'm not saying I agree with everything in the material being posted. I can tell that much of it I do agree with, but I've just sort of skimmed through it so I dont know if I agree with everything.

But to have a conviction that one thing is a prophetic "type" or "symbol" of a different thing is not a pagan idea at all. God has done that very thing multitudes of times in the scriptures.

What would be coming from paganism would be worshipping the sun, moon, or stars.

Not believing they prophetically represent or point to something else.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[OldRegular]

D28guy

Many pagan religions were based on worship of the Sun, the Moon, or the Stars.

The Chinese used to worship dogs. Can you find a type for this. God did create dogs.

Enough said.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
IF God is finished with Israel under the "Law and prophet" system of Leadership, then why are the "TWO WITNESSES" (Moses, Law giver/Eliajh, prophet) send to Israel during the Tribulation period??


Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

I don't see in the passage of Scripture that you quote where the two witnesses are identified. How did you come up with the names Moses, Law giver/Eliajh, prophet???? </font>[/QUOTE]Go back to the original post, chart "Spiritual vs. Literal", read that "text".

There's only "TWO" "Olives trees", "TWO" candles sticks, not "three".

Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

"WHO WERE THE TWO WHO APPEARED WITH JESUS"???

Mt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias (Elijah) talking with him.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
Also to say that </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />the Sun, Moon, and Stars were created, and those three are prophetic representaions of Christ, the church, and children of God.

borders on pagan nonsense. </font>[/QUOTE]Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;

You have to understand what the "SYMBOLS" in scripture mean before you can understand it's meaning.

Ge 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Scripture now tell you what these "SYMBOLS" represent.

Ge 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed?

Shall I (Father/sun
and thy mother (moon/any assemble of God's people, Jew/Gentile, church is "Jesus's "BRIDE".)
and thy brethren (stars)

indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

This earth, and all it's "SYSTEMS" are pattern after the "Spiritual".

Just as the "MOON" gets it's "LIGHT" from the "SUN" and reflects it to a "world in darkness", so does the Church, "moon", but it's SUN is spelled "SON", as in Jesus.


God isn't referring to the "Natural stars" in the following passages.

Ge 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven,

Ps 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

And why shouldn't he know all their names, he wrote all their names in the "Lamb's book of Life".

Now that you know what the Sun/moon/stars represents, read this verse.

Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound. (Trib period)

The "LIGHT" of all seven spirits of God will be "FOCUSED" on Israel for a time during the trib, and Israel will "SHINE" (Miracles/exploits) with the strength of Jesus.

Re 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God,

Da 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

However, toward the last of the trib, the "LIGHT" will go out.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Mr 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

The "literal darkness" that descends on the earth is the manifestation of a "Spiritual darkness", The AC killing everyone, Jesus having to shorten those days.

Ac 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

These "physical events" described are really manifestations of "Spiritual events", like water baptism manifest a "spiritual Baptism".

[ September 22, 2005, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Me4Him ]

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:

Originally posted by Me4Him:

The problem with that suggestion is that many claim to be using the "Comforter" to teach/interpret Scripture yet arrive at often diametrically opposed conclusions. "He" doesn't inspire contradictions.

"EGGACTLY", and a person who is "listening" to the spirit will recognize a "theory" very quickly.

"Babes in Christ" (new Christian) may not be able to discern, but "Meat Eaters" will be able to punch more holes their "Theory" than a 10 gauge shotgun, shooting #7.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- You rock*

note: * as in 'Jesus rock o' my soul',
the solid rock, the Rock of Ages,

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Ge 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

According to your false interpretation you would have the Son of God bowing down to Joseph.

the Sun, Moon, and Stars were created, and those three are prophetic representaions of Christ, the church, and children of God.

Need anything more be said?